So How Tough is Law School Really?

[airmaxpenny1]

My pops is a lawyer, a very successfull one at that and he already told me its not worth it going to law school.  There are so many really intelligent, capable lawyers out there who can't even find work.
Plus, if you think law school is bad, life as a young lawyer is even worse especially if you want to be successfull and work at a big firm.  People work 7 days a week 12 hours plus, the grind is no joke.

 

[denni5themenace]

I used to work as a file clerk in a law office. we had a few offices we sublet to independent lawyers not associated with my firm. I got real cool with a few of them and they told me from their experience they wouldn't get into law if they could do it again. as said in this thread already, the job market sucks, you don't make that much money, and you end up with so much debt.

 

[juju]

if you're "thinking" about law school cause graduation from undergrad is a month away, don't go and mess up my profession even further.

i've wanted this since i was in the 6th grade and im 4 weeks out from graduating and starting my bar prep.

can you get into law school with any degree? yes BUT just cause you had a 4.0 in math or history doesn't mean you can think analytically.

i'm passionate about this not only because people are treating my dream like a back up plan or real world pause button, but i'm met with

these types personally all the time. i got one friend who graduated with a chemical engineering degree from UF and was employed in L.A. getting

money but got bored. Now shes going to law school despite never stating/showing ANY interest in the 10+ years i've known her.

another with "future esquire" on her facebook and she literally hasn't even graduated from undergrad.

another who is taking paralegal classes so "he can get a better grip on the LSAT", that statement tells me he has done NO research into the decision he

is making because the LSAT has NOTHING to do with the law so paralegal classes are a complete waste of time and money.


Going to law school for money or to avoid life is stupid. 1) you take away potential jobs from people who really want to practice and drive down earning potential for those of us in it for the long

haul. 2) to that point, the law practice is NOTHING i mean NOTHING like you see on television. One example is that in the real world an attorney cannot leave the lectern. So EVERY movie/show you

ever saw with an attorney walking around the court room lied to you. EVERY movie you've seen the attorney addressing the jury directly and saying "put yourself in their shoes" lied to you.

the real world of law is potentially being sent before the bar because you put your jacket in the same closet you store attorney property or being sued because the client doesnt like the settlement

THEY accepted after the fact and some relatives telling them "they could have gotten more."


If you want to practice law and truly have an interest in the law and are willing to spend hours upon hours for the rest of your life (not just law school) reading complicated stuff and worrying

deadlines and clients then by all means DO IT.

If you just in it for money or prestige or to avoid life, find a better way. you'll just be in debt, miserable and a crappy lawyer which can really affect other peoples lives, this isn't a game, day in and

day out attorneys decision/actions weight heavily on individuals lives and societies in general.

 

[dacomeup]

Originally Posted by KickHead23

Also in response to all of this over-saturation talk, this may be true but the admissions are declining steadily. Test takers/admissions have dropped 25% in the past YEAR. This may seem like a bad sign to most but for me that means less competition in my graduating class.

Yup. If you can't get into a Top 20 school though I wouldn't even bother going unless you can get a school in your region to give you a lot of money. Law is like most fields where it's not always what you know it's who you know.

A lot of good advice from people in here but some are way off base IMO.

Plus, if you think law school is bad, life as a young lawyer is even worse especially if you want to be successfull and work at a big firm. People work 7 days a week 12 hours plus, the grind is no joke.



And this is definitely true.

 

[firmeporvida]

Originally Posted by HAM CITY

I get the feeling that if you're one of those guys who got through undergrad by opening your text once the night before midterms and once again right before finals, it's probably not for you.

Or else you wouldn't be asking this question..it's hard!

 

[stay lurkin]

Originally Posted by rashi

I watched my wife go through 3 years of Law School. Three years of hell.

Did it pay off?

 

[MetalMario]

well Reese witherspoon made it easy and fashionable so its should be good man. there's hot chicks and that's what matter most

 

[freelythinkingmind]

isnt there a way to just take the bar in some states??? Why cant someone read BAR taking books and knock it out? I mean really, there is professional test takers out there.. they can do this! Anyone got more info? Id rather study for a year , take CALI's pre - bar test.. then go on to the actual bar there... I read there was a ton of people who have passed it there with a high school diploma...

 

[rashi]

Originally Posted by Stay Lurkin

Originally Posted by rashi

I watched my wife go through 3 years of Law School. Three years of hell.

Did it pay off?

She's currently an associate at a Law firm doing criminal defense, civil rights, and constitutional law. She makes roughly 130k. On top of it, she works in a male dominated arena, so she deals with a very different dynamic.

You have to enjoy what you do, and she does.

 

[realrubirosa]

What JuJu said is pretty on point. Lots of people get in for the wrong reasons and find themselves stuck or complaining about the field and the job market of such... There's a memoir, Unbillable Hours, about a guy who went to law school because he didn't want to work yet after college, got in at a big firm because he did well in school, but hated it. Conversely, that same story applies to a guy at the firm I work at but he ended up loving law school and is now one of the most respected attorneys in the country and gets lifetime achievement awards from all sorts of law committees.

 

[sneaker champ]

its not too bad just requires hard work

 

[keif sweat]

If you just want to learn to analyze the law and be a good lawyer, its not very hard at all IMO. If you want to graduate at the top of your class and have your pick of employment from Big Law to clerking at the highest levels, then it can be VERY hard. You have to love it (or love working VERY HARD) though, which is hard to tell until you've been in it for a while. I went for a year and a half; loved the focus it put on breaking things down based on past AND foreseeable occurrences, hated just about everything else. Don't regret going though...I learned some invaluable lessons and skills and very little of it was gleaned from a textbook.

 

[Shanegerous]

Tons of reading. 

 

[dwyanewadeog]

Originally Posted by DT43

Originally Posted by DwyaneWadeOG

Originally Posted by Toy Collector123

Don't believe. Go to all Big Firm websites and look for opportunities for new graduates. Don't worry, I'll wait.

i hope you are aware that law school "employment" stats are a well-known scam, right? there was a piece about it in the NY Times. the majority of graduates end up with ~12 month temp jobs, but law schools will count all those temp jobs as being "employed" even though the students end up unemployed and looking for work 12 months later.

Yes I am aware that the stats are massaged and I believe you may be referring to this article. But those are for the umbrella category of % employed after graduation. The stats that I posted are people who are working in law firms (which have also been massaged!). Not those who are counted as employed because the University employs them or because they are working at starbucks.
Also realize that I was refuting ToyCollector's claim that only the top 10 students from Yale Harvard and Stanford are getting big law jobs that pay 160k. 

 

[raptors29]

While we're on the subject of post-undergrad %$+%, how hard is PT school?

Please Respond

 

[keif sweat]

Originally Posted by DwyaneWadeOG

Originally Posted by DT43

Originally Posted by DwyaneWadeOG

i hope you are aware that law school "employment" stats are a well-known scam, right? there was a piece about it in the NY Times. the majority of graduates end up with ~12 month temp jobs, but law schools will count all those temp jobs as being "employed" even though the students end up unemployed and looking for work 12 months later.

Yes I am aware that the stats are massaged and I believe you may be referring to this article. But those are for the umbrella category of % employed after graduation. The stats that I posted are people who are working in law firms (which have also been massaged!). Not those who are counted as employed because the University employs them or because they are working at starbucks.
Also realize that I was refuting ToyCollector's claim that only the top 10 students from Yale Harvard and Stanford are getting big law jobs that pay 160k. 

Eh...I wouldn't say "just" them but its really only T5 students steadily getting 160 these days. I'd imagine average starting salary for Big Law is closer to 120-130K after the restructuring.

 

[ricky409]

Originally Posted by paliplaya2010

my sister goes to smu. she literally studies all day. she wakes up early and studies and after class she studies. shes lost like 20 pounds this year from the stress. in undergrad she was a genius. i law school shes average. shes jjust really wants to do it.

not trying to get fresh on your sister, famb... i respect NT boundaries...
but i'm moving to Dallas for school and dont know ANYONE out there...

any way you could put me in contact with ya sis?

i know she got some law school friends that need some... relief of stress...

 

[hankmoody]

T5? Never heard of that one. T3, T6 and T14 I have.

People are being a little too dramatic in here. If you get into a T14, you're fine. You probably won't be clerking on the SCOTUS but you'll be just fine for big law.
Many of the employment problems discussed in this thread don't stem from those schools. Is it not as rosy as it once was? Of course. But T14 students have the good kinds of problems.

 

[keif sweat]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

T5? Never heard of that one. T3, T6 and T14 I have.

People are being a little too dramatic in here. If you get into a T14, you're fine. You probably won't be clerking on the SCOTUS but you'll be just fine for big law.
Many of the employment problems discussed in this thread don't stem from those schools. Is it not as rosy as it once was? Of course. But T14 students have the good kinds of problems.

Whats the good kind of problems? I personally know bottom half T14 grads who still haven't secured decent employment for years. And you also have to figure that a T14 degree can cost you close to 200K, sometimes even more. So its not like you can work  just any legal job. You NEED to be seeing paper, them loan payments are no joke 

I'm not trying to sway anyone from doing it, just be realistic about your goals and expectations of your life as a lawyer.

 

[hankmoody]

100% employment is your criteria for a good law school? Alright then. 

Yale isn't on there but that's due to clerkships and non-profit work I presume (GULC too) . I'll take a 40% chance at big law in the worst job market ever for lawyers. Again, people are being a little too dramatic in here when bringing up T14. 

 

[atlsfinest]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

100% employment is your criteria for a good law school? Alright then. 

Yale isn't on there but that's due to clerkships and non-profit work I presume (GULC too) . I'll take a 40% chance at big law in the worst job market ever for lawyers. Again, people are being a little too dramatic in here when bringing up T14. 

generally speaking I agree with you. If you're top half at a t14 you should be in good shape. Gotta keep in mind that the vast majority of law school applicants aren't gonna sniff the t-14 though. IMO there are just too many law schools. If I had my way I'd only have the top 50-75 and then a state flagship in each state. No reason for there to be over 200 law schools with expanding classes every year.

 

[lawless2387]

As a 3L who will be graduating in a month and has no plans of practicing law at this point in life, I can tell you that law school can have its benefits if you do not want to practice. For example, I started a digital media agency during my 2L and law school provided me with the funding to help start my company. Now I also went to school in my home area and lived at home for two years to stack bread, but the information I learned during 1L was the most integral part of my legal education. To be honest, I feel that I could have left after my first year and made alot of money by now, but having ESQ by your name as a 25 year old helps boost your credentials as a business owner. I also can handle most legal work (i.e. drafting contracts, incorporating documents, operating agreements), although I still plan on retaining legal counsel if involved in litigation. I will be studying for the California bar this summer though, but only because I am a student rep for a bar prep course and my course is completely free (usually costs around $4,000). Going into law school, I thought I would be doing the big law thing, but after talking with associates and having a brother work at Simpson, Thatcher, Bartlett as a paralegal, I knew that the firm life was not for me. Public interest work is usually a better quality of life but the money isn't enough for my lifestyle choices. So entrepreneurship was the route for me. Hope this helps.

 

[atlsfinest]

Originally Posted by lawless2387

As a 3L who will be graduating in a month and has no plans of practicing law at this point in life, I can tell you that law school can have its benefits if you do not want to practice. For example, I started a digital media agency during my 2L and law school provided me with the funding to help start my company. Now I also went to school in my home area and lived at home for two years to stack bread, but the information I learned during 1L was the most integral part of my legal education. To be honest, I feel that I could have left after my first year and made alot of money by now, but having ESQ by your name as a 25 year old helps boost your credentials as a business owner. I also can handle most legal work (i.e. drafting contracts, incorporating documents, operating agreements), although I still plan on retaining legal counsel if involved in litigation. I will be studying for the California bar this summer though, but only because I am a student rep for a bar prep course and my course is completely free (usually costs around $4,000). Going into law school, I thought I would be doing the big law thing, but after talking with associates and having a brother work at Simpson, Thatcher, Bartlett as a paralegal, I knew that the firm life was not for me. Public interest work is usually a better quality of life but the money isn't enough for my lifestyle choices. So entrepreneurship was the route for me. Hope this helps.

don't be that guy who actually puts ESQ by their name, it's one of the douchier things you can do. props to you though

 

[ricky409]

Originally Posted by ATLsFinest

Originally Posted by lawless2387

As a 3L who will be graduating in a month and has no plans of practicing law at this point in life, I can tell you that law school can have its benefits if you do not want to practice. For example, I started a digital media agency during my 2L and law school provided me with the funding to help start my company. Now I also went to school in my home area and lived at home for two years to stack bread, but the information I learned during 1L was the most integral part of my legal education. To be honest, I feel that I could have left after my first year and made alot of money by now, but having ESQ by your name as a 25 year old helps boost your credentials as a business owner. I also can handle most legal work (i.e. drafting contracts, incorporating documents, operating agreements), although I still plan on retaining legal counsel if involved in litigation. I will be studying for the California bar this summer though, but only because I am a student rep for a bar prep course and my course is completely free (usually costs around $4,000). Going into law school, I thought I would be doing the big law thing, but after talking with associates and having a brother work at Simpson, Thatcher, Bartlett as a paralegal, I knew that the firm life was not for me. Public interest work is usually a better quality of life but the money isn't enough for my lifestyle choices. So entrepreneurship was the route for me. Hope this helps.

don't be that guy who actually puts ESQ by their name, it's one of the douchier things you can do. props to you though

Lulz.. let that man sautee... that's like saying "don't put a very hard accomplishment infront of your name cuz people will think you're bragging. As a matter of fact, don't even put Dr after you get your PhD "

 

[keif sweat]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

100% employment is your criteria for a good law school? Alright then. 

Yale isn't on there but that's due to clerkships and non-profit work I presume (GULC too) . I'll take a 40% chance at big law in the worst job market ever for lawyers. Again, people are being a little too dramatic in here when bringing up T14. 

Whatever man I'm not bout to argue with you. I've been thru the process and I have numbers of friends in those same schools you posted. Lots of jobs in the NLJ250 are sweatshops; theres a few "lifestyle" firms sprinkled here and there but for the most part corporate law is !@$% unless you go in-house. The point I'm trying to make is be sure to look beyond the numbers when applying to law school (or any school for that matter), as there is an actual profession I'd imagine you want to like when you finish.