QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[dmxfury]

Cliff and his notes helped destroy young minds learning the greatest literature written

(Rant for another day)

 

[mister friendly]

No way I'm reading all that
Cliff notes b

Well as usual, he always leaves stuff out and writes perspectives to fit his long winded narrative.

Basically he said there's so many factors and unknown variables that go into Football games, so why try to rate anybody.

I don't know...sounds defeated to me, when this same dude was all about ranking players as recently as the beginning of the season.

 

[tripda6]

Like I've said many times..are Dolphins games password protected or something?

 

While there is no doubt in my mind that Alex Smith is currently a better QB than Colin Kaepernick....no problem admitting that.

However, I still wholeheartedly believe the switch was the correct move, and I don't for one second want Alex Smith back. I know he is having some success with KC, but I have no desire to want ANY quarterback who cannot put his team on his back and win games for them. In all honesty, I would rather have no quarterbacks at all, than a QB like Alex Smith. Being stuck in mediocrity is far worse than not having a QB. Alex is just good enough to trick feeble minded front offices that he is good enough to not search for a new QB.

I love KC's defense. WIth that defense and a better QB, they would be able to challenge for a SB spot in that weak *** AFC. But with Alex, I cant imagine they go very far. I don't want my team to be held back by QB play. Sans 2012 and 2013, I have been reading that book since Jeff Garcia was my team's QB.

agree with all of this.

Although I was kinda meh on Kap for most of the 2013 season...

See all 3 Seattle games(4th qtr of the NFCCG

), the Carolina game, and the Colts game

 

[dmxfury]

Well as usual, he always leaves stuff out and writes perspectives to fit his long winded narrative.

Basically he said there's so many factors and unknown variables that go into Football games, so why try to rate anybody.

I don't know...sounds defeated to me, when this same dude was all about ranking players as recently as the beginning of the season.

View media item 1834550

But seriously there are so many variables when it comes to wins and losses, pretty crazy to think about it. That said I'm still relying on the old, outdated eye test. Just watching players you get a feel for who is really good, pretty good, average and poor over time. It's opinion based, it's unscientific, but I still think it works

 

[100027]

But seriously there are so many variables when it comes to wins and losses, pretty crazy to think about it. That said I'm still relying on the old, outdated eye test. Just watching players you get a feel for who is really good, pretty good, average and poor over time. It's opinion based, it's unscientific, but I still think it works

Basically I respect the methods others use for their evaluation unless I disagree with them...  Unless I really  disagree with them 

Thing about the "eye test" is everyone's eye test is different and we don't all watch the same games.  I think we're too easy to discount stats, even if you have to be aware of their limitations.

 

[DeadsetAce]

the "eye test" is definitely different between different people...but overall, it's tough to argue with. and again, it's not the end all, be all of the discussion either. it's a decently sized factor for me though.

 

[100027]

the "eye test" is definitely different between different people...but overall, it's tough to argue with. and again, it's not the end all, be all of the discussion either. it's a decently sized factor for me though.

Sure but the "eye test" is also the most subjective thing possible which is why it's used as "Evidence" for the most absurd statements around here.  The eye test tells me that Tom Brady is a system QB who relies on Belicheck's play calling, while I see Peyton truly stepping up and commanding the offense as a leader and basically team OC.  That's what my eyes tell me.  How can you argue with that?

As a Seahawks fan that usually means arguing with people who claim that their "eye test" tells them Russell Wilson is Mark Sanchez despite literally every piece of factual evidence saying they're not even remotely comparable.  

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Tom > Peyton and it's not even close

 

[DeadsetAce]

Sure but the "eye test" is also the most subjective thing possible which is why it's used as "Evidence" for the most absurd statements around here.  The eye test tells me that Tom Brady is a system QB who relies on Belicheck's play calling, while I see Peyton truly stepping up and commanding the offense as a leader and basically team OC.  That's what my eyes tell me.  How can you argue with that?

easily can argue that. Belichick doesn't call the plays on offense. never has.

Bill has always been a defensive guru. he's never been some great offensive mind.

now style of play (run heavy to stretching the field to double TEs)...that structure is put into place by Bill. But it's Brady and Josh/Bill O'Brien that really have turned those offenses into juggernauts.

and the one constant amongst all the moving pieces on offense (coaches, OC's, players, etc) is Brady.



EDIT: just to add, most people view Brady an on field OC, just like Peyton as well. Belichick has even said he's like another coach other there.

 

[skurrtskurrt29]

Throughout his career, Ben Roethlisberger has been like a Quentin Tarantino movie: everyone knows he’s great, but no one knows exactly why. That remains true this season. Cam Newton has become the media darling. Aaron Rodgers remains the QB people would most want to build around over the next five years. Tom Brady is the resident icon, on his way to possibly being the G.O.A.T.

Roethlisberger has played as well as any of these guys. The Steelers are 6-3 in games that he’s taken the majority of the snaps, and his 332 passing yards per outing lead the league. And remember, he’s playing in an offense that’s lost star running back Le’Veon Bell as well as starters at the two most important positions up front: center (Maurkice Pouncey) and left tackle (Kelvin Beachum). Yes, others have stepped up. Running back DeAngelo Williams has been fantastic, doing everything Bell does albeit at a slightly less explosive level. Cody Wallace has been steady at center and undrafted 27-year-old Alejandro Villanueva has managed to stay above water at left tackle. Pittsburgh’s pass protection has been among the NFL’s best, particularly in recent weeks.

Effective as the backups-turned-starters have been, the Steelers would not be in playoff contention without Big Ben. Early in his career, Roethlisberger would post sterling numbers—not necessarily on a weekly basis, but fairly often. When he did, it was attributed to his unparalleled knack for extending plays. We’ve all seen him shed would-be sackers, create throwing windows with pump fakes and, like a bull who won’t be corralled, lumber outside the pocket to break down a defense. Roethlisberger has always been dominant if not unstoppable with movement.

But somehow we overlook what happens at the end of that movement: his passes. Roethlisberger is an unbelievable thrower of the football. His arm strength is among the NFL’s very best and so is his precision accuracy. It’s one thing for a quarterback to extend the play. It’s quite another for him to cap it off with a pinpointed deep ball or intermediate strike while under duress. In the early 2000s, Michael Vick was deemed the league’s most athletic quarterback. But it’s Roethlisberger who has always been the most physically gifted man at the position. Because of Roethlisberger’s brutish style, it was presumed that his talents would begin to diminish by his mid-30s, much like it did for Steve McNair, who played the position in a similar way. Instead, Roethlisberger, at 33, is better than ever. That’s because he’s expanded his game in ways that few believed possible. Over the last five years, in fact, Roethlisberger has improved more than any NFL quarterback. And once again, people are failing to recognize the nuances of his greatness.

When offensive coordinator Todd Haley joined the Steelers in 2012, he installed a quicker dropback system with the idea of protecting Roethlisberger from himself. The 240-pound QB wouldn’t suffer so many hits if he threw the ball at the top of a three-step drop. Roethlisberger had played in sharply crafted systems before, but had never been firmly held to the structure of pocket timing. Operating under such rigidity surely felt foreign.

Not surprisingly, there were growing pains. Roethlisberger and Haley are both regarded as alpha males whose personalities can sometimes be like wrecking balls. The two initially had an uncomfortable feeling-out period, but that’s changed thanks to their on-field success.

“He’s as competitive of a guy as there is. I’m the same way,” Haley told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette’s Ron Cook earlier this month. “I think we’re similar personalities. When I meet new people, I don’t let many in right out of the gate. It wasn’t going to happen overnight.” In that same article Roethlisberger said, “I think that we’re understanding each other. We’re understanding what each other is thinking.”

Coverage of the improved coach-quarterback relationship has been scarce, not because the topic is invalid but because, well, harmony is less interesting than strife.
It helps that Haley’s approach has worked better than expected. Not only has Roethlisberger taken less pounding, he’s maintained his sandlot playmaking prowess without having to be reliant on it. He’s become one of the best field generals in football. He even handles much of the play-calling in two-minute situations; the Steelers lead the league with 82 total points in such scenarios.

Roethlisberger now has the acumen to consistently identify coverages and pressure concepts before the snap, whereas before he would often diagnose the defense after the snap. A big aid has been the amount of spread formations called by Haley. Coverage and blitz disguises aren’t available when defenders are forced to follow receivers out wide, putting more ground between the corners, safeties and linebackers.

The spread formations also emphasize Pittsburgh’s overwhelming speed at wide receiver. Deep balls on longer dropbacks can be available when you have Martavis Bryant, Markus Wheaton, Darrius Heyward-Bey and especially Antonio Brown. And for the purposes of Pittsburgh’s down-to-down offense, even more significant is the fact that the receiver’s speed (how long it takes to get from A to B) is blended with quickness (how fast you move around within those two points while, for example, trying to shake a defender.) This is one of the key distinctions between Bryant and previous deep threat Mike Wallace. Besides being lethal on screens and end-arounds, all of Pittsburgh’s wideouts can reach the sticks on three-step-timing throws, presenting the option of post and seam patterns in any circumstance.
A great illustration of this threat mixed with Roethlisberger’s newfound proficiency came in Week 3 on consecutive deep-slant completions to Brown.

Though he’s not mobile in the traditional sense, Roethlisberger embodies what every offensive coordinator wants from athletic, run-oriented quarterbacks. The age-old debate is how often you let a mobile QB rely on his legs versus having him play in the pocket. Fans, analysts and other outsiders tend to say you should let the quarterback run, lest you hinder his greatest strength. Coaches often argue that pocket passing is essential. What outsiders overlook is that when you teach a QB to play in the pocket, you’re not taking away the strength of his running; you’re simply adding strengths to his passing. A quarterback won’t forget how to leave the pocket and improvise just because he’s asked to play more within structure.

Roethlisberger remains as good as anyone at making something happen when a play breaks down. But he’s also as good as anyone at preventing plays from breaking down. It’s this unexpected quarterbacking maturity that makes Pittsburgh the biggest threat to the Patriots in the AFC.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/12/16/nfl-ben-roethlisberger-pittsburgh-steelers

 

[CP1708]

the "eye test" is definitely different between different people...but overall, it's tough to argue with. and again, it's not the end all, be all of the discussion either. it's a decently sized factor for me though.

Sure but the "eye test" is also the most subjective thing possible which is why it's used as "Evidence" for the most absurd statements around here.  The eye test tells me that Tom Brady is a system QB who relies on Belicheck's play calling, while I see Peyton truly stepping up and commanding the offense as a leader and basically team OC.  That's what my eyes tell me.  How can you argue with that?

As a Seahawks fan that usually means arguing with people who claim that their "eye test" tells them Russell Wilson is Mark Sanchez despite literally every piece of factual evidence saying they're not even remotely comparable.  

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Tom > Peyton and it's not even close

It isn't relying on Bill's play calling. It's relying on Bill's teaching. Not Tom, 52 other guys.

Bill takes out player after player after player, NE stays dominant.
Run heavy, defense based team.
To Randy Moss, Wes Welker offensive juggernaut.
They leave, Gronk and murderer based O.
Murderer leaves, Edelman steps in.
RB after RB steps in or out.
Vinateri clutch kicker for life, kicks him out, Gostkowski does job just as well.
Loses Revis, doesn't miss a beat.
Plug and play any defender, Special teamer, olineman, they ALL know their job. They all do it right, and smart.

They know trick plays, formations, situational play calling, how to work sidelines, call timeouts, don't make stupid penalties, they just flat out don't beat themselves.

They attack every weakness you have, and scheme their own weaknesses to limit their damage.

Point being, Tom can just be Tom and do his job, Bill has coached up every single player so well they all have an impact one way or another.


Do all QB's have those same luxuries?

 

[mister friendly]

Before Brady became his starting quarterback had 42-56 career record..6 seasons, one winning season quarterback. Had Pro Bowl caliber quarterbacks in Drew Bledsoe, Testaverde and Kosar.

Only winning season, with the Browns the season Oilers owner Adams voluntarily broke up the team.

42-56 career record in 6 seasons.

Along comes Tom Brady now suddenly Bill Belichick is the greatest coach in the history of the NFL?

Like Tom Brady doesn't mask a lot of Bekichick deficiencies.

* waits for he won with Matt Cassell but missed the playoffs argument.

 

[skurrtskurrt29]

I always thought the Brady needs BB rhetoric was interesting, considering BB was a pretty mediocre coach before going to NE. We see who benefited the most from it for sure.

 

[rolaholic]

No one ever does well in Cleveland so he gets a pass from me there but it is funny that he never had anywhere near the success as a HC that he got once TB came along. I don't buy that one made the other,it's a symbiotic relationship

 

[mister friendly]

No one ever does well in Cleveland so he gets a pass from me there but it is funny that he never had anywhere near the success as a HC that he got once TB came along. I don't buy that one made the other,it's a symbiotic relationship

Actually Marty did pretty well with the Browns.
Also Modells Browns and these Browns are different.

And yes I agree Brady and Belichick have a symbiotic relationship.

That's one of hardest things for any coach to able to have.

 

[100027]

It isn't relying on Bill's play calling. It's relying on Bill's teaching. Not Tom, 52 other guys.

Bill takes out player after player after player, NE stays dominant.
Run heavy, defense based team.
To Randy Moss, Wes Welker offensive juggernaut.
They leave, Gronk and murderer based O.
Murderer leaves, Edelman steps in.
RB after RB steps in or out.
Vinateri clutch kicker for life, kicks him out, Gostkowski does job just as well.
Loses Revis, doesn't miss a beat.
Plug and play any defender, Special teamer, olineman, they ALL know their job. They all do it right, and smart.

They know trick plays, formations, situational play calling, how to work sidelines, call timeouts, don't make stupid penalties, they just flat out don't beat themselves.

They attack every weakness you have, and scheme their own weaknesses to limit their damage.

Point being, Tom can just be Tom and do his job, Bill has coached up every single player so well they all have an impact one way or another.


Do all QB's have those same luxuries?

I don't believe that, I'm just using that as an example of how the "eye test" can be used to claim any opinion you like.

I actually strongly disagree with the statement about Brady.

 

[100027]

easily can argue that. Belichick doesn't call the plays on offense. never has.

Bill has always been a defensive guru. he's never been some great offensive mind.

now style of play (run heavy to stretching the field to double TEs)...that structure is put into place by Bill. But it's Brady and Josh/Bill O'Brien that really have turned those offenses into juggernauts.

and the one constant amongst all the moving pieces on offense (coaches, OC's, players, etc) is Brady.



EDIT: just to add, most people view Brady an on field OC, just like Peyton as well. Belichick has even said he's like another coach other there.

Damn people believe I was making that statement, I guess I was not clear.  I think that statement is wrong.

 

[DeadsetAce]

Nah I know you were. I meant to people who do haha

 

[CP1708]

It's chicken and egg anyway.

Brady wasn't special at Michigan, was the skinny nothing guy at Draft combine. 6th round, 199 etc.

When he came in, he was winning games throwing for 90 yards, etc.

Bill was an ELITE defensive coordinator. Those Giant defenses were monsters.

And really it comes down too Brady doesn't make kickers better, or defensive players, or assistant coaches.

Again, we're just gonna give QB's credit for everything, always? Then why do great QB's rise and fall? Why is Ben not 12-2 every year? Why does Eli win 2 Super Bowls and now has a losing record? Why were the Ravens champs 3 years ago and garbage now? Why do the Saints suck?

**** man, now entire franchises are only good cuz of one position?


Because that's what is said if you believe Brady built NE, not Bill. Or Peyton in Indy. The Giants making the SB without Simms. 9ers were still great without Joe. Colts won 33 games in 3 years after Peyton.

Again, Carson Palmer sucks in Oakland, great in Arizona.

It's way more than just QB. Crediting everything to the QB spot is just a simplistic way of eval'ing everything.

Favre wasn't great in college, or Atl, and GB grew around him, not because of him. GB also continued after he left, and Aaron is one of the best ever, they don't win every year. Hell, they have 2 in 20 years with two of the best ever. Same as Eli Manning in 10 less years.

Stop giving all credit, and all blame to one position on a 53 man team.

NBA, 5 on a court, play O and D, ok, there's a diff convo, but NFL, MLB are completely different.

 

[100027]

I agree with you that QBs get too much credit/blame for everything, but they do deserve some credit. It's still the most important position in football, and all the surrounding talent in the world can't make a mediocre player elite.

 

[skurrtskurrt29]

Quite honestly, I'm a firm believer that QB is the most important position in sports. If you don't have a franchise QB, you don't have anything. Of course there's instances where that hasn't been the case. However that's the exception, not the rule. (Not saying 'rule' in a definite way.)

Again, that's my way of thinking.

I'm not gonna act like more doesn't go into it. It's a complex sport and one guy doesn't make team, so simplifying it like that might not be fair. But *shrugs*

 

[mister friendly]

Moving the goalposts...I see.

Now dude is hyping up Belchick the coordinator as to why he's so important to Brady sucess. Ignoring his unsuccessful years as head coach of the Browns and Patriots with good quarterbacks such as Bledsoe, Testaverde and Kosar.

Same dude says Dan Marino is the greatest of all time and dismisses Don Shulas role in Marinos sucess. You know the Shula who won 2 Super Bowls, won six Coach of the Year awards.

Yeah that Shula.

*waits for the 1986-1989 drafting argument again.

Nobody said quarterbacks deserves ALL the blame but they play a HUGE PART between winning and losing in the NFL.

 

[CP1708]

I agree with you that QBs get too much credit/blame for everything, but they do deserve some credit. It's still the most important position in football, and all the surrounding talent in the world can't make a mediocre player elite.

Absolutely. I'm not advocating for 52 guys to get credit, and not the QB.

I just don't buy the QB > other 52. (+ coaches) combined.

There's so many factors that go into an NFL team. Unseen. Schedule. Injuries. Coaching. Contract drive for certain guys. Refs. Distractions. And that's just one year.
Over several years there is no way to quantify who does what and apply it. So just wrap it all up into one position and call it good and credit goes here....just seems shortsighted.

And before I forget, I never said dismiss all stats. I wasn't sure if you meant me or not. I get they help. They also mislead. At some point, its a mix of both eyes, and stats. And even that isn't perfect cuz we don't know the calls, or what was practiced, or routes, or coverages, etc. So many variables.

 

[CP1708]

MF, like Palmer in Oak, and Palmer in Ari, it IS possible for Bill to fail in Clev, but learn and apply in NE.

Better owner, better resources, maybe even better assistants.

You want to credit Brady for teaching kickers how to do their jobs.
Or Malcolm Butler, or Olineman, or gunners on the punt team, go ahead. I'm gonna go on the limb that Brady doesn't teach all those players their job.

Bill (and his staff) prepare their units, week after week. You go ahead and credit Tom.

Bill Parcells took young Bledsoe to the SB in 96. 4 years later, same team went back. It's quite possible they would have still gone with or without Tom/Drew. In fact, didn't Bledsoe play in the AFC title game when Tom was hurt?

It's possible Bill learned, and could have won with Drew, same as Tom. But we'll never know.

I do know NE is a great team, every year. And not because one player. Because every player on their team contributes. Because they are better prepared for every situation.

The QB doesn't do that.

 

[CP1708]

Quite honestly, I'm a firm believer that QB is the most important position in sports. If you don't have a franchise QB, you don't have anything. Of course there's instances where that hasn't been the case. However that's the exception, not the rule. (Not saying 'rule' in a definite way.)

Again, that's my way of thinking.

I'm not gonna act like more doesn't go into it. It's a complex sport and one guy doesn't make team, so simplifying it like that might not be fair. But *shrugs*

Repped.

But defining, franchise QB may prove difficult.

Dalton?
Rivers?
Eli?
Cam?
Palmer?
Flacco?

Up one year, down the next, back up, back down.....how judge who's who?

 

[DeadsetAce]

it's a two way street (the whole Bill & Brady thing). could Bill have won so MUCH without Brady and with Drew instead(or some other QB)? possibly. likely? probably not IMO. and the same is true for Brady having Bill. he found himself in the PERFECT situation.

however, i 100% believe we're going to find out the answer. Bill will be in NE longer than Brady is. so we're going to see what Bill does without Brady. no doubt in my mind that we will get to see that unfold. Bill is prepping for it by carbo loading on young defensive talent. he hit that hard in the last draft and will continue to do so. and it's because he knows what he's about to lose on the other side of the ball in the next couple years.