:::[Official]World Cup South Africa 2010 Thread:::

Originally Posted by damnTHOSEjs

To me, what Suarez did was heroic and commendable. He sacrificed himself and an opportunity to shine on the semifinal stage at a crucial point in his career so that his team might have an ever-so-slight chance to advance. If Gyan would have stepped up and made the penalty like a competent striker should have, Uruguay would have been punished justly for what they did right then and there.
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Heroic but at the same time stupid. Only him and Forlan run that team. This dude had Forlan work like a horse today (nice goal btw) and you clearly saw his frustrations today because he had nobody to pass to.


But they would've been eliminated had he let the ball go in. So not only would Forlan have had no one to pass to, he wouldn't have even had a chance to take the field. Don't see how you call what Suarez did stupid.
 
Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by PersiaFly

In that scenario, the team taking a free kick will take a penalty (against one goalkeeper), to score that same goal. It's not really any different than a defender tackling an attacker from behind when he knows he's beat, or a cornerback tackling a receiver who's in position to catch a game winning touchdown. The game has built in penalties, so something can really only be cheating if the player doesn't get caught.
And I don't really agree that this sets some bad precedent, because the scenario is way too rare. A game has to be tied, in the dying moments, and a ball has to be clearly going in with a player in perfect position to slap it away instead of the goalkeeper. If there is even 5 minutes left in the game, most players would let the goal in and try to get it back rather than get ejected and give up a penalty. 

To me, what Suarez did was heroic and commendable. He sacrificed himself and an opportunity to shine on the semifinal stage at a crucial point in his career so that his team might have an ever-so-slight chance to advance. If Gyan would have stepped up and made the penalty like a competent striker should have, Uruguay would have been punished justly for what they did right then and there. 
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A corner kick in the dying seconds of a game is not "rare" at all. And in that situation, the team playing defense could completely barricade themselves and have 3 or even more goalkeepers if what Suarez did doesn't become flat out illegal. Of course they will get a penalty, but who wouldn't want to take a chance on a penalty where the success rate is, what, 70-80% over what would've been a 100% goal. In that situation, where you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, everyone would rather keep a slim hope of the goalkeeper either saving the penalty or as was the case with Gyan, the player missing the penalty.

And you're wrong, what Suarez did was in fact VERY different from stopping a charging attacker from behind by any means necessary when he would only have a goalkeeper to beat. What Suarez prevented with cheating was a 100% GOAL, everyone could see in the replays that the ball was going into the goal. Whether that ball would've ended as a goal is not a subject for debate. Being all alone and having only the goalkeeper to beat is (much like a penalty) a huge chance at scoring a goal, but it's still NOT a GOAL. Even the best players in the world are not certain to score in this situation (see Robben completely wasting a chance yesterday). Being cheated out of a certain goal and being cheated out of a very big chance are two vastly different things.

I sure would've liked to see the reaction if the Algeria defender who was lying on the ground when Landon Donovan scored the goal threw himself and prevented the ball with his hands from going into the goal. Would USA have scored on the penalty? Probably, but not certainly. But I can't help and wonder how much of a "hero" the Algeria defender would've been then had the U.S. missed that penalty.
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You're overblowing the likelihood of this happening again, I think. Players wouldn't barricade the goal because their first priority would be to stop a shot on goal in the first place. This is a tie game, remember. Only if a team got off a shot on goal in the dying seconds of a tie game, and a player found himself as the only person who could stop the shot, would this dilemma come into play. I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen at the World Cup for another 20 years. Given the rarity of this occurence, I think instituting the rule you suggest would lead to more drama than good, although I do understand your sentiments.

And it wouldn't always be a 100% goal, that might be oversimplifying things. What if a shot was headed towards the post, and a defender stuck out his arm and pushed it wide? Maybe it would've went in, maybe it would've hit the post. And I'm sure you wouldn't want to put that decision in referees' hands, to decided whether a ball was "certainly" going in or not. In basketball the rule is simplified, it's just whether the ball is on its way down, regardless of where it was going. Can't do that in soccer. That's why a penalty is an appropriate punishment here. A very high probability of scoring from the penalty spot, because you had a very high probability of scoring before a defender handled the ball. Giving teams goals automatically in any situation would create more problems than good, I think. 

To me what Suarez did was akin to people who refuse to pay taxes based on moral grounds. They don't hide the fact, and they don't apologize for it. They deal with the penalties when the time comes. Don't know if such people still exist, but Thoreau is an example. This is much different than people who don't pay taxes for financial/greed reasons, and hope they don't get audited. That's more like what Maradona or Henry did. Huge difference there.
 
Originally Posted by PersiaFly

Originally Posted by damnTHOSEjs

To me, what Suarez did was heroic and commendable. He sacrificed himself and an opportunity to shine on the semifinal stage at a crucial point in his career so that his team might have an ever-so-slight chance to advance. If Gyan would have stepped up and made the penalty like a competent striker should have, Uruguay would have been punished justly for what they did right then and there.
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Heroic but at the same time stupid. Only him and Forlan run that team. This dude had Forlan work like a horse today (nice goal btw) and you clearly saw his frustrations today because he had nobody to pass to.
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But they would've been eliminated had he let the ball go in. So not only would Forlan have had no one to pass to, he wouldn't have even had a chance to take the field. Don't see how you call what Suarez did stupid.


to be fair, he had the ball come at him at and not at Fucile (who was also ready to take that sacrifice with his hands held up high too)

seriously, I wouldn't know what other players would have done but that was done impulsively by instinct and he could've used his head or chest to block it off.  The ball was going directly at him and didn't want to take a hit to the face.

anyhow, he's had a good run in the WC. I see this guy playing in either the EPL or LL soon since he's murked the Dutch league + WC performance
 
Any one going to the Museumplein Amsterdam on sunday? damnTHOSEjs, Noskey?
I was there for Nederland - U'r'gay and going again for the finals
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Originally Posted by PersiaFly

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

Originally Posted by PersiaFly

In that scenario, the team taking a free kick will take a penalty (against one goalkeeper), to score that same goal. It's not really any different than a defender tackling an attacker from behind when he knows he's beat, or a cornerback tackling a receiver who's in position to catch a game winning touchdown. The game has built in penalties, so something can really only be cheating if the player doesn't get caught.
And I don't really agree that this sets some bad precedent, because the scenario is way too rare. A game has to be tied, in the dying moments, and a ball has to be clearly going in with a player in perfect position to slap it away instead of the goalkeeper. If there is even 5 minutes left in the game, most players would let the goal in and try to get it back rather than get ejected and give up a penalty. 

To me, what Suarez did was heroic and commendable. He sacrificed himself and an opportunity to shine on the semifinal stage at a crucial point in his career so that his team might have an ever-so-slight chance to advance. If Gyan would have stepped up and made the penalty like a competent striker should have, Uruguay would have been punished justly for what they did right then and there. 
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A corner kick in the dying seconds of a game is not "rare" at all. And in that situation, the team playing defense could completely barricade themselves and have 3 or even more goalkeepers if what Suarez did doesn't become flat out illegal. Of course they will get a penalty, but who wouldn't want to take a chance on a penalty where the success rate is, what, 70-80% over what would've been a 100% goal. In that situation, where you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, everyone would rather keep a slim hope of the goalkeeper either saving the penalty or as was the case with Gyan, the player missing the penalty.



And you're wrong, what Suarez did was in fact VERY different from stopping a charging attacker from behind by any means necessary when he would only have a goalkeeper to beat. What Suarez prevented with cheating was a 100% GOAL, everyone could see in the replays that the ball was going into the goal. Whether that ball would've ended as a goal is not a subject for debate. Being all alone and having only the goalkeeper to beat is (much like a penalty) a huge chance at scoring a goal, but it's still NOT a GOAL. Even the best players in the world are not certain to score in this situation (see Robben completely wasting a chance yesterday). Being cheated out of a certain goal and being cheated out of a very big chance are two vastly different things.



I sure would've liked to see the reaction if the Algeria defender who was lying on the ground when Landon Donovan scored the goal threw himself and prevented the ball with his hands from going into the goal. Would USA have scored on the penalty? Probably, but not certainly. But I can't help and wonder how much of a "hero" the Algeria defender would've been then had the U.S. missed that penalty.
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You're overblowing the likelihood of this happening again, I think. Players wouldn't barricade the goal because their first priority would be to stop a shot on goal in the first place. This is a tie game, remember. Only if a team got off a shot on goal in the dying seconds of a tie game, and a player found himself as the only person who could stop the shot, would this dilemma come into play. I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen at the World Cup for another 20 years. Given the rarity of this occurence, I think instituting the rule you
suggest would lead to more drama than good, although I do understand
your sentiments.

And it wouldn't always be a 100% goal, that might be oversimplifying things. What if a shot was headed towards the post, and a defender stuck out his arm and pushed it wide? Maybe it would've went in, maybe it would've hit the post. And I'm sure you wouldn't want to put that decision in referees' hands, to decided whether a ball was "certainly" going in or not. In basketball the rule is simplified, it's just whether the ball is on its way down, regardless of where it was going. Can't do that in soccer. That's why a penalty is an appropriate punishment here. A very high probability of scoring from the penalty spot, because you had a very high probability of scoring before a defender handled the ball. Giving teams goals automatically in any situation would create more problems than good, I think. 

To me what Suarez did was akin to people who refuse to pay taxes based on moral grounds. They don't hide the fact, and they don't apologize for it. They deal with the penalties when the time comes. Don't know if such people still exist, but Thoreau is an example. This is much different than people who don't pay taxes for financial/greed reasons, and hope they don't get audited. That's more like what Maradona or Henry did. Huge difference there.
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Again, stop saying that it is unlikely when a free kick or a corner kick in the dying seconds of a game is not unlikely. And besides, whether it's likely or unlikely is completely irrelevant. Uruguay had all of their players defending in that situation. They had plenty of players whose priority is to prevent a shot at the goal. However, the point is that despite this Ghana still got a header on the goal, which was prevented by cheating. A penalty and a red card might seem as harsh punishments at first glance, but they are not really penalties but rather a rewards for a team facing elimination and the situation Uruguay is when the cheating took place. Uruguay prevented a dead certain goal from taking place through cheating and they would've gladly taken two penalties as a punishment if they could, because the odds of both penalties being missed still existed, while the odds of the laws of physics making a U turn and preventing that header going in did not exist. A team should not be rewarded and have the odds of them being out 100%, like they were when Suarez cheated, lowered to 70-80% through blatant cheating. And in the end, that is what it comes down to. This entire situation, unless fixed by the rules will allow teams to effectively have 3 or more goalkeepers whenever they get in a situation where they have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

And yes, they should introduce a goal-tending like rule where if a player blatantly prevents the ball through cheating gets punished.

The message of this rule very simple: If you stop the ball from going into the goal by blatantly extending your hands and preventing the ball from getting into the goal with your hands, then you won't get rewarded by having the odds of a certain goal being scored against you lowered by 20%, but instead be punished by the fact that the opposing team will get the goal acknowledged and on top of that the non-goalkeeper player who prevented the ball with his hands will get a red card. A rule like this would effectively eliminate the discussion of whether the ball would've "certainly" ended as a goal (which it was for Ghana), because if a player knows of this rule, he wouldn't have tried to use his hands to prevent the ball from going in to begin with so the discussion would never come up. So in the end it's very simple: By letting all the players know that there is an extremely harsh punishment for preventing the ball from entering the goal with your hands, no player will even try this, so we won't have to discuss whether the ball would've gone in or not because we will just be able to see whether the ball went in or not.

But maybe goal-tending is a bad example, because most of the goal-tending violations the player goes for a legit block. In this situation, Suarez went for a blatant violation.
 
If it's so likely to happen again, when's the last time something like it happened at the World Cup? At a Euro tournament? In an important Champions League match? Unless you naively think Suarez's action is going to unleash some revolution of goal-line handballs, you should be able to point out several examples of similar conduct in the past right?

Fact of the matter is, this has been a rule of soccer for a long time, and you're missing the point by focusing on Suarez's action instead of looking at Gyan's failure. A goal-tending rule would never be introduced because it would add even more room for discretion for referees, and there is huge pressure on FIFA to relieve referees of such discretionary decisions right now. The issue isn't just whether the ball was going in, the larger issue is whether the conduct was intentional. You don't think players would try to be slick about it? Was Harry Kewell's goal-handball against Ghana intentional? Do you think all instances would be as blatant as Suarez's?

Anyway, I hope Germany wins today. Or rather, I hope Spain doesn't get through with another tight 1-0 win where they dodge 20 bullets and come away because of Villa's individual brilliance. Let's see some action.
 
got my money on germany tonight..
can't believe there's only 1 game left after this (no one really cares about the 3rd place play off 
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No whistles the entire time so far. Spain keep going at the bottom through Sergio Ramos
 
Horrible time for Germany's offense to be completely non-existant. They lucky Spain is having so much mercy.
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