- 12,102
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CP reminded me of this thread and thought I'd put a bow on LeBron's CLE return:
I can't change anyone's opinion. I'm the original Nick Wright & still would place Jordan #1..for now. And you can still talk me into Kareem placing ahead. But there is going to be a growing case. Jordan had 11 full years in Chicago (only 18 games in '86, only 17 in '95) - and two with Washington. LeBron just finished a full year 15. The opinion is largely going to turn generational, sub 30 year olds will view it differently than those older. Whatever, it's going to be those two at the end of it and lines will be drawn.
But, I have a hard time seeing anyone have him outside the Top 4 grouping of MJ, Kareem, Russell and now LeBron. The totality of his career already is a lot to overlook even if you wanted to. Guys like Magic and Bird are being lapped and there are more of the (similar) narratives to poke into Wilt than Bron at this point.
He just finished year 15 posting 28/9/9 on 54% in all 82 games led the league in minutes per game. Throw in 22 more playoff games at 34/9/9 on 54%. I'm of the opinion that making the Finals this year was his second greatest accomplishment behind winning the title in '16. That team flat out stunk.
The East is weak, but he's been tested most seasons. 2011 down 1-0 in Chicago without home court. 2012 down 2-1 in Indiana, down 8 at halftime in G4 without Bosh. 2012 down 3-2 in Boston. 2013 Pacers series went 7. '14 was the weakest Heat team but never a test, '15 down 2-1 in Chicago buzzer beater to win G4...'16 and '17 went untouched and this year got pushed further than any time before in Rnd 1 and vs Boston. In the end, making 8 straight finals is absurd and it hasn't exactly been a cakewalk some years.
This is doing it year after year, and his durability and commitment to being the best athlete in the world might be the most impressive aspect of him now:
Most consecutive seasons out of opening round regardless of format:
LeBron 13
Russell 13
Shaq 12
Pippen 11
Magic 10
Bird 9
Kobe 8
Duncan 8
Kareem 8
Wilt 7
Jordan 6
West 5
Forget the Finals, this is just consecutive seasons out of Rnd 2 since expansion in '84:
LeBron 8
Magic & Kareem 6
Jordan & Pippen 5
Bird 5
Kobe & Shaq 3
Duncan & Malone 3
His regular season total numbers currently are:
7th All Time in Points
59th in rebounds
11th in assists
16th in steals
114th in blocks
54th in games played
18th in minutes played
2nd in average PER
If you just gave him 5 years at 75 games with 24/6/6 with a steal and a block a game - and said that's it, career is over (personally think he's playing until he's 40 and leaving the door open to play with his son - and he has no sign of slowing down now)
He'd rank:
1st All Time in Points (and first ever at 40K)
32nd in rebounds
3rd in assists
7th in steals
53rd in blocks
3rd in games played
2nd in minutes played (given 34ish a game)
I would say 5 years left of his career is a very modest projection and you see where the totals end up. For him, in my mind a game of 30/8/8 on 50% or better always feels like his A game. Since he came into the league it's only been done 256 times, by anyone. He holds 72 of those 256. Only has occurred 41 times in the post-season. He has 20 of those 41.
And I don't even really care about the numbers. His smarts, his athleticism and impact on a basketball game is of course what is most important - along with a skill level that has continued to grow and evolve over the years. There is no situation he hasn't seen and no longer any spot in which you can make him feel uncomfortable.
His total playoff numbers:
1st in points
6th in rebounds
3rd in assists
1st in steals
15th in blocks
1st in minutes played
4th in games
This is where he's lapping people. He's about a post-season and a half away from doubling Larry Bird's post-season points total. Nobody ever hit 6K, he's 100 shy away of 7K and probably tops 9K when it's done. He'll be in 1st in points, games, minutes played, steals. 2nd in assists, 3rd or 4th in rebounds.
He's 7th in Finals games played, 2nd in points and assists.
He already is 12x All NBA 1st team (most ever). The 4 MVP's will feel low, but whatever. Voter fatigue and no, he doesn't go full speed all year long. Other guys are great, too.
The 3-6 mark is what will continue to be held against him. I always had 4 in my mind of what *felt* right. If he stays in Cleveland he won't win another, and that's fine and maybe he's okay with just staying home. But I doubt that and I'm guessing his move this summer will put him in a place where he can contend and try to get to 4 or 5. But the one in Cleveland is what he needed, for narrative and by all accounts for himself. That one felt different and made his career, for the most part, complete. They're not all created equal, a certain player is finding that out now.
But the Finals losses to some, is a stain. We like to prop up a team accomplishment but conveniently leave out the competent coaches (Phil, Riley, Pop) and front offices that have gone hand in hand with 4, 5, 6 time title winners. I think he had that in Miami but chose the route of unfinished business. We correlate 'help' with teammates and not other surrounding aspects. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I'll be waiting a while before the Cavs doing anything ever again (he does not run that team and there are countless examples of this despite the narrative). And the Heat, as well run as I think they are, are stuck in basketball purgatory. Right where they were before he arrived. The best thing he picked up in Miami was a greater commitment to his body and conditioning and it's paying off. He took his greatest advantage and pushed it further. It is worth watching how many of his peers can play 15+ high level seasons, is this is a changing of the times or is he truly a genetic freak? Probably somewhere in the middle.
And hey, some of the critiques are his fault! he had his pick two times around, and now a 3rd. He picked Kevin Love. He had the best offensive player he's played with decide that he'd rather be elsewhere. Sometimes he flexes power for roster spots of old friends. He doesn't have time to spend watching young players grow and he turns his career into a year by year grind - there is no big picture view these teams can take - it's a gift and a curse. I get why some still roll their eyes at him, I do it too. The cast on the hand after G4, some of the things he says. I get it. Some still don't understand why he doesn't barrel to the rim and score every play. Despite the limitations of the human body and how basketball actually works (guess what, there's a lot of help behind those Steph Curry switches), I even understand in some instances. He’s such an overbearing force - that offensive systems don’t truly exist, he is the system. And that is almost always the better option (actually yes, always). But does it knock some guys out of rhythm, kill some confidence? I’m sure, but he’s too good to not accommodate. It’s why Kyrie was such a good fit for him, he could go get his own and it was the right blend. Anyway, in the big picture, with what he's done.. If you're arguing him outside of the Top 3 or 4 at this point and that the pace he's at, we're probably just going to agree to disagree. And if the failing of his career is being 2% less than Michael Jordan, I think he's done okay.
I don't know what he does now. LA doesn't feel quite good enough, even with Paul George. Houston is a hired gun move that has the window of 1, 2 years before that roster craps out. I don't like it. Boston can't and should not happen. Staying should not happen. Miami screwed their cap 20x over and a return does not seem feasible. I hope it's Philly. Philly has the most underrated and overlooked pro basketball history and unlike the Lakers, he's instantly far and away thee guy. There is no shadow - nothing he does in LA will be good enough, Philly has a fairly rich history that he can take to another level. There's young talent and assets still to work with - and a perfect landing spot for a GM who he actually likes (David Griffin). It keeps him East, and creates a rivalry that could be incredible with Boston. It makes the most sense to me.
So, my opinion of his game has not changed, amazingly he avoided the route of being Darvin Ham. He's just a little wiser, a little more skilled and a little bit older (he's for the most part superman, but there are limits that show every now and then with age).
In the end - he's great, it's still okay and warranted to nitpick some aspects. You won't be able to deny his body of work. There are chapters still unwritten, as a fan, that's the most exciting and rewarding part of the journey. He's squeezing everything out of it.
I can't change anyone's opinion. I'm the original Nick Wright & still would place Jordan #1..for now. And you can still talk me into Kareem placing ahead. But there is going to be a growing case. Jordan had 11 full years in Chicago (only 18 games in '86, only 17 in '95) - and two with Washington. LeBron just finished a full year 15. The opinion is largely going to turn generational, sub 30 year olds will view it differently than those older. Whatever, it's going to be those two at the end of it and lines will be drawn.
But, I have a hard time seeing anyone have him outside the Top 4 grouping of MJ, Kareem, Russell and now LeBron. The totality of his career already is a lot to overlook even if you wanted to. Guys like Magic and Bird are being lapped and there are more of the (similar) narratives to poke into Wilt than Bron at this point.
He just finished year 15 posting 28/9/9 on 54% in all 82 games led the league in minutes per game. Throw in 22 more playoff games at 34/9/9 on 54%. I'm of the opinion that making the Finals this year was his second greatest accomplishment behind winning the title in '16. That team flat out stunk.
The East is weak, but he's been tested most seasons. 2011 down 1-0 in Chicago without home court. 2012 down 2-1 in Indiana, down 8 at halftime in G4 without Bosh. 2012 down 3-2 in Boston. 2013 Pacers series went 7. '14 was the weakest Heat team but never a test, '15 down 2-1 in Chicago buzzer beater to win G4...'16 and '17 went untouched and this year got pushed further than any time before in Rnd 1 and vs Boston. In the end, making 8 straight finals is absurd and it hasn't exactly been a cakewalk some years.
This is doing it year after year, and his durability and commitment to being the best athlete in the world might be the most impressive aspect of him now:
Most consecutive seasons out of opening round regardless of format:
LeBron 13
Russell 13
Shaq 12
Pippen 11
Magic 10
Bird 9
Kobe 8
Duncan 8
Kareem 8
Wilt 7
Jordan 6
West 5
Forget the Finals, this is just consecutive seasons out of Rnd 2 since expansion in '84:
LeBron 8
Magic & Kareem 6
Jordan & Pippen 5
Bird 5
Kobe & Shaq 3
Duncan & Malone 3
His regular season total numbers currently are:
7th All Time in Points
59th in rebounds
11th in assists
16th in steals
114th in blocks
54th in games played
18th in minutes played
2nd in average PER
If you just gave him 5 years at 75 games with 24/6/6 with a steal and a block a game - and said that's it, career is over (personally think he's playing until he's 40 and leaving the door open to play with his son - and he has no sign of slowing down now)
He'd rank:
1st All Time in Points (and first ever at 40K)
32nd in rebounds
3rd in assists
7th in steals
53rd in blocks
3rd in games played
2nd in minutes played (given 34ish a game)
I would say 5 years left of his career is a very modest projection and you see where the totals end up. For him, in my mind a game of 30/8/8 on 50% or better always feels like his A game. Since he came into the league it's only been done 256 times, by anyone. He holds 72 of those 256. Only has occurred 41 times in the post-season. He has 20 of those 41.
And I don't even really care about the numbers. His smarts, his athleticism and impact on a basketball game is of course what is most important - along with a skill level that has continued to grow and evolve over the years. There is no situation he hasn't seen and no longer any spot in which you can make him feel uncomfortable.
His total playoff numbers:
1st in points
6th in rebounds
3rd in assists
1st in steals
15th in blocks
1st in minutes played
4th in games
This is where he's lapping people. He's about a post-season and a half away from doubling Larry Bird's post-season points total. Nobody ever hit 6K, he's 100 shy away of 7K and probably tops 9K when it's done. He'll be in 1st in points, games, minutes played, steals. 2nd in assists, 3rd or 4th in rebounds.
He's 7th in Finals games played, 2nd in points and assists.
He already is 12x All NBA 1st team (most ever). The 4 MVP's will feel low, but whatever. Voter fatigue and no, he doesn't go full speed all year long. Other guys are great, too.
The 3-6 mark is what will continue to be held against him. I always had 4 in my mind of what *felt* right. If he stays in Cleveland he won't win another, and that's fine and maybe he's okay with just staying home. But I doubt that and I'm guessing his move this summer will put him in a place where he can contend and try to get to 4 or 5. But the one in Cleveland is what he needed, for narrative and by all accounts for himself. That one felt different and made his career, for the most part, complete. They're not all created equal, a certain player is finding that out now.
But the Finals losses to some, is a stain. We like to prop up a team accomplishment but conveniently leave out the competent coaches (Phil, Riley, Pop) and front offices that have gone hand in hand with 4, 5, 6 time title winners. I think he had that in Miami but chose the route of unfinished business. We correlate 'help' with teammates and not other surrounding aspects. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I'll be waiting a while before the Cavs doing anything ever again (he does not run that team and there are countless examples of this despite the narrative). And the Heat, as well run as I think they are, are stuck in basketball purgatory. Right where they were before he arrived. The best thing he picked up in Miami was a greater commitment to his body and conditioning and it's paying off. He took his greatest advantage and pushed it further. It is worth watching how many of his peers can play 15+ high level seasons, is this is a changing of the times or is he truly a genetic freak? Probably somewhere in the middle.
And hey, some of the critiques are his fault! he had his pick two times around, and now a 3rd. He picked Kevin Love. He had the best offensive player he's played with decide that he'd rather be elsewhere. Sometimes he flexes power for roster spots of old friends. He doesn't have time to spend watching young players grow and he turns his career into a year by year grind - there is no big picture view these teams can take - it's a gift and a curse. I get why some still roll their eyes at him, I do it too. The cast on the hand after G4, some of the things he says. I get it. Some still don't understand why he doesn't barrel to the rim and score every play. Despite the limitations of the human body and how basketball actually works (guess what, there's a lot of help behind those Steph Curry switches), I even understand in some instances. He’s such an overbearing force - that offensive systems don’t truly exist, he is the system. And that is almost always the better option (actually yes, always). But does it knock some guys out of rhythm, kill some confidence? I’m sure, but he’s too good to not accommodate. It’s why Kyrie was such a good fit for him, he could go get his own and it was the right blend. Anyway, in the big picture, with what he's done.. If you're arguing him outside of the Top 3 or 4 at this point and that the pace he's at, we're probably just going to agree to disagree. And if the failing of his career is being 2% less than Michael Jordan, I think he's done okay.
I don't know what he does now. LA doesn't feel quite good enough, even with Paul George. Houston is a hired gun move that has the window of 1, 2 years before that roster craps out. I don't like it. Boston can't and should not happen. Staying should not happen. Miami screwed their cap 20x over and a return does not seem feasible. I hope it's Philly. Philly has the most underrated and overlooked pro basketball history and unlike the Lakers, he's instantly far and away thee guy. There is no shadow - nothing he does in LA will be good enough, Philly has a fairly rich history that he can take to another level. There's young talent and assets still to work with - and a perfect landing spot for a GM who he actually likes (David Griffin). It keeps him East, and creates a rivalry that could be incredible with Boston. It makes the most sense to me.
So, my opinion of his game has not changed, amazingly he avoided the route of being Darvin Ham. He's just a little wiser, a little more skilled and a little bit older (he's for the most part superman, but there are limits that show every now and then with age).
In the end - he's great, it's still okay and warranted to nitpick some aspects. You won't be able to deny his body of work. There are chapters still unwritten, as a fan, that's the most exciting and rewarding part of the journey. He's squeezing everything out of it.
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). But I’m not tripping over where you got him.
