QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[CP1708]

18 years. every snap..Good for you.

I'm sure the Dolphins are very appreciative of your devoted fandom.

But what does that have to do with Ryan Tannehill?

I'm sure there's other mediocre quarterbacks you have an opnion on like the guy you just referenced...Kirk Cousins.

Have you watched every snap he's taken in the NFL?

Probably not....but you...probably like most fans have seen enough of his games and said to yourself..."Yeah this guy isn't very good"

And that's what most rational fans are doing with Tannehill now.

What you talking about being veteran laden? The average NFL career is 3 years.After 3 years you're some type of veteran. The Dolphins offense has 7 starters who are veterans, so it's not like the offense is playing all rookies or something.

Yes the Dolphins defense has been disappointing but I don't know what fool expected them to be a top 1-2 defense after being average last season just because they added Suh.

And you're missing the point...so I'll say it again as bad as defense has been the offense and Tannehill has been worse. They are ranked in the bottom 5 of most offensive categories with the likes of the Texans, Lions and 49ers. Teams with bad quarterback play.

Tannehill is ranked last in first quarter QBR....I don't know how the defense is responsible for him being so poor in the 1st quarter.

Do you poor examples with everything you do?

No, seriously, what, in the ****, are you spouting average length of time for average careers? What the **** is the point of that?

Ryan, Miller, Pounce, James, Landry, Parker, Matthews, Stills, the CORE of the offense are all kids. I don't give a **** what the average career is. Jesus Christ.

Hell, the 2 guards are kids too. Worthless kids at that.

Average length of career.


I don't talk about Kirk Cousins, because I don't care about Kirk Cousins. So please don't speak for me on what I think about him. Just like you need to stop speaking on "rational" fans. You saying rational fans is another way of saying uninformed fans.

100027 said it well enough, I don't need to repeat it. You just need to accept you're not making any valid points.

Can he play better? Absolutely. Has he been our biggest issue? No, not even close. Not even top 10 issues with this team.

1st quarter QBR...............

It's funny, Wash, Jax, Buff, and the Jets all DOMINATED first quarters against us. Cousins/run game, Bortles, Tyrod/run game, and Fitzpatrick/run game. All huge first quarters. Early scores, long drives, heavy TOP.

Thas on Ryan tho. . QBR.

 

[CP1708]

I'm big on wear/tear. 2 SB runs is 6-7 extra hard fought games, can take extra toll.

Take that, add loss of DC, add Kam out 2 games, add Lynch banged up, add new role Jimmy, add Cary Williams......... little outta sorts. That's all.

They were 6-4 last year, then hit the switch. They know how to pace themselves.

While as you know I'm very fond of your wear & tear theory for basketball I really don't think it applies here.

I just don't think they're as deep as they used to be. Factor in those injuries & replacements that are not as good as the ones who left. They're coming back to the field.

It's lesser than NBA, no doubt. It's not a heavy impact, but there is "some" effects from it.

And depth might be a factor, sure, but how much depth have they lost? What key players are missing?
And coming back to the pack.......eh. Maybe, but still early. They can totally hit another gear at some point.

 

[mister friendly]

You're the one who referenced Kirk Cousins the first place.

Now you're not talking about Kirk Cousins?

I referenced the average career is 3 years because you keep acting like players in their 4th year are kids.

When that's actually when players are entering their prime, notice I said prime not peak.

The production you get from a starter in year 3 and year 4, the majority of the time becomes what you are going to get from them throughout their career.

Yes the defense has been poor in the 1st quarter but so has the offense....what has Tannehill been doing in 1st quarter?

I used 1st quarter QBR because you keep using the excuse that's trailing. If the quarterback isn't doing anything in 1st quarter, don't you run the risk of trailing especially if your defense is not playing great.

Doesn't Tannehill and the offense have some sort of responsibility to move the ball a little and not consistently go 3 and out?

Tannehill could play better?

That's an extreme understatement...he's at the bottom of most quarterback categories.

I know you're going to say the Bills and Jets are legit defenses but what about the Jaguars and ********?

He really only played well for a couple of quarters vs the Jaguars.

You act the quarterback is just one of 11 guys in the division of blame for a poor offense when we all know that's not true.

We're discussing this in the Quarterback thread...not the offensive guard thread... Obviously I think quarterback play is a big factor in whether or not an offense plays well or poorly.

 

[CP1708]

After the Jags/Skins games, he had a 90+ rating, no INT's, and had played well enough to be 2-0.

Vernon's ridiculous penalty cost them dearly, as did Bortles lighting them up in the first half.

Ryan was also the first QB to 300 the Jags in 14-15 games.

And both games featured big drops by Jennings, and Landry.

He started well enough, but clearly struggled vs Bills and Jets. Luckily, he had no run game, poor Oline play, drops, and for some reason no first round pick to work with. Oh, and Philbin "prepping" the team each week, and no Branden Albert.

Rise above tho, I know.

He's no Matt Hasselbeck, that's for sure.

 

[CP1708]

Look, we all get it. You want to blame every single thing on a QB. Every detail to you is an excuse and only a QB deserves credit or blame, no one else.

That ain't me. I believe the other 52 guys + 20+ coaches can do their jobs too.

The Bengals are great, cuz Dalton.
The Cardinals are great, cuz Palmer.
The Seahawks are great, cuz Russ.
The Giants won 2 Super Bowls, cuz Eli.

We get it. QB = entire team.

You can move on now. No need to counter anymore. We're good. White flag, hail Hasselbeck, Dalton was great as a sophomore, Elway carried Terrell Davis, etc.

 

[jpzx]

What do we think about Chase Daniel, who's in the final year of a 3-yr/10m contract he signed with Kansas City before the 2013 season.

UFA this offseason. He turned 29 last week, one of the league's 6-foot quarterbacks.

Two career starts:

He started Week 16, 2013 against the Chargers' fourth-ranked pass defense, and was 21-30 for 200 yards (70.0 Cmp%, average yard per pass attempt: 6.67), 1 TD, 0 INT. Also had 59 rushing yards on seven attempts.

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Then, he started in Week 16, 2014, again against the Chargers, who - this time, only one year later - had the 29th-ranked pass defense. He was considerably worse. He was 16-29 (59.3 Cmp%, average yard per pass attempt: 5.81.) Didn't throw a TD, but didn't turn the ball over. 0 TD, 0 INT.

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I really think there's something here, at least worth checking into.

This was an interesting clause in his current contract with Kansas City.

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[100027]

What do we think about Chase Daniel, who's in the final year of a 3-yr/10m contract he signed with Kansas City before the 2013 season.

UFA this offseason. He turned 29 last week, one of the league's 6-foot quarterbacks.

Two career starts:

He started Week 16, 2013 against the Chargers' fourth-ranked pass defense, and was 21-30 for 200 yards (70.0 Cmp%, average yard per pass attempt: 6.67), 1 TD, 0 INT. Also had 59 rushing yards on seven attempts.



Then, he started in Week 16, 2014, again against the Chargers, who - this time, only one year later - had the 29th-ranked pass defense. He was considerably worse. He was 16-29 (59.3 Cmp%, average yard per pass attempt: 5.81.) Didn't throw a TD, but didn't turn the ball over. 0 TD, 0 INT.




I really think there's something here, at least worth checking into.

This was an interesting clause in his current contract with Kansas City.

They were into him bigtime when they signed him.  With that said, don't you think there's a reason he hasn't got a shot in KC?  

 

[jpzx]

Yeah, the reason is that Alex Smith's had 46 TD, 16 int + a playoff berth + nearly out-threw Andrew Luck in that Wild Card game to advance (378 yards, 4 TD, 0 int, 65.2 Cmp%) since Daniel signed the deal.

No reason to alter things if that affordable contract they got Daniel for would be null and void if he ever threw over 2,000 yards or had 12 TDs - until now since he'll be an UFA after this season so why not just see what you have there in a season that will ultimately be lost because of the Jamaal Charles injury.

I bet we will get an extended look at him later in the 2015 season.

 

[100027]

I've always been weary on kicking the tires on teams back ups.

It seldom works.

You would know.

When's the last time that really paid off? Alex Smith kind of?

 

[mister friendly]

I place blame when its warranted. I look at results, not what ifs.

The Jaguars not allowing a 300 yard passer for that long might be a bigger deal, if they weren't losing by average of over 10 points a game, ranked in 29th in opponent passer rating, 27th in run defense.

But please continue about that great Jaguar defense.

Also you realize it's not 1984 anymore?

A 90 rating isn't some great feat anymore.

This season a 90 passer rating is about the league average. Which is very fitting for a player, I've repeatedly said is average.

Look If a player is your guy, you look for every excuse in the book for them

Tannehill gets hit...."Oh the offensive line sucks" -Not realizing the quarterback is holding the ball too long and that most modern passing concepts work off timing.

"Jennings/Landry drop passes" -not realizing your favorite quarterback having accuracy issues can make drops more likely.

"Tannehill threw an pick because he was pressured"- Ignoring the fact if the defense shows a blitz, its on the quarterback to get rid of the ball hot, not hesitate when seeing the blitz then wait til he get hits and throw the ball like Tannehill did on his pick six vs the Bills.

Lets ignore the fact that Tannehill is one the worst deep ball quarterbacks in the NFL, like that couldnt handicap an NFL offense at all (like an Alex Smith)...Lets blame Lazor.

Lets ignore the times when Tannehill has a clean pocket and totally misfires to an wide open guy.

Let's ignore that if you take away Tannehill first read and check down, he freezes.

Yes all 45 guys have shares to winning and losing in the NFL.

Ryan Tannehill, your highest paid player has a share in the offenses faults , just like Jason Fox, your 31st highest player does.

"Tannehill gets paid 20 times the amount I do though!"

Shut up...we are a team!

 

[100027]

Alex Smith wasn't really aback up per say? They' just went with the young more athletic version of Alex Smith.

Back ups that went to flourish on another team?

Farve number one

Schaub was a back up as well

Jay Fielder has a decent run.

Schaub is actually the best legit example.

 

[CP1708]

I place blame when its warranted. I look at results, not what ifs.

The Jaguars not allowing a 300 yard passer for that long might be a bigger deal, if they weren't losing by average of over 10 points a game, ranked in 29th in opponent passer rating, 27th in run defense.

But please continue about that great Jaguar defense.

Also you realize it's not 1984 anymore?

A 90 rating isn't some great feat anymore.

This season a 90 passer rating is about the league average. Which is very fitting for a player, I've repeatedly said is average.

Look If a player is your guy, you look for every excuse in the book for them

Tannehill gets hit...."Oh the offensive line sucks" -Not realizing the quarterback is holding the ball too long and that most modern passing concepts work off timing.

"Jennings/Landry drop passes" -not realizing your favorite quarterback having accuracy issues can make drops more likely.

"Tannehill threw an pick because he was pressured"- Ignoring the fact if the defense shows a blitz, its on the quarterback to get rid of the ball hot, not hesitate when seeing the blitz then wait til he get hits and throw the ball like Tannehill did on his pick six vs the Bills.

Lets ignore the fact that Tannehill is one the worst deep ball quarterbacks in the NFL, like that couldnt handicap an NFL offense at all (like an Alex Smith)...Lets blame Lazor.

Lets ignore the times when Tannehill has a clean pocket and totally misfires to an wide open guy.

Let's ignore that if you take away Tannehill first read and check down, he freezes.

Yes all 45 guys have shares to winning and losing in the NFL.

Ryan Tannehill, your highest paid player has a share in the offenses faults , just like Jason Fox, your 31st highest player does.

"Tannehill gets paid 20 times the amount I do though!"

Shut up...we are a team!

not realizing your favorite quarterback having accuracy issues can make drops more likely.

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Where, exactly, would you like him to put the ball, other than 2 God damn hands, for an NFL receiver or TE? Accuracy issues? Eli Manning throws the ball 8 yards to the wrong side, and his receiver snags it. Ryan is hitting palms of ******* hands, and "accuracy issues" cause that?

Tannehill gets hit...."Oh the offensive line sucks" -Not realizing the quarterback is holding the ball too long and that most modern passing concepts work off timing.

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Switching to the "All-22" coaches film from the game, we can now see all five of the Dolphins' receivers, and we can see exactly why Tannehill, in the 2.3 seconds he had to make a decision and deliver a pass, did not get off the pass. There was simply no one open. Charles Clay, in the middle of the field, appears to be the primary target on the play, but he is double covered, with linebackers on either side of him. There is simply no where for Tannehill to deliver the ball, and he takes the sack rather than try to force something that isn't there.

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This play is a long developing one, with Tannehill reaching the end of his drop before any of the receivers have even started their breaks. The pocket seems to be forming well, with Tannehill able to step up into it. Unfortunately, with the length of the routes being run, Tannehill does not have a chance to make a quick decision and deliver the ball - no one is even looking for the ball yet, let alone open:

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Tannehill does appear to go through his progressions, and probably should have found Clay, coming out of the backfield having lined up as the fullback, but Clay appears to be his fourth read on the pattern. Watching his head after the snap, Tannehill comes off a play fake and take a look at Brandon Gibson, who is at the bottom of the screen, or the far right of the offense. He immediately moves on to Brian Hartline, at the top of the screen. Hesitating there slight, he then comes back to the middle, where Mike Wallace is working the seam of the field. He flicks his head left at the last second, looking like he is then moving to Clay, only to feel the pressure and try to drop the ball and start running. Hali swats the ball and pulls Tannehill down, where he recovers the fumble.

Flipping to the All-22 view, Miami really does not have anyone open in the 1.83 seconds between snap and pressure.

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Conclusion

I honestly thought I would see exactly what we all expected to see. Tannehill holding the ball too long, missing open receivers, and being sacked. Yet, that's not what is necessarily happening. It seems that on all four plays, something different happened. One play, the pressure got to Tannehill too quickly for anything to happen. One play, the routes were way too long, and Tannehill could not deliver a quick pass because there was no one looking for the ball quickly. One play, Tannehill tried to run, but was blocked before he could escape, and one play was a bad decision.

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Ian Wharton ‏@NFLFilmStudy Sep 29
If the defense stands in the exact spot they line up, they are STILL in position to defend ALL of these routes

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Indeed. Modern concepts, and timing.

With me providing MULTIPLE examples of routes, that are not open. Or routes, with multiple receivers, in the same area (easier to defend) But hey, let us blame our QB for getting sacked, or "holding the ball" too long, and "TIMING". Yes Ryan, YOU are at fault for not throwing to covered receivers, with timing, when none of them are open, and are all bunched up.


And lastly, this part right here

Lets ignore the fact that Tannehill is one the worst deep ball quarterbacks in the NFL, like that couldnt handicap an NFL offense at all (like an Alex Smith)...Lets blame Lazor.

Tells me exactly what I've been telling you. You read/believe narratives, but don't actually watch the games he's played. This quote, right here, is how I know you're reading some lazy writer or PTI type show.

We have plenty of examples of good throws, dropped. (see above for some of them) and we also have some examples of poorly designed plays that cause the mis timing. (Last year Miami and Denver ran exact same play, with one wrinkle. Miami put in a Play action, meaning the receiver was deeper downfield, Peyton did not, and was able to just loft the ball and let DT run under it. We dissected it over and over on Twitter, and I brought the example into the Dolphin thread for others to see.)

But, surely you knew that already.

I look at results, not what ifs.

"I read a boxscore, stop using facts and All 22"



Like I said, it's cool man. I get it. Always on the QB. We're good. You are right, I am wrong, Hail Hasselbeck.

 

[dmxfury]

The Tannenhill saga continues...

Wu Tang, Wu Tang

 

[quell]

Nice post, CP

 

[dmxfury]

I'd love to see posts like this about Ben

I just watch

 

[mister friendly]

For as many gifs you can find of Dolphins receivers drops I can find as many gifs of Tannehill blunders

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Anyways the fact that Ryan Tannehill has major problems with deep ball accuracy is well known.

Its not just an "PTI" narrative which I don't get why you keep making fun of, considering your boy Le Batard that you referenced appears on the show regularly.

Its backed up by empirical data... Tannehill is averaging 6.32 yards per pass attempt which is ranked 33rd in the NFL this season.
Miami has just 12 passing plays of 20 yards or more this season.

Keep defending your boy Tannehill.

Patriots, Jets and Bills fans all hope that y'all keep him, so y'all can be stuck in .500 and below seasons.

 

[a55a5in11]

I'd love to see posts like this about Ben

I just watch

Or Russ

 

[CP1708]

I can dig around for Ben and Russ examples for you guys. Gimme a couple days to dig. I'll report back.


MF, focus. "Deep ball issues" "averages X yards a completion"......completion. I just pointed out multiple perfectly thrown deep balls, DROPPED. No yards. Incomplete. Can't have stats when you have 50 yard dimes, dropped. Box scores don't show you that.

Watching every single snap, ever, does.

 

[mister friendly]

Excuses.

When your talking point cant be backed up by empirical data ...resort to the "You don't watch games" reply....word to the NBA thread.

 

[CP1708]

I backed the point up with actual gifs, and photos.

Mike Wallace vs Carolina
Damien Williams at New England
Dion Sims vs New England

I couldn't find a Brian Hartline vs Buffalo one.

There was also a perfect throw in OT vs Cincy that would have been 80, but Wallace was tackled for PI to prevent the catch. I should have looked for that one, but why bother, you'd dismiss it anyway. It doesn't show up in your google box score.


"When I can't use box scores, I use the word excuses."

Who is, Mister Friendly, Alex.

 

[mister friendly]

I posted gifs of Tannehill blunders.

You posted 2 gifs...I posted like 5 gifs

Dude has thrown like 2000 passes in the NFL...no amount of gifs can cover all his throws....All the misfires and badly thrown passes.



Box scores? Thats your standard reply when the data doesn't back up when your opinions.

You act like the games I've referenced are like an obscure Hawaii Football game, that somebody has stay up til 3am to watch. The games I've referenced were National TV games or large audience games.

I'm actually honest and tell you what games I've watched. I don't need watch every snap of Ryan Tannehill to tell you hes mediocre.

What does Ryan Tannehill do that makes you imagine that hes even a top 10 quarterback?

Like honestly what are his elite traits or even stuff he does at an above average level?

Like what differentiates him from Alex Smith?

 

[CP1708]

Joe Philbin.

Alex has been coached by Urban Meyer, Jim Harbaugh, and Andy Reid.

Ryan has grown under Philbin, Mike Sherman, and Lazor.

You'll file that under excuse.


Ryan is actually extremely accurate as a thrower. (When given time).

He's very good on the move, roll outs, moving the pocket.

He's been really good with motion. Helps him get reads on defenses.

He has a near photographic memory. (Tho a lot of QB's have that)

His arm is strong as you can need. That Wallace drop, he threw 65 yards cross field while getting hit. It was a prayer, that hit Wallace on both hands, but fell to the earth.

He's tough as nails. Billion sacks, gets up every time. Lot of QB's break from that. (Hell, he still might if they don't patch this **** soon.)

No "elite" traits. But he's tough, smart, accurate, can make the throws, and he's accurate. Not Rodgers precise, but accurate. Again, drops skew his %'s.

He also protects the ball fairly well, minus some bad luck. Landry drop INT, the Daniel Thomas kick INT ( )
The Carolina 52 tip INT, the Buffalo down 19 final play/throw of the game INT and a couple tipped pass ones. (This just off the top of my head).

Add it all up, he's much better than what we've molded him in to.

Now he has a TE's coach for a head coach. Surely that will fix things.

 

[CP1708]

You guys have the floor for the weekend.

I.......sorry, Chester and I, have the Cubs games this weekend. I have to focus. DMX understands.

 

[mister friendly]

Having Mike Sherman and Bill Lazor as coaches has actually helped him.

Sherman was his college coach and was a decent NFL coach with the Packers and Texans. Having Sherman as his offensive coordinator helped him. Having a coach who had worked with him before and understood him strengths and weakness and designed an offense as such. Sherman ran a West Coast version of the spread.

Bill Lazor brought a Chip Kellyesque system. a system that helped Nick Foles set career highs. The system is almost a mini spread which is a system, Tannehill has played in since HS, which has lessened the standard NFL learning curve, many quarterbacks have to go thru.

Hes accurate on short and intermediate timing throws when the pocket breaks down, he flashes good scrambling ability but he also freezes equally which causes him to get hit. His deep ball accuracy is definitely below average like Alex Smith. He protects the ball well like Alex Smith.

You're vastly overstating the impact of drops.

The amount of drops for Dolphins receivers have been around the middle of the pack, each season Tannehill has played.

 

[T0INE]

The Tannenhill saga continues...

Wu Tang, Wu Tang

CP and Friendly need to settle this once and for all in a Last Man Standing match with "The Official Ryan Tannenhill Narrative" on the line as a stipulation.