***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[Wargames]

this question just fundamentally betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the argument.

it's not about doing the job of president, it's about RUNNING for president.
you need to RUN for president to BE the president.


And the decision by the Biden campaign, to basically do zero interviews or unscripted public appearances for like a week. after a disastrous debate where he could barely complete a sentence and debates in the media ranged about his competence.

I think shows that his campaign believes that he does not have the cognitive function to run a normal campaign.

In a race between two former presidents…. You don’t think their records as presidents are as important (if not more important) as Biden did after a week after a bad debate?

You don’t see how caught in the moment you are, but you are,

 

[Wargames]

this is the difference between you and me.

I don't care who is on my "side", i don't care what it "looks like" or what people will think of my "character"

I only care if the argument is logically sound and is fact based and true. for better or worse, that's just how I am.

i hate bad arguments way more than I hate bad allies.

And that makes you bad at politics….

 

[osh kosh bosh]

In a race between two former presidents…. You don’t think their records as presidents are as important (if not more important) as Biden did after a week after a bad debate?

You don’t see how caught in the moment you are, but you are,

all that matters is what the voters think.

and voters thought he was too old BEFORE the debate. he was losing BEFORE the debate.



I think Biden has been a great president, if I was voting, id vote for Biden. No one in this thread has been more supportive of Biden. I am even generally supportive of his foreign policy.

no one can accuse me of insufficient Biden support.


but that just doesn't matter any more. the only question is can he win.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

And that makes you bad at politics….

 

[trappedintime]

Show me a decision Biden made as president that points to a loss of cognitive functions? Just one and I will concede the point.

You have no evidence he is senile.

Very little evidence even among his own staffers he makes any decision on his own. Anthony Blinken and Jake Sullivan have been running the show. He was on tv last night claiming he made a Middle East peace agreement when all he’s done is inflamed a horrible situation? One obvious policy failure that shows he’s not grasping it. Killing him with young voters whose protests he got behind putting down.

Claiming he got inflation down when it has spiraled out of control. Thinking his student debt program is successful or addresses the root problem. Claiming he’s going to get M4A in his next term when he never was even a M4A candidate and done nothing to achieve that in 4 years. Claiming getting insulin prices down is evidence he “beat” the pharma industry.

The list goes on and on. He did a great job with the infrastructure bill and did some good things through summer of 2022. But Sept 22 is when it became clear he was having cognitive problems.

You’re talking about stutters but the man called out into a crowd for a dead woman he had publicly given respects to days earlier. He was looking for a dead woman and you think that’s not a serious mental lapse?

 

[Betonblck]

Biden has always been good for one or two gaffes in every public speaking appearance even when he was younger.

Either you haven't been following politics or you have an agenda.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Even if Biden does step down Dems (and Biden) have to do it in away that preserves all the advantages that traditionally come with incumbency. If they mess up replacing Biden not only with who they choose and the optics of how it happens you might end up worse off than just leaving Biden in the race as it stands.

Thats a lot of things that have to go right so Biden can be replaced and that new Dem candidate still wins. It might sound preposterous right now based on the news cycle but there are still some scenarios where keeping Biden is strategic play. These next couple of weeks will be the deciding factor.

 

[trappedintime]

Even if Biden does step down Dems (and Biden) have to do it in away that preserves all the advantages that traditionally come with incumbency. If they mess up replacing Biden not only with who they choose and the optics of how it happens you might end up worse off than just leaving Biden in the race as it stands.

The biggest problem is that interview last night. There’s a large gulf between needing god himself to tell you to drop out and gracefully handing off the baton.

The apparatus is there. Harris could take his campaign over and have the money and PACs to win. But Democrats will make this into a messy Chicago convention because no one can talk the man down.

 

[Wargames]

Very little evidence even among his own staffers he makes any decision on his own. Anthony Blinken and Jake Sullivan have been running the show. He was on tv last night claiming he made a Middle East peace agreement when all he’s done is inflamed a horrible situation? One obvious policy failure that shows he’s not grasping it. Killing him with young voters whose protests he got behind putting down.

Claiming he got inflation down when it has spiraled out of control. Thinking his student debt program is successful or addresses the root problem. Claiming he’s going to get M4A in his next term when he never was even a M4A candidate and done nothing to achieve that in 4 years. Claiming getting insulin prices down is evidence he “beat” the pharma industry.

The list goes on and on. He did a great job with the infrastructure bill and did some good things through summer of 2022. But Sept 22 is when it became clear he was having cognitive problems.

You’re talking about stutters but the man called out into a crowd for a dead woman he had publicly given respects to days earlier. He was looking for a dead woman and you think that’s not a serious mental lapse?

So you took all your own grievances with Biden and him over hyping his accomplishments like a normal politician as cognitive decline?

Your best evidence is him calling on the dead woman in grief. However, that is really scraping the barrel. That is the type of stuff I know they must be hyping on conservative sights as hard evidence.

 

[trappedintime]

Biden has always been good for one or two gaffes in every public speaking appearance even when he was younger.

Either you haven't been following politics or you have an agenda.

There’s a big difference between his gaffes a decade ago and when he ran in 2020. And the kind of gaffes we’re talking about over the past two years are emblematic of a much larger cognitive problem. But if you’ve been following politics you also know Joe Biden has had a serious brain injury that no other president has incurred. Brain aneurysms do permanent damage.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

The biggest problem is that interview last night. There’s a large gulf between needing god himself to tell you to drop out and gracefully handing off the baton.

The apparatus is there. Harris could take his campaign over and have the money and PACs to win. But Democrats will make this into a messy Chicago convention because no one can talk the man down.

Like I mentioned, it’s not just about Biden stepping down. It’s about what replacing him looks like. On paper Kamala makes sense but who will be the VP pick? Will she be able to court moderates the way Biden has? How does the switch up look like to the swing voters? A lot of stuff that polling this far out just isn’t going to answer or predict. So Dems have to be Strategic and Tactful about how they approach this.

 

[trappedintime]

Like I mentioned, it’s not just about Biden stepping down. It’s about what replacing him looks like. On paper Kamala makes sense but who will be the VP pick? Will she be able to court moderates the way Biden has? How does the switch up look like to the swing voters? A lot of stuff that polling this far out just isn’t going to answer or predict. So Dems have to be Strategic and Tactful about how they approach this.

Her team has been planning for this. They just need to get in there to do it. She already has her eyes on VP candidates who could influence the swing state vote.

“Harris donors and backers of her nomination were reported to already be discussing potential vice-president picks.

The conversations were “based on the usual notion that the country’s prospective first black woman president would likely lean toward a white guy governor”, New York Magazine reported.

Besides Mr Cooper and Mr Beshear, Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania was also suggested.

Kamala Harris team considers ‘white man’ VP for presidential run

Aides to the US Vice-President have suggested she would pick a white man as her running mate if Biden steps down

www.telegraph.co.uk

I don’t even like her but I think there’s a chance if she’s elected that she would go all in on a progressive agenda. It wasn’t an accident that she went public with her call for a ceasefire, even though it was watered down by Biden’s handlers.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Her team has been planning for this. They just need to get in there to do it. She already has her eyes on VP candidates who could influence the swing state vote.

“Harris donors and backers of her nomination were reported to already be discussing potential vice-president picks.

The conversations were “based on the usual notion that the country’s prospective first black woman president would likely lean toward a white guy governor”, New York Magazine reported.

Besides Mr Cooper and Mr Beshear, Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania was also suggested.

Kamala Harris team considers ‘white man’ VP for presidential run

Aides to the US Vice-President have suggested she would pick a white man as her running mate if Biden steps down

www.telegraph.co.uk

I don’t even like her but I think there’s a chance if she’s elected that she would go all in on a progressive agenda. It wasn’t an accident that she went public with her call for a ceasefire, even though it was watered down by Biden’s handlers.

I don’t doubt for a second that she’s ready to step up and step in. I’m more so looking at voter behavior. What “spooks” voters into voting one way or the other, what will lead to voter enthusiasm vs voter apathy. What happens to the perceived advantage and stability that comes with incumbency if Harris’s platform is more differs from Biden. There’s a lot of factors to considering the Democratic voting base is so diverse and have different motivations.

 

[atlsfinest]

To beIn a race between two former presidents…. You don’t think their records as presidents are as important (if not more important) as Biden did after a week after a bad debate?

You don’t see how caught in the moment you are, but you are,

Wargames I think you're missing a crucial point here. I respect your opinions but those of us in this thread are not the people you need to court. I would imagine every single person in this thread is voting for Joe Biden. There's a difference between what people should find important and what they do find important.

The US electorate is stupid, superficial, easily influenced and fickle. I live in Georgia where Herschel Walker absolutely dominated the Republican primary against two friends of mine and fellow veterans, Latham Saddler (former Navy SEAL and White House fellow) and Kelvin King (Air Force academy grad and small business owner). Shouldn't voters care about who is objectively smarter and more equipped to do the job?

Optics are important. How things look are important, in some cases there are even more important than actual qualifications and record. We all agree with you that presidential records should be important and that we hold democratic candidates to a much higher standard than Republican candidates. Regardless of if people are acting foolishly, those that people that vote and those are the people who Joe Biden needs to court in order to win and if those people do not believe that Joe has the cognitive ability then that is what it is. Perception becomes reality at that point.

 

[jpzx]

My boys

I have the answer. Ralph Nader is still alive and well!

 

[cedric ceballos]

What blows my mind is some of the self sabotage on the Dems end. Like all those public calls for Biden to step down from Dems. That **** should be discussed internally. It’s one thing for the opposition to say it publicly. But for those within your own party to openly say it publicly 4 months before the election. Regardless if he should or shouldn’t step down, that’s a behind closed doors conversation.

If Trump had the debate performance Biden had. And to be fair his performance wasn’t anything to brag about either. But if he did. Do you really think high profile conservatives would openly advocate for him to step down? And Trump has had plenty of situations where he’s forgotten stuff to where his age should easily be an issue. But he’s not held to the same standards. It is what it is.

At the end of the day narratives and optics matter and the Dems have just under 4 months to do everything possible to tilt those things in their favor. The average voter is pretty reactionary and uninformed. But educated votes don’t count anymore than uneducated votes. There’s plenty to attack Trump on and there’s plenty of stuff you can simplify and dumb down to where the message gets across while painting Trump as an absolute monster to the undecided crowd. Biden or no Biden. They need to be aggressively attacking Trump and the idea of how incompetent another Trump term would be while doing whatever they can to lift up whoever their candidate is going to be moving forward. Would love if the Dems had the craftiness to have some wicked October surprises up their sleeve though.

 

[trappedintime]

I don’t doubt for a second that she’s ready to step up and step in. I’m more so looking at voter behavior. What “spooks” voters into voting one way or the other, what will lead to voter enthusiasm vs voter apathy. What happens to the perceived advantage and stability that comes with incumbency if Harris’s platform is more differs from Biden. There’s a lot of factors to considering the Democratic voting base is so diverse and have different motivations.

I think voters know there’s some difference if they can go back 5 years. Bottom line is she polls better than Biden in every swing state and putting her in a fight for a contested convention isn’t going to happen. Passing over the black, female VP for a white governor isn’t gonna work. And Biden clearly isn’t going to work. Plus we know Trump advisors don’t want to face her.

The options are limited but the reality is there needs to be fast movement in the next week or so. Can’t wait until the end of August to hash this all out which is what Mark Werner and most higher ups in the party are keenly attuned to at the moment. The problem is Biden won’t listen to anyone. Even apparently was angered by Barack’s call to him last week.

 

[jpzx]

What blows my mind is some of the self sabotage on the Dems end. Like all those public calls for Biden to step down from Dems. That **** should be discussed internally. It’s one thing for the opposition to say it publicly. But for those within your own party to openly say it publicly 4 months before the election. Regardless if he should or shouldn’t step down, that’s a behind closed doors conversation.

This can’t happen in 2024

 

[cedric ceballos]

This can’t happen in 2024

The thing is with the Dems they always tend to get in their own way with this type of stuff. The GOP is way less likely to break party lines. Especially publicly. They’re way less likely to reveal their hand in that respect.

They’ll battle it out in the primaries. But for as much foul stuff as Trump said about Ted Cruz in 2016 and now Nikki Haley this year. They ultimately fell in line when push to came to shove.

For as bad as the GOP is. I just don’t see them adding fuel to the fire publicly in a hypothetical situation where Trump absolutely bombed a debate. They’ve self sabotaged themselves in other ways in the past. The hardline stance against abortion in 2022 hurting them in midterms they were expected to take the senate in comes to mind. But I just don’t see them calling for their guy to step down publicly that close to an election in a similar situation.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

I think voters know there’s some difference if they can go back 5 years. Bottom line is she polls better than Biden in every swing state and putting her in a fight for a contested convention isn’t going to happen. Passing over the black, female VP for a white governor isn’t gonna work. And Biden clearly isn’t going to work. Plus we know Trump advisors don’t want to face her.

I think you have more faith in the voting base to make common sense decisions than I do lol I watched America collectively elect Trump over Hillary, who at this point and pretty much the whole election cycle was also leading in the polls.
Ultimately what ever moves the Dems make has to be strategic and well planned, because the who what where when and how are all important.

 

[jpzx]

For as bad as the GOP is. I just don’t see them adding fuel to the fire publicly in a hypothetical situation where Trump absolutely bombed a debate. They’ve self sabotaged themselves in other ways in the past. The hardline stance against abortion in 2022 hurting them in midterms they were expected to take the senate in comes to mind. But I just don’t see them calling for their guy to step down publicly that close to an election in a similar situation.

I agree with most of what I haven’t quoted, but the way I see it, Trump is a syndrome not an indicator. R’s would have the same reaction.

If Trump went up there and looked like Biden did, there’d he panic.

I don’t like it whatsoever but on July 6th, I see Trump winning by like two points. Arizona, Carolinas, are gonna be critical.

 

[trappedintime]

I think you have more faith in the voting base to make common sense decisions than I do lol I watched America collectively elect Trump over Hillary, who at this point and pretty much the whole election cycle was also leading in the polls.
Ultimately what ever moves the Dems make has to be strategic and well planned, because the who what where when and how are all important.

I mean this is what people are saying as of last week. Knock off 1-2 swing states with a dem gov VP and you have a good shot with Harris. You have a good shot with any of them. Is 28% chance of winning the odds you want to roll with the next 125 days? I sure don’t. Running a for sure loser is worthless.

 

[biggie62]

I agree with most of what I haven’t quoted, but the way I see it, Trump is a syndrome not an indicator. R’s would have the same reaction.

If Trump went up there and looked like Biden did, there’d he panic.

I don’t like it whatsoever but on July 6th, I see Trump winning by like two points. Arizona, Carolinas, are gonna be critical.

Carolinas are going red anyway so that’s a lost cause plus north is gerrymandered to hell. Arizona Nevada Georgia Michigan Minnesota Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are the important states.

 

[cedric ceballos]

I agree with most of what I haven’t quoted, but the way I see it, Trump is a syndrome not an indicator. R’s would have the same reaction.

If Trump went up there and looked like Biden did, there’d he panic.

I don’t like it whatsoever but on July 6th, I see Trump winning by like two points. Arizona, Carolinas, are gonna be critical.

I agree. I think there would be panic. I just think they would be more likely to address it behind closed doors.

But the Dems got just under 4 months to build up whoever their candidate is while also painting Trump to be absolutely incompetent. There’s plenty of ammo from his first term and his last few decades as a private citizen to effectively paint him like an absolute piece of garbage. But the Dems building up their eventual candidate is just important imo because you’ll hear people talking about how the Dems need to win them over with more than our candidate isn’t Trump.

 

[trappedintime]

Carolinas are going red anyway so that’s a lost cause plus north is gerrymandered to hell. Arizona Nevada Georgia Michigan Minnesota Wisconsin and Pennsylvania are the important states.

The problem now is that Biden’s doing so poorly NH and NM are battleground/states he trails. That means more money and more attention to ground efforts and infrastructure. And his campaign has been busy pushing that FL is in contention. It’s a complete mess when you factor in their largest donors aren’t giving him more money.

Hell, he had to use a teleprompter at a private donor event last week and have his wife whisper names in his ear cause he doesn’t know or remember the names of people giving him hundreds of thousands of dollars. It’s dire.