QB THREAD - 2x quarterbacky award winner: Lamar Jackson

[tvobach]

 

While there is no doubt in my mind that Alex Smith is currently a better QB than Colin Kaepernick....no problem admitting that.

However, I still wholeheartedly believe the switch was the correct move, and I don't for one second want Alex Smith back. I know he is having some success with KC, but I have no desire to want ANY quarterback who cannot put his team on his back and win games for them. In all honesty, I would rather have no quarterbacks at all, than a QB like Alex Smith. Being stuck in mediocrity is far worse than not having a QB. Alex is just good enough to trick feeble minded front offices that he is good enough to not search for a new QB.

I love KC's defense. WIth that defense and a better QB, they would be able to challenge for a SB spot in that weak *** AFC. But with Alex, I cant imagine they go very far. I don't want my team to be held back by QB play. Sans 2012 and 2013, I have been reading that book since Jeff Garcia was my team's QB.

I agree with this take.  I also don't think Alex Smith gets them as close as they were to a SB.  And if things fall just a little different...

I'm by no means the biggest Alex Smith fan in the world. I like him, think he is a top 12-15 QB in the league with all things considered. However, you're telling me you'd rather have Matt Cassell or Nick Foles or Jay Cutler at quarterback?

Also, look at Alex Smith's numbers in the playoffs and let me know if he is the reason his teams lost in the playoffs.

 

[100027]

 
I'm by no means the biggest Alex Smith fan in the world. I like him, think he is a top 12-15 QB in the league with all things considered. However, you're telling me you'd rather have Matt Cassell or Nick Foles or Jay Cutler at quarterback?

Also, look at Alex Smith's numbers in the playoffs and let me know if he is the reason his teams lost in the playoffs.

Wait what?  I would never say that re: bolded section.  Where did I imply that?

He's not the reason his team lost in the playoffs in those specific games.  But over the course of a season his style of play does lead to many disadvantages for a team, and those disadvantages can add up.  Personally I think it's sheer coincidence he's had his best games in those playoff settings, and they'd level out if he'd been there more often.

 

[finnns2003]

“I don’t worry about all of that,” Wilson said. “I think it comes down to winning games. Winning a lot of football games, I think that’s the ultimate measure of a quarterback so that’s the only thing I care about.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/12/16/mike-pettine-fails-to-honor-the-lou-holtz-code/

 

[tvobach]

 

 
I'm by no means the biggest Alex Smith fan in the world. I like him, think he is a top 12-15 QB in the league with all things considered. However, you're telling me you'd rather have Matt Cassell or Nick Foles or Jay Cutler at quarterback?

Also, look at Alex Smith's numbers in the playoffs and let me know if he is the reason his teams lost in the playoffs.

Wait what?  I would never say that re: bolded section.  Where did I imply that?

He's not the reason his team lost in the playoffs in those specific games.  But over the course of a season his style of play does lead to many disadvantages for a team, and those disadvantages can add up.  Personally I think it's sheer coincidence he's had his best games in those playoff settings, and they'd level out if he'd been there more often.

Was referring to someone else, not you, when talking about Smith.

When it comes to Alex Smith, I constantly ask Chiefs fans the question -- if not Alex Smith, who would you REALISTICALLY want to QB the Chiefs?

 

[100027]

 
Was referring to someone else, not you, when talking about Smith.

When it comes to Alex Smith, I constantly ask Chiefs fans the question -- if not Alex Smith, who would you REALISTICALLY want to QB the Chiefs?

Well that's the classic Alex Smith question, isn't it?  Too good to be easily replaced, not good enough to quiet all doubts as your franchise leader.  IMO the best thing would be to draft a QB that you feel great about and let him sit for a year or so.  It would have made sense for them to draft Teddy or Carr a couple years back.

@CP1708  I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Tony Romo and how he fits into your overall view of QBs.  Considering the strength of their line and the access to weapons like Dez and Witten.  I have great respect for Romo but I do also wonder how various QBs would benefit from the tools he has around him—even an Eli Manning or Joe Flacco type.

I see guys like Manning, Matt Ryan, or Flacco in the same group as players with incredible variation in performance over the years depending mainly on what's around them.

Ultimately my personal view is to recognize that hypotheticals are dangerous to take seriously, but it's still interesting to think about.

 

[dmxfury]

Alex Smith could have won a SB 15-20 years ago. Now m, even with an elite team around it takes a good, if not great QB. Just how the league is

 

[dmxfury]

Last 'average' QB to win was the Bucs SB?

 

[DeadsetAce]

Last 'average' QB to win was the Bucs SB?

apparently it was TB12 this past feb

 

[dmxfury]

Nah Gronk played so he was above average

 

[nepats617]

Nah Gronk played so he was above average

i see you dmx

 

[dmxfury]

Just restating what was said earlier

 

[tvobach]

 

 
Was referring to someone else, not you, when talking about Smith.

When it comes to Alex Smith, I constantly ask Chiefs fans the question -- if not Alex Smith, who would you REALISTICALLY want to QB the Chiefs?

Well that's the classic Alex Smith question, isn't it?  Too good to be easily replaced, not good enough to quiet all doubts as your franchise leader.  IMO the best thing would be to draft a QB that you feel great about and let him sit for a year or so.  It would have made sense for them to draft Teddy or Carr a couple years back.

Definitely would take Carr over Smith right now. Don't know about Teddy though.

 

[tvobach]

Last 'average' QB to win was the Bucs SB?

Joe Flacco.

Eli Manning slightly above average, in my opinion.

 

[mister friendly]

Joe Flacco has an elite deep ball and arm.

I think it makes him above average.

 

[dmxfury]

Joe Flacco.

Eli Manning slightly above average, in my opinion.

Man harsh

 

[CP1708]

100027, I will come for this when I can, today was Star Wars day so I was out of action. I will reply fully when I get a chance. Sorry for leavin you hangin.

 

[100027]

 
Joe Flacco.

Eli Manning slightly above average, in my opinion.

Joe Flacco might be average, but he played like a hall of famer during that run and certainly carried them there.

100027, I will come for this when I can, today was Star Wars day so I was out of action. I will reply fully when I get a chance. Sorry for leavin you hangin.

 no worries.  I'm flying today but thought about going to the first showing at 10AM before heading to the airport.  Ultimately decided that was a stupid idea.

They need movie theaters in airports.

 

[tvobach]

Joe Flacco has an elite deep ball and arm.

I think it makes him above average.

Fair point. Can't necessarily disagree.

 

[dland24]

Alex Smith was a punt return away from a Super Bowl tho.......

Yes, CP, that is the simple/on the surface arguments that Alex Smith fans want to bring up.  But if you dig deeper, you will see that Alex was just as big a part of us losing as Kyle Williams was.  Alex converted ONE third down all game long. He completed 40 something percent of his passes.  He was gunshy and didn't throw the ball to a wide open Delanie Walker who college level QBs would have hit for a touchdown.  He completed 1 pass to a wide receiver all game long.

Kyle WIlliams fumbled (which gave the Giants the lead), with almost the entire 4th quarter to play.  Alex proceeded to lead FIVE drives after that fumble, which he had 22 total passing yards and ZERO first downs converted.

Alex had his fingerprints ALL over this NFCCG loss.  And this is what I always bring up with Alex.  He is simply not good enough to overcome shortcomings in other aspects of the team.

 

 

While there is no doubt in my mind that Alex Smith is currently a better QB than Colin Kaepernick....no problem admitting that.

However, I still wholeheartedly believe the switch was the correct move, and I don't for one second want Alex Smith back. I know he is having some success with KC, but I have no desire to want ANY quarterback who cannot put his team on his back and win games for them. In all honesty, I would rather have no quarterbacks at all, than a QB like Alex Smith. Being stuck in mediocrity is far worse than not having a QB. Alex is just good enough to trick feeble minded front offices that he is good enough to not search for a new QB.

I love KC's defense. WIth that defense and a better QB, they would be able to challenge for a SB spot in that weak *** AFC. But with Alex, I cant imagine they go very far. I don't want my team to be held back by QB play. Sans 2012 and 2013, I have been reading that book since Jeff Garcia was my team's QB.

I agree with this take.  I also don't think Alex Smith gets them as close as they were to a SB.  And if things fall just a little different...

I'm by no means the biggest Alex Smith fan in the world. I like him, think he is a top 12-15 QB in the league with all things considered. However, you're telling me you'd rather have Matt Cassell or Nick Foles or Jay Cutler at quarterback?

Also, look at Alex Smith's numbers in the playoffs and let me know if he is the reason his teams lost in the playoffs.

Yes, I absolutely would rather have Jay Cutler, as I wholeheartedly believe he is the better QB.

But as of Nick Foles and Cassel go, I think you are missing the point about rather having a s*** quarterback than Alex.  Having a mediocre QB like Alex actually holds his team back from trying to improve the position.  If you had a terrible QB like Matt Cassel, the team's front office would make it a priority to search for that next franchise/elite QB.  When you have a QB like Alex, you will continue to be stuck in mediocrity (granted, that's better than being stuck being terrible, but at least if you were terrible you would be actively looking to improve that).  I have no interest in being stuck with an average QB.  I have always believed that if you don't have an elite QB, you should never stop searching for one.

 

[jpzx]

Anyone that wouldn't take Jay Cutler over Alex Smith ... And that's will all due respect and acknowledgment of flaws/limitations being given to both guys.

 

[CP1708]

 
Joe Flacco.

Eli Manning slightly above average, in my opinion.

Joe Flacco might be average, but he played like a hall of famer during that run and certainly carried them there.

100027, I will come for this when I can, today was Star Wars day so I was out of action. I will reply fully when I get a chance. Sorry for leavin you hangin.

 no worries.  I'm flying today but thought about going to the first showing at 10AM before heading to the airport.  Ultimately decided that was a stupid idea.

They need movie theaters in airports.

Romo is actually one of the main case studies to help me switch my own line of thinking about quarterback play.

For years on here, I was a part of the Brady v Manning debate. We had really good ones back in the day. But I know now that I over-simplified majorly in those discussions. Brady won, Peyton lost = Brady winner, Peyton loser. I chalk it up to being naïve and stupid.

Someone I speak with regularly off NT told me that PFF and ESPN QBR and stuff like that are just guessing games. They don’t know the line calls. They don’t know the blocking schemes. They don’t know the play designs, or what the coaches teach in practice. WR is open, QB should throw to him, but what if the OC spent the week teaching that this is the matchup they want to attack on this play? The LG missed his block, only just before the snap the Center tells him to block the other way, only that guy vacates. PFF doesn’t know that ****. QBR doesn’t account for that stuff. I assume they are better than nothing and they help give a small glimpse of what’s what, but they can’t get every detail right. Didn’t they give Rodgers a negative grade on his Monday night 5 TD game? I mean…..

Romo’s narrative is well known. He chokes. Romo turnovers, get em while they’re hot. Failure. Undrafted. Choke artist, etc. Some of it may be warranted, some of it clearly not. I credit Proshares for being one of the guys that got me to look harder at him. Shoes also would point out a lot things. Chester has that graph he posts about defensive help. Pro asked me last year why he wasn’t top 5 currently. At the time, I didn’t have a true answer. I still don’t, really. In fact, no one does. You’re all full of ****.

Last night on the radio I was listenin to some radio guy from ESPN, and he was doin his “Top 5 QB’s right now”. His list? Rodgers, Brady, Russ, Cam, and Luck. (he said Luck because of what he’s done, not cuz he injured)
Same guy, a month ago had Carson Palmer, Andy Dalton, Rodgers, Brady, and Ben.

A month ago NO ONE, NOOOOOOOOO ONEEEEEEEEEE said a word about Russ. Today he’s “top 5”.


People pick and choose each day/week like that’s their final answer. A week later someone goes nuts, and they wipe the dry erase board clean and start over.

Start the year, Peyton was Elite, and Cam was terrible comin off a down year. Today Cam is elite and Peyton is terrible. Flacco’s elite, and now he’s not. Rivers was leading the league in passing a month ago, now he sucks.

Ride the wave folks. Away you go.


I don’t buy into this way of thinking. Lames will follow behind me typing as quick as they can that I’m backing “my guy” even tho they can’t figure out which ones they want to stick to my name. First it’s Luck, then it’s Tannehill, pretty soon it will be Ben. (who might be my favorite QB right now) They call me a Russ hater, even tho I’m a Russ realist. Like I said, and will continue, NO ONE, said a ************* word about Russ the first TEN WEEKS of the NFL season. And in the 11th, he went off, and LOST. So going into Week 12 of the NFL season, no one was saying a peep about this supposed Top 5 elite QB.

Bottom line is, people judge the QB week to week, even play to play. No big picture is ever viewed.

Romo is a loser. Russ is a winner.

They faced the same defense a week apart last year.

Romo at GB. Russ at home.

Romo was 15-19 with 2 TD’s and a 143 rating. He was sacked 4 times. And as we all know, one of his “incompletions” may very well have been a long completion to the one yard line. *shrugs*
Russ was 14 of 29 with 1 TD and 4 INT’s. A rating of 44. He was sacked 5 times.

Romo lost
Russ won

Romo played a FAR better game. Not even arguable. Not even close.

Yet Romo gets blame for a playoff loss, and Russ gets credit for a playoff win.

No one blames DeMarco Murray, or Jason Witten, or Garrett, etc.
No one credits Lynch, or Sherman, or Pete Carroll.

No, just the QB. Romo lost, Russ won.

Fact is, no one, including myself, knows what Garrett did to prepare Romo for the game. Or what the Dallas D coordinator did. Or what Mike McCarthy planned. Or how Murray was feeling. Or if the bye week helped GB and hurt Dallas.
Or how the flight to Seattle affected GB. Or the crowd noise. Or the lack of preparation by the Safety for sliding by himself instead of continuing the play and gaining yards/burning more time. Or how much Pete Carroll motivated his players after the 4th INT.

We don’t know. No of us. We can guess. We can gleam answers. We can rewatch plays, or even the whole game. We still won’t know playcalls, or player responsibilities. We’re all just guessing.

Some guess by checking the W/L column. Oh, I did my homework, QB A won, so he’s a winner, QB B lost, he’s a loser. The names don’t even matter. Russ, Romo, Luck, Rodgers, Brady, none of it matters what their names are. QB 1-32 could be the names. Whoever has the most wins will be the one people respect and rally around.

Aaron Rodgers first ever playoff game he threw for 423 yards, 4 TD’s, and ran for another. His rating was 121.4 He had that game, on the road. He lost. He has a 6-5 career playoff record. 4 of those wins came in one season. His defense last year gave up a TD to a punter, a hail mary 2 point conversion, and 2 TD’s in 3 minutes. But another “L” for Rodgers in the playoffs.

Tom Brady “winner”. One yard away from “loser” of 3 straight Super Bowls.
Tom Brady faces “crappy, garbage, Giants defense” Throws ball directly into Safeties hands, game over. Safety drops it. Brady is a winner, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Eli. Eli won that game. Brady lost it. Only, that’s not what happened.

Carson Palmer Raider, loser.
Carson Palmer Cardinal, winner.

Same guy. Different staff and teammates.

So I took the long way to say, Romo has been a very good QB over the years. He does somehow manage to come up with some strange late game mistakes. It has hurt his team at times. But he was rock solid last year, and they were dynamic, with a crappy defense. But they did their jobs. This year they are 3-0 when he starts. They’re like 1-9 when he doesn’t. Sometimes he loses with one of those late game turnovers because his team didn’t do its job and forced him to keep throwing the ball late, when he could have gotten the win just handing it off with a lead. Defense fails, and suddenly it’s on the QB to win, and when an obvious passing down results in a sack/fumble, or INT, or pass break up turnover on downs, blame goes to the QB. Not the guy who gave up the sack. Or maybe the guy who ran the wrong route. Or the penalty that might have put them at 4th and long, etc.

The week before that Packer/Dallas game. Matt Stafford was playin great, and had the game put away. He threw to his open guy, and that guy was damn near tackled. No flag. Stafford was a loser, and Romo a winner.

For just that one week.


Note, none of this is me bashing a single QB I have listed. Rodgers, Luck, Brady, Russ, Ryan, Romo, Rivers, Ben, Eli, Flacco, Cam, Dalton, Palmer, or QB 1-32. They’re just examples of things that get said or hyped or believed from one week to the next.

Kurt Warner was one FG and 2 tippy toes from bein 3-0 in the Super Bowl, or he was 1 yard away from bein 0-3 possibly.
Jim Kelly 0-4 in Super Bowls. Even tho he needed just one FG in perfect conditions to win his first.
Joe Montana is throwin the ball away, Dwight Clark comes out of nowhere to grab it. Joe = winner.

See DLand, saying that Alex Smith was a big reason, main reason, part of the reason (???) the 9ers lost to the Giants. Kyle Williams fumbled twice on punt returns, didn’t he? Or am I misremembering? Either way, the 9ers didn’t win, so it’s on Alex Smith, every other 49 on the roster + coaching staff is in the clear. QB takes the L. OLine, RB, WR’s, TE’s, DLine, LBers, CB’s, Safeties, Special Teams, all units absolved. QB = loser.

Or winner.

Depending on what Kicker makes his last second FG. Or which kicker misses his last second FG. Or who gains one yard. Or what undrafted CB makes an INT. Or what no name WR can catch passes with his helmet even while being pulled apart by a 235 pound man.

Romo to me is a very good QB. Top 1, Top 3, Top 5, Top 10, Top 22, Top 30, what does it matter? It’ll change next week aroun’ here anyway.

All this said, no one will care. No one will change their mind. 4 days from now I’ll read about QBWINZ and so and so sucks cuz their team gave up 30+ but they only scored 10 themselves, blah blah blah. I just wanted to be sure I answered your question as best I could even tho it will provide them fodder to drool over.

 

[DeadsetAce]

wow. repped.

 

[T0INE]

Goodness.

And I read all of that too.

Good stuff CP.

 

[a55a5in11]

No way I'm reading all that
Cliff notes b

 

[DeadsetAce]

No way I'm reading all that
Cliff notes b

don't be a prisoner of the moment. don't just look at wins/losses.