***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[osh kosh bosh]

Did the cut off the part where he talked about mass raids and deportation? Kids in cages? Because that’s what the left has mostly objected to.

well this isn't true.

immigration activist groups advocate for more than that. for example;

Or did I miss the part where the official Democratic platform started advocating for mass amnesty?

how about on the DNC stage all of the democrats raised their hands when they asked if they would decriminalize boarder crossings?

I guess, what evidence do you have that the Democratic party -and not some blue haired TikToker or brocaster- departed from this approach to a pathway to citizenship for long-time residents - which is what this clip is about?

I don't understand this question. My point is the democratic party from 2016-2022 strayed from their moderate popular message on immigration, which emphasized ENFORCEMENT and ORDER along with a path to citizenship.

None of that has been the focus of the immigration debate over the last decade. The crisis was created by Congress not funding the mandate of our refugee laws. The only solutions for this are to ignore the laws, like Trump did, or to adequately fund the mechanisms for processing refugees, like Biden did until Trump broke the deal.

this isn't isn't true, after Bidens immigration bill fell apart he signed an executive order allowing officials to shut down the boarder if illegal crossings get to high. Biden had a solution available to him he was just too scared to do anything because they never want to make any part of the Dem coalition mad.

you do this thing where when its going good progressive ideas are morally ascendant, inescapable, the arc of the moral universe bending towards bluesky

but when it goes bad suddenly progressives have zero agency, zero power, and zero influence.

 

[jpzx]

 

[putting in work]

Yeah I knew they were going to put a stipulation in there to keep Obama out.

Honestly the right wing media has such a stronghold on American minds I don't even think Obama could beat Trump.

 

[biggie62]

Like biggie62 I went to a Catholic Jesuit high school, and that’s probably the only time I didn’t hate being in a Christian environment as an atheist.

We had a monthly mass and had to take one semester of religion class in our first year, but other than that, there was zero judgement or conversion attempts on non religious people.

99% of anything related to religion was them trying to mold the students into good people regardless of belief (which doesn’t work on a student population of rich snobby white kids, but that’s besides the point).

Our monthly mass was basically “Be responsible, respect people of all backgrounds, help poor people” etc. which are universal concepts. All the optional student retreats involved going to countries all over the world to help the locals, regardless of what the dominant religion in those countries was.

Even in our religion class, we were basically told “you don’t have to take these stories literally. No one knows for sure what happened thousands of years ago, but you can learn the lessons of the stories and still learn about evolution and science. Just be a good person”

It was a stark contrast to what I’ve dealt with in real life when dealing with Christians in general

“Men and women for others.” Is the Jesuit model. Meaning just be a good ******* person. If you’re a good person a IF there is a heaven you’ll end up there no matter your religion. That’s the messaging of Jesuits.

This is why they are disliked by so many. They don’t force the religion down your throat.

Edit: and yes I’m somewhere between agnostic and atheist myself. I turned that way around 7-8th grade even though I was raised in a Catholic household.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

well this isn't true.

immigration activist groups advocate for more than that. for example;

Had you heard of "Cosecha" before you happened upon this rage bait? I hadn't until today. At any rate, all I need to know about the reach and influence of Cosecha is on their own webpage...

Cosecha has no paid staff, but does have a network of volunteer organizers who support the movement full-time.

how about on the DNC stage all of the democrats raised their hands when they asked if they would decriminalize boarder crossings?

Are you just pretending to not understand the difference between amnesty and the purpose and effects of decriminalization in this context? If not, we can talk about it, but I suspect this is just normal goalpost moving.

At any rate, the entire existence of ICE and before them BPC is predicated on the idea that the American criminal justice system is not appropriate for dealing with undocumented immigration. This is about not letting reactionary governors forget that.

I don't understand this question. My point is the democratic party from 2016-2022 strayed from their moderate popular message on immigration, which emphasized ENFORCEMENT and ORDER along with a path to citizenship.

Did it? Let's see what the actually wrote in their official message. You have to scroll down a bit because, as usual, immigration wasn't really a top line priority for the party. Or you can just search for:

CREATING A 21ST CENTURY IMMIGRATION SYSTEM

this isn't isn't true, after Bidens immigration bill fell apart he signed an executive order allowing officials to shut down the boarder if illegal crossings get to high.

Yes, he did start to ignore our law on receiving refugees just like his predecessor. Every American president ever has ultimately served their nativist constituency.

Biden had a solution available to him he was just too scared to do anything because they never want to make any part of the Dem coalition mad.

Please provide evidence that Biden's concerns were political.

you do this thing where when its going good progressive ideas are morally ascendant, inescapable, the arc of the moral universe bending towards bluesky

but when it goes bad suddenly progressives have zero agency, zero power, and zero influence.

Do I? Or maybe you mean a more broad "You"?

Anyways, morality is my second concern here...

My first concern is undocumented workers represent close to 5% of the US workforce and current unemployment is about 4%. And that math just don't math. If you though the COVID supply side shock led to brutal inflation, you ain't seen nothing yet. The kind of immigration policy that the right envisions would lead to some pain felt by me and my family directly every time we purchased anything.

Honestly, if I could blink my eyes and put every undocumented immigrant in a safe, non-US location I would do it immediately. Because I have become convinced that the average American, including the so-called American moderate liberal, has no idea just how much their lives are subsidized by the people they demonize and I have no faith that our system will ever be fixed until they do. It is, as you have frequently pointed out, a losing political issue. On that, you and I agree.

Unfortunately, the only way we will get there is through gradual pain and misery inflicted on the very people who provide us with inexpensive agriculture, construction, and all the other incredibly difficult jobs that we will simply not do for as little money. Personally, I would try to find a way to thank them instead, but so be it.

I actually hope that Trump is extremely successful. We will be on the right, if not horrific, track, if he can replicate Operation *******.

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

Man, all of this is going to get so much worse in the coming decades as the number of global political refugees gets dwarfed by the number of climate refugees.

I suspect that we will see unprecedented levels of human cruelty. Good thing we just got rid of oversight of the military on civilian casualties!

 

[gry60]

I suspect that we will see unprecedented levels of human cruelty.

May I point you to the countries north of the Mediterranean sea, where talking about climate refugees as parasites as been a thing for at least 2-3 decades?

Should watch Euronews from time to time.

 

[dacomeup]

It can't not be influenced. as a result Canada tends to just copy whatever America does but on like 2 year delay.

See: Aubrey Graham

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

May I point you to the countries north of the Mediterranean sea, where talking about climate refugees as parasites as been a thing for at least 2-3 decades?

Should watch Euronews from time to time.

I'm somewhat aware of how this is playing out in Europe; although you are probably correct that I should educate myself more. Alas, 168 hours and all that.

Still, I think things are going to get much, much worse there to the point that we will long for the days of name calling. This is Europe, after all. They are the world champion of human cruelty, even if it currently seems like they have some title challengers.

 

[wavycrocket]

Obama the goat.
The progressive campaign to smear him and minimize his presidency was bad.

Was it a progressive campaign? The biggest critics were dudes like Greenwald etc. (fake progressives). And dudes like Cornel West & Tavis Smiley + those ppl that accurately pointed out some of his flaws…and got way to beholden to that. And the old “hotep” types.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Had you heard of "Cosecha" before you happened upon this rage bait? I hadn't until today. At any rate, all I need to know about the reach and influence of Cosecha is on their own webpage...

talk about goal post moving. just concede the point.



plenty of post mortems of the Biden administration have been done that have talked about the fear of upsetting "the groups"

but again you do this two step.

[insert progressive groups] policies are normal and good!

to

actually the groups are harmless fringe activists who have no influence or power over anything or anyone.

constantly shifting back and forth to absolve them of any blame.

Are you just pretending to not understand the difference between amnesty and the purpose and effects of decriminalization in this context? If not, we can talk about it, but I suspect this is just normal goalpost moving.

At any rate, the entire existence of ICE and before them BPC is predicated on the idea that the American criminal justice system is not appropriate for dealing with undocumented immigration. This is about not letting reactionary governors forget that.

it is an example of immigration activist maximalism influencing the messaging of mainstream democrats away from the Obama era messaging. which was the entire point of my argument.

i don't have to buy into your strawman framing.

you want to act like they have no power or influence , but that is obviously untrue.,

Did it? Let's see what the actually wrote in their official message. You have to scroll down a bit because, as usual, immigration wasn't really a top line priority for the party. Or you can just search for:

yah man lets ignore candidate position taking, actions by the president, media produced by activist orgs.

lets ignore all that. we all know the real message that reaches voters is the pdf file on the DNC website. cmon man be serious.

My first concern is undocumented workers represent close to 5% of the US workforce and current unemployment is about 4%. And that math just don't math. If you though the COVID supply side shock led to brutal inflation, you ain't seen nothing yet. The kind of immigration policy that the right envisions would lead to some pain felt by me and my family directly every time we purchased anything.

Honestly, if I could blink my eyes and put every undocumented immigrant in a safe, non-US location I would do it immediately. Because I have become convinced that the average American, including the so-called American moderate liberal, has no idea just how much their lives are subsidized by the people they demonize and I have no faith that our system will ever be fixed until they do. It is, as you have frequently pointed out, a losing political issue. On that, you and I agree.

Unfortunately, the only way we will get there is through gradual pain and misery inflicted on the very people who provide us with inexpensive agriculture, construction, and all the other incredibly difficult jobs that we will simply not do for as little money. Personally, I would try to find a way to thank them instead, but so be it.

I actually hope that Trump is extremely successful. We will be on the right, if not horrific, track, if he can replicate Operation *******.

im talking about winning elections and political messaging. personally im an immigration maximalist. but you can't ignore public opinion.

canada is cutting immigration, i think this is bad on the merits, but its the right move politically. thats politics.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

See: Aubrey Graham

him and the weeknd is one of the few cases it worked in the opposite direction.

thats why every song sounded like...drake featuring...well you know.

 

[dacomeup]

Is the Dem plan just to let them hang themselves? Otherwise, not sure why I’m basically only seeing AOC talk thus far about this

 

[dacomeup]

him and the weeknd is one of the few cases it worked in the opposite direction.

thats why every song sounded like...drake featuring...well you know.

The fact that you believe this

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Was it a progressive campaign? The biggest critics were dudes like Greenwald etc. (fake progressives). And dudes like Cornel West & Tavis Smiley + those ppl that accurately pointed out some of his flaws…and got way to beholden to that. And the old “hotep” types.

nah there an entire bernie wing of the part committed to "well actually obama is bad"

the idea that actually Obama "destroyed the party" is nearly conventional wisdom among the bernie left

bernie senoir advisor.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The fact that you believe this

its just facts.

but hey maybe you're right and the biggest rnb singer and the biggest rapper didn't have any influence on American culture.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Music talk in there again, not today devil.

Take it to the music forum.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

#analysis

 

[gry60]

He said he'd fire 75% of the federal workforce.

#promiseskept

 

[dacomeup]

But hey maybe you're right and the biggest rnb singer and the biggest rapper didn't have any influence on American culture.

#OshIsms101 pin someone to a point that they literally never said

 

[Based Jesus]

May I point you to the countries north of the Mediterranean sea, where talking about climate refugees as parasites as been a thing for at least 2-3 decades?

Otherwise known as moderate sensible effective messaging. This is why the dems keep losing, constantly capitulating to stupid progressive ideals like basic respect for humans regardless of origin and status When will we finally learn to demonize innocent people escaping strife we inflicted on them?

 

[IATT]

Honestly the right wing media has such a stronghold on American minds I don't even think Obama could beat Trump.

Ain’t a coincidence trump has only beat women.. and his only legit win was a black woman

I can’t see a gay man winning.. not sure how a new black male candidate would do

But a decent straight male white candidate or Obama, can’t see trump winning.. trump needs ugly America to show up heavily and even the racist in Alabama have realized they need black men at the very least for football

 

[yobyellav]

That movie, Civil War, went like this. Country was already gone to ****, while the president was in his 3rd term. Told y’all a wild back we were living the prequel.

 

[pmatic]

Lmao.

 

[Frankie Blue]

its just facts.

but hey maybe you're right and the biggest rnb singer and the biggest rapper didn't have any influence on American culture.