OFFICIAL COMIC BOOK THREAD

[Fresh Like Will]

I think the best way to develop new heroes and a fan base for them is to have them debut in an established characters series and let them grow from it into their own series. Let them gain popularity through an already popular character. It's attempting the impossible by just trying to create a new character and throwing them out there.

Hastily changing the persona of existing characters seems forced and disingenuous sometimes. I don't have a problem with new personas taking over someone's mantle, but it has to feel like a natural change or passing of the baton. Miles Morales Spider-Man and Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle are good examples. Even if Peter and Ted are back now.

Blindspot in Daredevil has been a pretty dope character. It's probably too early to give him his own series, but he would be one of my first candidates to have one. He's a new character that isn't borrowing someone else's persona and a minority. I'm hoping Duke Thomas and Ryan Choi can become crucial in their own right from DC's Rebirth eventually too.

 

[Master Zik]

Comparing an animated movie to F4 cartoons doesn't make any sense to me. Especially when the majority have been meh.

I mean c'mon Pixar film vs. Tv animated productions by FOX and Marvel in the late 70s or 80s. Then that Ultimate one.

When I said just a few cartoons, I was talking about the different versions. I thought that was obvious. I didn't say just a few episodes.

The more that I think about it, that you even bring up liking the Incredibles more than the F4 is irrelvant. It has nothing to do with the topic. This has been a complete tangent.

As I originally said, the Incredibles is a completely different medium. It has nothing to do with the comics. Citing that property isn't an example of making new characters in comics. That the Incredibles share some similarities with the F4 doesn't change that. Could've said you liked Chronicle the movie more than Akira the manga.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the time it would take to make new characters vs. legacy characters. What did I say in regards to time? It would take the same exact time to create both.

I specifically brought up the incentives and drawbacks on that topic and that most importantly it makes the most sense creative and business wise.

Now when it comes to how long you've been reading comics I'd think common sense would kick in after you gain more info about the industry, realizing why things are done and choices are made.

Regardless of what you may want you should at least understand why Marvel is making more legacy characters than they are new characters. To say at some point there characters were new is disingenuous of the clear differences in comics made in the 60s and comics made to day. Shows complete unawareness of went on in the 90s. Its not 1961 and the majority of creators are not Lee, Kirby, Dotkp, etc. Also ignores the consumer base where you may just have to accept you're not part of the majority in those desires. This has nothing to do with giving up but more with being smart.

And if you really focus on what they've been doing with all their comics Marvel hasn't stopped creating new characters. You're either unaware, don't care, don't like, or in some weird state of denial about the new characters created that eventually fade in to Bolivia or manage to stick around.

I mean **** there's a new inhuman in those books, Bendis just made a **** ton of new mutants. And if I really went comic to comic I know I would find even more.

End of the day, comics is a business. New characters are not on average the best for business.

We ALL know Tony will be back eventually. People just love to complain.

I don't even think Tony may be going anywhere going off that cover and what Bendis has said.

No matter what people are gonna complain.

Basically.

Its more typical with all these complaints after an announcement or teaser to something upcoming. They don't know what it's about but they know they don't like it.

 

[Fresh Like Will]

I'm not going to knock this new Iron Man, but I can see where people are coming from. I do feel like BMB (or someone) is getting a little too erratic and no one is telling him that not every idea is a good one. I don't think anyone would say these persona changes feel forced and excessive if we didn't see every single significant hero's race, gender, age, or everything changed. Wolvey, Cap, Thor, Hulk, Ghost Rider, Iron Man, etc.

We understand that a lot of characters have had their persona shared before, but ANAD seems to be changing everything at once just for the sake of doing it. Sometimes things can be done in excess. Do we even know why Thor isn't worthy yet? Is it because he was born a man? When Rhodey stepped in for Tony, it's not like at the same time Wolverine, Thor, Hulk, etc. were also replaced. It was a natural progression in the story that led to that outcome. I'm not knocking it (let 'em cook), but it isn't unreasonable to see why people are disillusioned.

Also, people do complain about the Robin's. The fans got one of them KILLED OFF. I've seen a lot of people complain about Damian before they made him cool and Duke Thomas (I know he's not "Robin", but close enough) is currently trying to find acceptance. I personally think DC has gotten a little ahead of themselves with the Bat family. (I mean, Bat Cow? Really though? ) And waaaay ahead of themselves with the Earth Green Lanterns. They gotta chill there.

 

[Master Zik]

That's pretty much another thing it comes down to. Do it one at a time over years where when you start a new one the old one is reverting back? Fine.

Just don't do it mostly all at once over 3 years.

Neither approach is wrong. This constant usage of the word "forced" makes me wonder if anybody reads the stories.

If they aren't good, I'd say stop reading it but if you're enjoying but stillncomaining that this is forced well that's something you're gonna have to deal with.

I feel like a lot of complainers would be better off reading in trades or an omnibus when an entire run is done. Month to month some ppl can't cope.

As for the Robins, there should be none. They should be complaining right after Todd. He does and no more Robins. Every child Bruce tries to bring in and train should backfire just like Todd but with no redemption. Just go full killer. If he wants a replacement look in to clones and androids. Upload his consciousness to a computer or something.

 

[ssjjfar]

I don't even think Tony may be going anywhere going off that cover and what Bendis has said.

I meant back as Iron Man. I think Riri will just be "Iron Man" while Tony is hiding/injured or something. And will then take on another name when he returns to the suit.

 

[ninjahood]

Female Thor
Female Wolverine
Female Iron Man

I think I'm starting to see a pattern 

forced like a motha **** er.

 

[Fresh Like Will]

As for the Robins, there should be none. They should be complaining right after Todd. He does and no more Robins. Every child Bruce tries to bring in and train should backfire just like Todd but with no redemption. Just go full killer. If he wants a replacement look in to clones and androids. Upload his consciousness to a computer or something.

Bat Vision

 

[KingdomFlatbush]

I love the "no matter what, people will complain" school of dismissing an argument

OKB got it tho. Invincible>>>>>>>

 

[jays25]

And if you really focus on what they've been doing with all their comics Marvel hasn't stopped creating new characters. You're either unaware, don't care, don't like, or in some weird state of denial about the new characters created that eventually fade in to Bolivia or manage to stick around.

I mean **** there's a new inhuman in those books, Bendis just made a **** ton of new mutants. And if I really went comic to comic I know I would find even more.

End of the day, comics is a business. New characters are not on average the best for business.

How is me pointing out I like The Incredibles over the F4 a tangent when it's something I pointed out in my own post in response to someone questioning whether new heroes could still be created with the same powers as older characters? You're acting like I was speaking to you and randomly threw it in against you. The post had nothing to do with you man From there, I branched out from talking about just comics to talking about other mediums by mentioning The Incredibles, since the film itself is a story and we were speaking about creating good stories. I pointed out Blue Marvel as a good story that was told in the comics and then The Incredibles as a good one that was told in the films, thereby showing that it can happen in multiple mediums and that in general just because one thing has been done before or even a few times doesn't mean that it can't still be successful and freshly potratryed to people.

Except they've been making new characters long after the 60s passed that aren't named Batman or Superman New characters were also created in the 90s, so i'm not really sure how this point of yours holds any weight:

Cable, Gambit, Deadpool, Jesse Quick, Bishop, Spawn, Hellboy, Static, Rhodey's first time as War Machine, etc. All appeared in the 90s and have done fairly well for themselves, though obviously they've never attained the acclaim of more classic characters. This holds true for every decade, so I really don't see what the issue is with people saying they want a comic company like Marvel and DC to create more new heroic characters. This seems like an overreaction out of nowhere to me

When did I say Marvel wasn't making any new characters at all? I specifically said they need to make more new heroes.

KingdomFlatbush Technically there are 2 Wolverines now, since, along with X-23, Old Man Logan stuck around after Secret Wars just like Miles did. He's with the X-Men now.

From what I understand about the new Iron Man, Tony is supposed to be mentoring her, which at least makes this better than other examples and more like Superboy and Supergirl for Superman or Nightwing and Robin for Batman.

Agreed on the need to create more new characters however instead of just throwing old ones into the roles of other old characters. Made the same argument back when they turned Wally West African American in the New 52. In the grand scheme that didn't solve anything and was just a lazy way of trying to make it appear that they were giving us more characters of color, without actually being creative about it and appealing to the existing fanbase that Wally West already had. Sam Wilson was arguably better off as Falcoln, because that was his own identity that he'd had for years, performed admirably in, and there was zero chance that Steve Rogers wasn't going to return as Captain America to upstage him eventually.

So at no point did I say something like "DC and Marvel should stop making legacy characters" or "DC and Marvel should only make new hero characters" or "Man, Marvel just doesn't create new characters anymore". So if we're talking tangents this entire part of your speech has been a tangent based on whatever need to express yourself that I don't know about Same with your earlier comment about not giving new characters a chance when no one said that either If you yourself now say that new characters are being made I understand even less about what you're arguing or complaining for, because all that was asked is that Marvel and DC do more of that.

 

[KingParappa]

Just think its unfair to get super pissed as they were with him. He was possessed.

Female Thor
Female Wolverine
Female Iron Man

I think I'm starting to see a pattern 

forced like a motha **** er.

There's been female versions of Iron Man and Wolverine for years tho.

 

[seandon23]

I don't mind Riri being the new iron man. She obviously isn't gonna stay iron man but I'm hoping she is an interesting character who can have her own identity once tony comes back. I agree with a lot of you guys with what's been said in the thread about the need for more diverse heroes. My only gripe is when a character's race is changed for no reason in the name of diversity and not doing anything with it like what the new 52 did with Wally west.

 

[Master Zik]

How is me pointing out I like The Incredibles over the F4 a tangent when it's something I pointed out in my own post in response to someone questioning whether new heroes could still be created with the same powers as older characters?

Cuz the Incredibles are not a comic.

Are we not talking about comics? Or just heroes in general?

If so I liked Hancock the movie more than the Deadpool comics and the Space Ghost cartoon.

You're acting like I was speaking to you and randomly threw it in against you. The post had nothing to do with you man From there, I branched out from talking about just comics to talking about other mediums by mentioning The Incredibles, since the film itself is a story and we were speaking about creating good stories.

I don't know why you're trying to make this about me or why you're assuming this has to do with me specifically.

I replied cuz it doesn't make sense. I'm sure you caught that the 65th time I said it. So I don't get how I'm acting like it was against me. As far as I see it, the topic of discussion has nothing to do with me specifically at all. Its not like anybody called me out. I chose to respond cuz you know it's a public forum and I can do that if I want.

I pointed out Blue Marvel as a good story that was told in the comics and then The Incredibles as a good one that was told in the films, thereby showing that it can happen in multiple mediums and that in general just because one thing has been done before or even a few times doesn't mean that it can't still be successful and freshly potratryed to people.

I get that but I thought we were talking about comics. I didn't know ppl thought good stories being told with new characters wasn't happening in other mediums.

Except they've been making new characters long after the 60s passed that aren't named Batman or Superman New characters were also created in the 90s, so i'm not really sure how this point of yours holds any weight:

Cable, Gambit, Deadpool, Jesse Quick, Bishop, Spawn, Hellboy, Static, Rhodey's first time as War Machine, etc. All appeared in the 90s and have done fairly well for themselves

This is where we disagree about fairly well.

If that's the standard you're going by, you have nothing to complain about now cuz like I said new characters heroes (I'll say new heroes from here on out cuz apparently using it interchangeably with new characters is being interpreted wrong) are being created.

New heroes never stopped being created. They're constantly being created. So there has to be some denial or ignorance of that fact going on with complainers.

This seems like an overreaction out of nowhere to me

I agree. I'm not sure what y'all are complaining about now. When did Marvel stop creating new heroes? Or is this complaining about the pace they make them? Cuz it's been laid out why they have an incentive to create legacy characters and why creators aren't incentivized to give away their best new creations.

I specifically said they need to make more new heroes.

Again they are doing that.

If that's your standard; from Jesse Quick to Static then Marvel never stopped creating new heroes.

From 2000 to 2016 there's been about a thousand new heroes created.

So I feel like these complaints literally are just complaining to complain. Its more about whining about new legacy characters than a lack of new "original" heroes.

I don't even think Tony may be going anywhere going off that cover and what Bendis has said.

I meant back as Iron Man. I think Riri will just be "Iron Man" while Tony is hiding/injured or something. And will then take on another name when he returns to the suit.

Yeah I got that.

I'm saying I aint sure Tony won't suit up going off what Bendis has said. Depends if the Hulk breaks him

 

[jays25]

How is me pointing out I like The Incredibles over the F4 a tangent when it's something I pointed out in my own post in response to someone questioning whether new heroes could still be created with the same powers as older characters?

Cuz the Incredibles are not a comic.

Are we not talking about comics? Or just heroes in general?

If so I liked Hancock the movie more than the Deadpool comics and the Space Ghost cartoon.

You're acting like I was speaking to you and randomly threw it in against you. The post had nothing to do with you man From there, I branched out from talking about just comics to talking about other mediums by mentioning The Incredibles, since the film itself is a story and we were speaking about creating good stories.

I don't know why you're trying to make this about me or why you're assuming this has to do with me specifically.

I replied cuz it doesn't make sense. I'm sure you caught that the 65th time I said it. So I don't get how I'm acting like it was against me. As far as I see it, the topic of discussion has nothing to do with me specifically at all. Its not like anybody called me out. I chose to respond cuz you know it's a public forum and I can do that if I want.

I pointed out Blue Marvel as a good story that was told in the comics and then The Incredibles as a good one that was told in the films, thereby showing that it can happen in multiple mediums and that in general just because one thing has been done before or even a few times doesn't mean that it can't still be successful and freshly potratryed to people.

I get that but I thought we were talking about comics. I didn't know ppl thought good stories being told with new characters wasn't happening in other mediums.

Except they've been making new characters long after the 60s passed that aren't named Batman or Superman New characters were also created in the 90s, so i'm not really sure how this point of yours holds any weight:

Cable, Gambit, Deadpool, Jesse Quick, Bishop, Spawn, Hellboy, Static, Rhodey's first time as War Machine, etc. All appeared in the 90s and have done fairly well for themselves

This is where we disagree about fairly well.

If that's the standard you're going by, you have nothing to complain about now cuz like I said new characters heroes (I'll say new heroes from here on out cuz apparently using it interchangeably with new characters is being interpreted wrong) are being created.

New heroes never stopped being created. They're constantly being created. So there has to be some denial or ignorance of that fact going on with complainers.

This seems like an overreaction out of nowhere to me

I agree. I'm not sure what y'all are complaining about now. When did Marvel stop creating new heroes? Or is this complaining about the pace they make them? Cuz it's been laid out why they have an incentive to create legacy characters and why creators aren't incentivized to give away their best new creations.

I specifically said they need to make more new heroes.

Again they are doing that.

If that's your standard; from Jesse Quick to Static then Marvel never stopped creating new heroes.

From 2000 to 2016 there's been about a thousand new heroes created.

So I feel like these complaints literary are just complaining to complain. Its more about whining about new legacy characters than a lack of new "original" heroes.

I don't even think Tony may be going anywhere going off that cover and what Bendis has said.

I meant back as Iron Man. I think Riri will just be "Iron Man" while Tony is hiding/injured or something. And will then take on another name when he returns to the suit.

Yeah I got that.

I'm saying I aint sure Tony won't suit up going off what Bendis has said. Depends if the Hulk breaks him

And like I already said I was mentioning The Incredibles as an example in another form of media. Again, don't see what the issue is and you easily could have just not commented on it at all.

You can do what you want on a public forum and so can I and I chose to mention The Incredibles as taking an old concept and creating something new. Glad we have an understanding. Just repeating myself at this point, one member asked about new heroes and mentioned that abilities and powers had been done to the point that coming up with new ones didn't seem possible. I simply pointed out that new ones weren't necessary, with Blue Marvel and The Incredibles being examples of not creating new powers at all, but still giving people something they can enjoy.

As I already pointed out, no one ever said new heroes weren't being created, yet you keep mentioning it for some reason. All I asked for was more new heroes. Similar to the above, not sure how there's an issue here. Seems to be you just don't want people to ask for more of something for some reason.

 

[Grine]

Guys can you recommend a great comic outside of the traditional DC and Marvel comics?

I want to branch out.  Something I can start from the beginning.

 

[jays25]

Guys can you recommend a great comic outside of the traditional DC and Marvel comics?


I want to branch out.  Something I can start from the beginning.

American Vampire, Y: The Last Man, Hellboy, and Invincible

 

[Master Zik]

And like I already said I was mentioning The Incredibles as an example in another form of media.

I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm saying it didn't make sense given the context of the discussion.

As I already pointed out, no one ever said new heroes weren't being created, yet you keep mentioning it for some reason.

Go back and read KingdomFlatbush 's post.

If that isn't clear enough then we have nothing more to discuss and should just move on from somebody saying new heroes aren't being created.

Whole post is what's the difficulty in creating new heroes as if thats not happening and that new heroes should be created instead of legacy characters while at the same time talking about the legacy characters he likes.

All I asked for was more new heroes.

This is happening. A LOT. So what's the complaining about?

Guys can you recommend a great comic outside of the traditional DC and Marvel comics?


I want to branch out.  Something I can start from the beginning.

Millarworld is where it's at. Good not too long stories with great art.

MPH
Jupiter's Legacy
Chrononauts

 

[Grine]

Thanks. I'll be picking up some of these.

 

[Master Zik]

If you buy one Millar book at the back or beginning will be the list of his other work if you're interested in more.

Over a dozen books by now.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Guys can you recommend a great comic outside of the traditional DC and Marvel comics?


I want to branch out.  Something I can start from the beginning.

'


LAZARUS by Greg Rucka and Michael Lark.

My favourite series right now.

 

[Fresh Like Will]

Guys can you recommend a great comic outside of the traditional DC and Marvel comics?


I want to branch out.  Something I can start from the beginning.

I've been reading The Fix. The 4th issue came out yesterday. It's a comedy/crime drama. It's foul as hell, but I'm loving it.

If your shop doesn't have the first four issues, they've been reprinting the previous issues every month so you could probably ask them to order them in with the 5th one for next month.

 

[KingParappa]

Thief of Thieves, Saga, Sex Criminals

 

[ssjjfar]

Guys can you recommend a great comic outside of the traditional DC and Marvel comics?


I want to branch out.  Something I can start from the beginning.

From what I'm reading or plan to read.

Highly recommended:
Saga, Invincible

Hit or miss for some:
Wicked and the Divine, The Walking Dead

Newer ongoing:
Paper Girls(7 issues in), 4 Kids Walk into a Bank(2 issues in), Joyride(3 issues in)

 

[Platinum State]

'


LAZARUS by Greg Rucka and Michael Lark.

My favourite series right now.

Yessssss Lazarus. Also Tokyo Ghost and Deadly Class by Rick Remender. Also East of West by Jonathan Hickman. And Clean Room by Gail Simone.

 

[KingdomFlatbush]

I know we're kind of off the topic now but nobody complains about the Robin legacy because Grayson, Todd, and Drake are all fantastic characters who take the place of the previous Robin when they are NO LONGER ROBIN and don't ever exist as Robin at the SAME DAMN TIME as their predecessors or successors

Can't say the same about Flash but hey

And also, the readers voted Jason to live. Some nerd actually hacked the phone lines to make it look like the overwhelming majority wanted him dead.

 

[ninjahood]

Just think its unfair to get super pissed as they were with him. He was possessed.

Female Thor
Female Wolverine
Female Iron Man

I think I'm starting to see a pattern 

forced like a motha **** er.

There's been female versions of Iron Man and Wolverine for years tho.

female variant in addition to da OG >>>>> completely replacing da OG for da sake of "diversification"