NIKE Air Jordan IV OG White Fire Red: Black Friday 2020: Nov. 28th

[staffsgtdignam]

However, in terms of shape, if they put the right product managers on the task, they could get it right, and there would certainly be a positive ROI despite having to redo the mold. They could also put appropriate quality leather, even if it's not exactly the same as the OG for practical sourcing challenges.

Yeah the issue is also with popular models like the 11s, they produce even left and right shoes in different factories so you have to figure they probably have multiple tooling molds for even the same shoe (I.e. Air Jordan 9 left shoes produced in Factory A and Air Jordan 9 right shoes produced in Factory B). This even creates supply chain issues with changing the mold so you would have to plan this carefully to ensure that scheduling was appropriate to keep production going. Not saying this is impossible but I’d be willing to be the VAST majority of people buying 9s don’t two s’hitz about the Jumpman not being accurate to the retro lol

Who knows though, maybe (hopefully) this will change-at least on the 9s where it is a glaring issue to all of us here on NT.

 

[JRepp23]

Yeah the issue is also with popular models like the 11s, they produce even left and right shoes in different factories so you have to figure they probably have multiple tooling molds for even the same shoe (I.e. Air Jordan 9 left shoes produced in Factory A and Air Jordan 9 right shoes produced in Factory B). This even creates supply chain issues with changing the mold so you would have to plan this carefully to ensure that scheduling was appropriate to keep production going. Not saying this is impossible but I’d be willing to be the VAST majority of people buying 9s don’t two s’hitz about the Jumpman not being accurate to the retro lol

Who knows though, maybe (hopefully) this will change-at least on the 9s where it is a glaring issue to all of us here on NT.

The 9s honestly piss me off the most. NO reason they still put that mini reverse Jumpman on those. The shoe to me is totally different with a small JM. Somewhere in 2010 they must have "lost" a mold.

 

[rainking]

Anyone who still thinks Nike can't recreate exact replicas is out of their mind. That portion of this topic should never be discussed again LOL

The supposed concern for collectors of OGs and the value of OGs has always been a dubious argument, at BEST. It fundamentally misunderstands collectors and why old, original items of any kind are valuable and desirable.

Who are all of these supposed collectors? We know they exist. MJO23DAN is one we know here. But how many people like Marvin exist in the entire world? And of those collectors, how many of them would tell Nike, NO, absolutely we do not want an exact remake? I suspect none, or very few. It would have zero impact on the value of their collections. The whole thing is a red herring.

I'm making this up, but here's what I think really happened, almost certainly at least in part:

They launched the whole retro thing at a time when it was a niche of a niche. It was a fun thing on the side, not a core business arm. Not many people were self-made experts on this stuff, these shoes, all the little details. The internet was a lot different, social media didn't exist. Getting the retros exact just wasn't a priority.

Only hardcore nerds knew the difference at the time, anyway. And if Nike could manufacture the shoes quicker and cheaper by changing some of the OG details, that's what it did, because only about five people appeared to even notice or care. As time went on, and the culture and information-sharing started to change, they had painted themselves into a corner with their **** quality and half-*** remakes, all in the name of more profit. What were they going to do, SAY that? No way. Maybe that's why you get Tinker spouting this company line, as well. I think you'd have to be pretty damn tight with the guy for him to look at you and say, well the thing is, we cheapened the whole thing to increase margins, and it totally worked, and it still works because the sell-through on the retro product is insane, so why as a business should we invest in making big changes to the shoes? Sometimes, like with the recent XIs, we throw you guys a bone just to keep you on the hook.

No one at Nike will ever say that. But if I had to bet $10K right now on what is really behind all of this, that's where I'm putting my money.

 

[JRepp23]

Anyone who still thinks Nike can't recreate exact replicas is out of their mind. That portion of this topic should never be discussed again LOL

The supposed concern for collectors of OGs and the value of OGs has always been a dubious argument, at BEST. It fundamentally misunderstands collectors and why old, original items of any kind are valuable and desirable.

Who are all of these supposed collectors? We know they exist. MJO23DAN is one we know here. But how many people like Marvin exist in the entire world? And of those collectors, how many of them would tell Nike, NO, absolutely we do not want an exact remake? I suspect none, or very few. It would have zero impact on the value of their collections. The whole thing is a red herring.

I'm making this up, but here's what I think really happened, almost certainly at least in part:

They launched the whole retro thing at a time when it was a niche of a niche. It was a fun thing on the side, not a core business arm. Not many people were self-made experts on this stuff, these shoes, all the little details. The internet was a lot different, social media didn't exist. Getting the retros exact just wasn't a priority.

Only hardcore nerds knew the difference at the time, anyway. And if Nike could manufacture the shoes quicker and cheaper by changing some of the OG details, that's what it did, because only about five people appeared to even notice or care. As time went on, and the culture and information-sharing started to change, they had painted themselves into a corner with their **** quality and half-*** remakes, all in the name of more profit. What were they going to do, SAY that? No way. Maybe that's why you get Tinker spouting this company line, as well. I think you'd have to be pretty damn tight with the guy for him to look at you and say, well the thing is, we cheapened the whole thing to increase margins, and it totally worked, and it still works because the sell-through on the retro product is insane, so why as a business should we invest in making big changes to the shoes? Sometimes, like with the recent XIs, we throw you guys a bone just to keep you on the hook.

No one at Nike will ever say that. But if I had to bet $10K right now on what is really behind all of this, that's where I'm putting my money.

Cannot disagree at all with this.

 

[spoonmanofthehour]

Anyone who still thinks Nike can't recreate exact replicas is out of their mind. That portion of this topic should never be discussed again LOL

The supposed concern for collectors of OGs and the value of OGs has always been a dubious argument, at BEST. It fundamentally misunderstands collectors and why old, original items of any kind are valuable and desirable.

Who are all of these supposed collectors? We know they exist. MJO23DAN is one we know here. But how many people like Marvin exist in the entire world? And of those collectors, how many of them would tell Nike, NO, absolutely we do not want an exact remake? I suspect none, or very few. It would have zero impact on the value of their collections. The whole thing is a red herring.

I'm making this up, but here's what I think really happened, almost certainly at least in part:

They launched the whole retro thing at a time when it was a niche of a niche. It was a fun thing on the side, not a core business arm. Not many people were self-made experts on this stuff, these shoes, all the little details. The internet was a lot different, social media didn't exist. Getting the retros exact just wasn't a priority.

Only hardcore nerds knew the difference at the time, anyway. And if Nike could manufacture the shoes quicker and cheaper by changing some of the OG details, that's what it did, because only about five people appeared to even notice or care. As time went on, and the culture and information-sharing started to change, they had painted themselves into a corner with their **** quality and half-*** remakes, all in the name of more profit. What were they going to do, SAY that? No way. Maybe that's why you get Tinker spouting this company line, as well. I think you'd have to be pretty damn tight with the guy for him to look at you and say, well the thing is, we cheapened the whole thing to increase margins, and it totally worked, and it still works because the sell-through on the retro product is insane, so why as a business should we invest in making big changes to the shoes? Sometimes, like with the recent XIs, we throw you guys a bone just to keep you on the hook.

No one at Nike will ever say that. But if I had to bet $10K right now on what is really behind all of this, that's where I'm putting my money.

Only $10K? CHEAP ***.

 

[JRepp23]

The most recent Shadow 10 was pretty 1:1

Those Aqua 8s in 2015 were pretty good also. They took me there way more than the 07 did.

 

[staffsgtdignam]

As time went on, and the culture and information-sharing started to change, they had painted themselves into a corner with their **** quality and half-*** remakes, all in the name of more profit. What were they going to do, SAY that? No way.

This is also hilarious because, in 2014, OG 1s were priced at $140, now they START at $170 yet the product isn’t significantly better, in fact in many cases it’s the same or worse as the shoes in 2014 lol They pitched the “remastered” $190+ retros starting in 2015 but there were still tons of glaring issues with retros that existed before (like the tooling on the 9s that I pointed out before). I think Nike pockets “improvements” to retros to push future price increases .. Like the recent 85 retro 1s have fixed some glaring issues but STILL haven’t fixed the OG swoosh, which honestly is a pretty glaring issue when you compare it to actual OG 1985 1s...

 

[jordan4eva23]

This is also hilarious because, in 2014, OG 1s were priced at $140, now they START at $170 yet the product isn’t significantly better, in fact in many cases it’s the same or worse as the shoes in 2014 lol They pitched the “remastered” $190+ retros starting in 2015 but there were still tons of glaring issues with retros that existed before (like the tooling on the 9s that I pointed out before). I think Nike pockets “improvements” to retros to push future price increases .. Like the recent 85 retro 1s have fixed some glaring issues but STILL haven’t fixed the OG swoosh, which honestly is a pretty glaring issue when you compare it to actual OG 1985 1s...

I completely agree on the pricing of the 1s.

heck dunks and sb still are in their price ranges of 90-120, and they are technically almost the same!

 

[rainking]

This is also hilarious because, in 2014, OG 1s were priced at $140, now they START at $170 yet the product isn’t significantly better, in fact in many cases it’s the same or worse as the shoes in 2014 lol They pitched the “remastered” $190+ retros starting in 2015 but there were still tons of glaring issues with retros that existed before (like the tooling on the 9s that I pointed out before). I think Nike pockets “improvements” to retros to push future price increases .. Like the recent 85 retro 1s have fixed some glaring issues but STILL haven’t fixed the OG swoosh, which honestly is a pretty glaring issue when you compare it to actual OG 1985 1s...

I completely agree on the pricing of the 1s.

heck dunks and sb still are in their price ranges of 90-120, and they are technically almost the same!

Of course. We've covered this, too: The pricing has zero to do with anything other than what the data say Nike can charge and still have a hugely high sell-through rate, or complete sellouts of popular models. It's nothing to do with a given shoe's "tech."

The general topic of OGs vs retros and why this and why that gets kicked around nonstop. Some people need to open their eyes to reality if they really want to understand the answers. This is ALL driven by executives, product-line managers and other professional business people, not by sneakerheads who happen to work over there. Everything they do is done for a reason, be it a good or bad or smart or stupid reason. And the reasons aren't romantic things like "lost molds," "different materials today," "protecting OG collectors," or anything other than maximizing the bottom line without slowing growth.

The reality is, JB has grown year-on-year to a hugely profitable enterprise. Pushing through any changes that are going to require investment will have to have a serious, demonstrable benefit to that bottom line.

 

[staffsgtdignam]

The reality is, JB has grown year-on-year to a hugely profitable enterprise. Pushing through any changes that are going to require investment will have to have a serious, demonstrable benefit to that bottom line.

So you’re saying I should give up on my dream of the tooling on the 9s ever being fixed? Probably not the worst advice, in all honesty lol

 

[rainking]

So you’re saying I should give up on my dream of the tooling on the 9s ever being fixed? Probably not the worst advice, in all honesty lol

I’m not saying that. They do make changes from time to time, several positive ones recently. All I’m saying is, every time this topic comes up, we go off down trails theorizing about lost molds and what’s technically possible and protecting OGs. That’s all just smoke and not what’s driving what does and doesn’t happen in terms of how it makes the retros. None of those things are an issue, or remotely insurmountable. They’re just simple excuses from Nike to deflect from what it really does to manipulate the consumers. The thing that annoys me is, I don’t believe it’s necessary. If JB dropped a Concord retro, for one example, every year or two, then maybe. But when you go seven years between releases, I believe that if you just put out the same quality version of them every time, the demand would always be there, regardless. No need to play this game of making every version different in some way.

 

[bradnsu]

I don’t know if a lot of you cats out there follow this brother on IG but dude is a beast dude literally breaks RETRO JORDANS down & restructures them in OG FORM as well as other customs

 

[RyGuy45]

I know we've gotten off-topic, but I'll throw in one more on how the evolution works w/ JB. We are looking for subtle improvement throughout the releases, and while the quality of the recent metallic 5's (as mentioned) was good we also are going backwards with the shape. The 2016 were tanks - which is not what the 5 really is supposed to be. Not many people seemed to care, so what do I know.

 

[rob1ne]

I don’t know if a lot of you cats out there follow this brother on IG but dude is a beast dude literally breaks RETRO JORDANS down & restructures them in OG FORM as well as other customs

He's the real deal, hopefully his business grow so he can go worldwide

 

[pwguy]

His work is awesome, but it's not a business unless he's charging thousands. To be a business it must be scalable, which it's not until he gets people working for him that can produce the same results. Otherwise it's just like buying an ice cream truck...it's not a business, it's buying yourself a job....When you're not working it makes no money. A scalable business needs to make money when you're not there.

I imagine this work takes a LOT of hours. It's a hobby until he can charge enough, and even then, the pot'l is limited until he has others working for him.

 

[staffsgtdignam]

His work is awesome, but it's not a business unless he's charging thousands. To be a business it must be scalable, which it's not until he gets people working for him that can produce the same results. Otherwise it's just like buying an ice cream truck...it's not a business, it's buying yourself a job....When you're not working it makes no money. A scalable business needs to make money when you're not there.

I imagine this work takes a LOT of hours. It's a hobby until he can charge enough, and even then, the pot'l is limited until he has others working for him.

I wish Nike/JB would hire someone like him as a product designer vs some of the idiots who currently work there. I swear, based on some of these designs and cws that get approved, I’m pretty sure some of these people know little/nothing about sneakers, even if they have great business skills, HBS/Wharton/other top MBAs or top design degrees and whatnot.

 

[forest hills]

Whatever happened to Tony Tobacco? Was he banned or did he leave the site? I feel like he'd have a field day discussing the differences both major and minor between the OGs and I guess "current" OGs. Though I admit the new high '85 1s and those red cement 3s give me hope that we'll see similar effort put into fixing the shape and material quality of all OG retros somewhere down the line

 

[1978S]

I don’t know if a lot of you cats out there follow this brother on IG but dude is a beast dude literally breaks RETRO JORDANS down & restructures them in OG FORM as well as other customs

I wish Nike/JB would hire someone like him as a product designer vs some of the idiots who currently work there.

I been saying JB should hire hoopfr3sh or someone with that mindset.

If JB released shoes in the OG shape/form, the kids would still buy it, and, it would please the trueschool heads at the same time.

 

[3god]

OG shapes are too ****in good. Wtf man.

 

[drunkmonk36]

Those Aqua 8s in 2015 were pretty good also. They took me there way more than the 07 did.

Yea I thought the Aquas were decent as well. Those and the Concord 11's really only ones I've been happy with. Bordeaux and Hare 7's weren't too far off. Thinking of selling my Infrared 6's so hope the Carmines come close, and really wanting these 4's!

 

[staffsgtdignam]

Yea I thought the Aquas were decent as well. Those and the Concord 11's really only ones I've been happy with. Bordeaux and Hare 7's weren't too far off. Thinking of selling my Infrared 6's so hope the Carmines come close, and really wanting these 4's!

They get hate because of the stitched “45” but, in terms of a retro of the actual movie shoe, the 2016 Space Jams were phenomenal. Honestly, even the packaging was incredible-one of the best modern retros JB has released, IMHO.

 

[SteveSteve72]

Whatever happened to Tony Tobacco? Was he banned or did he leave the site? I feel like he'd have a field day discussing the differences both major and minor between the OGs and I guess "current" OGs. Though I admit the new high '85 1s and those red cement 3s give me hope that we'll see similar effort put into fixing the shape and material quality of all OG retros somewhere down the line

he got himself banned running his mouth in General forum.

 

[forest hills]

he got himself banned running his mouth in General forum.

As sad as it is that he's gone, that definitely seems like a very Tony Tobacco way to go out. Hope he's doing well though, and you as well. Thanks for the answer man.

 

[JumpmanATL7]

It’s hard to believe Tinker actually wanted to plaster a tacky giant jumpman on the heel tab of the 3. If that’s the case then thank god for the Nike execs.

 

[engineer]

It’s hard to believe Tinker actually wanted to plaster a tacky giant jumpman on the heel tab of the 3. If that’s the case then thank god for the Nike execs.

I would bet anything that his vision was not this jumpman air nonsense.