(Spoilers) ASOIAF Books Discussion (All Books Read Edition) (Spoilers)

[harlemtothebronx]

I get why they did it, though.

Visually they knocked it out of the park. They wanted to blow everyone away with the choreography, and they did. Dude is amazing with those swords.

Did some knights regularly go into battle with two swords?

 

[nako xl]

Haha I actually semi-researched this question in High School.

It wasn't practical, but dual wielding swords, back then, was a style some european and asian swordsmen used. Vikings did it as well. Whether or not western European knights did it during feudalism is a debate. There's accounts of who killed who, but imagine the movie Braveheart, once all hell breaks loose, who knows who's doing what. So there arent really paintings of dude twirling swords like Dayne.

In total war combat I imagine people would do whatever they had to do, use rocks, pick up double swords, do whatever. But back then medieval european knights were traditionally trained with a sword/lance/spear/axe/mace and a shield of varying sizes depending what type of knight/infantry man they were and the shield in itself could be used as a weapon, so it'd be uncommon for someone to go in with two swords alone. Knights wore all that chainmail to protect themselves, I doubt most would give up a giant piece of wood/metal that would add to that protection.

But i guess, that's why it's all the more bad *** when someone did.

But there's evidence of samurais, vikings, renaissance era swordsmen, gladiators, etc. dual wielding weapons.

 

[District of Columbia]

Wars back in those days were Brutal :x

Would rather get blown up by an IED then to get my chest caved in by a war hammer and die slowly

 

[fantastic4our]

I was thinking that Ice at that time might still be in Kings Landing.

Rickard (Ned's Dad) probably took it with him when he went to Kings Landing with Brandon to get back Lyanna.

I enjoyed the two swords, but I think it was mainly to show how much of a badass Ser Arthur was, since he's generally agreed upon as THE best knight of that era.

Doubt the show makes the connection between the three-eyed crow/raven and Brynden Rivers.

I hope they do, especially considering how much screen time Maester Aemon got. Maybe a quick look at the Wall with young Aemon and Bloodraven

Definitely think that they trying to pull one on Ramsay. Umber refused to pledge allegiance to him.

Question: Did Rob legitimize Jon as the heir to Winterfell in the show? If he did then...

Doesn't he argue with Cat in the show about making Jon his heir?

 

[tdogg2k]

Yall gotta stop babying show watchers. Its not hard to explain dayne especially since its not like we got more than a handful of pages about him anyway. Only 3 pieces of information about dayne we need to know out of the 5 we got.
In order (arguably)
1. Greatest swordsman/knight in that era.
2. Dawn was a famous milky white GREAT sword
3. He puts work in on neds squad
(Other 2)
4. Ashrya beother
5. Friends with rhaegar but served his KING to the end.

It wouldnt not have been hard to throw in 1 extra line. " thats Dawn sword of the morning"

The actor they chose is a real life swordsman so im sure he couldve shown us some skill with a bigger sword.

Again not saying i didnt like the scene. Great scene. But just what would please the book readers would please the show watchers also and not hard to get stuff just a tad more accurate

 

[harlemtothebronx]

 
Haha I actually semi-researched this question in High School.

It wasn't practical, but dual wielding swords, back then, was a style some european and asian swordsmen used. Vikings did it as well. Whether or not western European knights did it during feudalism is a debate. There's accounts of who killed who, but imagine the movie Braveheart, once all hell breaks loose, who knows who's doing what. So there arent really paintings of dude twirling swords like Dayne.

In total war combat I imagine people would do whatever they had to do, use rocks, pick up double swords, do whatever. But back then medieval european knights were traditionally trained with a sword/lance/spear/axe/mace and a shield of varying sizes depending what type of knight/infantry man they were and the shield in itself could be used as a weapon, so it'd be uncommon for someone to go in with two swords alone. Knights wore all that chainmail to protect themselves, I doubt most would give up a giant piece of wood/metal that would add to that protection.

But i guess, that's why it's all the more bad *** when someone did.

But there's evidence of samurais, vikings, renaissance era swordsmen, gladiators, etc. dual wielding weapons.

Excellent post. Wish I could double rep.

I gotta research this topic further. Pretty fascinating.

 

[Barbados Slim]

I was thinking that Ice at that time might still be in Kings Landing.

Rickard (Ned's Dad) probably took it with him when he went to Kings Landing with Brandon to get back Lyanna.

I enjoyed the two swords, but I think it was mainly to show how much of a badass Ser Arthur was, since he's generally agreed upon as THE best knight of that era.
I hope they do, especially considering how much screen time Maester Aemon got. Maybe a quick look at the Wall with young Aemon and Bloodraven
Doesn't he argue with Cat in the show about making Jon his heir?

I could be wrong but I think the 3 eyed raven said he was in the tree for a thousand years on the show, so I don't think they will make the Bloodraven connection unless they decide to make Bloodraven exist a thousand years prior. 

 

[tdogg2k]

Daggers, Sais, Tonfas, nunchucks only dual wielding that makes sense in my eyes. unless a samurai is dangerous with the swords, although they historically had the Katana then the reg shorter sword. (I forget the official name)

 

[shogun]

Gannicus in spartacus was a boss with 2 swords. Sometimes you gotta show how better you are than everyone else.

 

[hybridsoldier23]

It was said multiple times throughout the books that Dayne was such a good swordsman he could wield with both hands. I believe Jaime even says Dayne could have beat him with his off hand and it wouldn't be a contest. The basis was there and given they eliminated dawn (as with a whole bunch of magical stuff like the horn of winter, the dragonbinder, and Mel's other glamours) I thought the fight was well done and made sense.

 

[nako xl]

Daggers, Sais, Tonfas, nunchucks only dual wielding that makes sense in my eyes. unless a samurai is dangerous with the swords, although they historically had the Katana then the reg shorter sword. (I forget the official name)

Miyamoto Musashi literally wrote a book back in 1584 about using two swords and explained how it was better for balance and the logical technique as opposed to using a sole sword.

The word you'e looking for, for the shorter sword, is wakizashi. But even then, Miyamoto said you should get nice with two katanas before you try 1 katana with 1 shorter sword:

"If you hold a sword with both hands, it is difficult to wield it freely to left and right, so my method is to carry the sword in one hand... When you become used to wielding the long sword, you will gain the power of the Way and wield the sword well."

"You can win with a long weapon, and yet you can also win with a short weapon. In short, the Way of the Ichi school is the spirit of winning, whatever the weapon and whatever its size."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi#Ni-Ten_Ichi_Ryu

 

[nako xl]

And to the people saying they eliminated Dawn... how? They call Dayne the Sword of the Morning and feature the sword prominently in all the shots. It's in front of Dayne the entire time he's talking:

 

Maybe they wont do anything magical with it (though neither have the books) and maybe it just hasn't been done yet. But aside from a few pages of mention of Dayne in the first book (i think?) how have they not done it justice so far? Plus Ned grabbed it ran up the tower steps. It seems like a pretty accurate portrayal of it's role so far.

 

[gbdaman]

And to the people saying they eliminated Dawn... how? They call Dayne the Sword of the Morning and feature the sword prominently in all the shots. It's in front of Dayne the entire time he's talking:

 

Maybe they wont do anything magical with it (though neither have the books) and maybe it just hasn't been done yet. But aside from a few pages of mention of Dayne in the first book (i think?) how have they not done it justice so far? Plus Ned grabbed it ran up the tower steps. It seems like a pretty accurate portrayal of it's role so far.

My only issue is the way they depicted Dawn. Its a greatsword that sword they used in show wasnt. They should have atleast made it the milk color. All in all the point that this was the illest swordsman in all of Westeros was clear

 

[nako xl]

Interesting things I learned trolling Reddit/ASOIAF pods this week:

1. Cersei, Jamie, and Tyrion are Baratheon descendants

2. Once legitimized, Jon as the eldest son of the King/eldest male heir has greater succession rights than Dany. Dany = Stannis, Jon = Tommen.

 

[tdogg2k]

the more i watch the scene (4th time now) the more I watch in scrutiny. ned killing Hightower like that (or whent, but I think the actor said he was suppose to be hightower) like Hightower was soft (which he wasn't)
the 2 swords thing. (again awesome sword fighting display) just wrether the sword been a bit more accurate and he just been a beast with that.
It was 7 against 3 (originally) so him fighting 5 people was a bit OD , showed his skill which again was awesome.. but taking out 5 lords. and Ned being the best swordsman out of them.....
It's a show I know i know. show is not solely for book readers. i know i know but just my thoughts on it.

as much as i've separated the 2 entities in my head the show is still depicting book info that I can not let go yet.



@NAKO
I think a lot of houses now have some type of Targ/Baratheon/Frey/ Lannister in them..

As far as Jon being legitimatized (which no one in our current 7 kingdoms would do anyway)
How does he have more right than Dany... if you believe Rhaegar is Jons father?

Dany is still the Heir due to being Aery's Daughter. all she would have to do is take a husband to secure it but she is still legit heir over Jon.

I think it wasn't until a bit after the first few Targ kings and queens did they make the rule that men will be over women. but only if they have the same blood. and most times they would just have to marry their younger brothers.


Assuming I read the history book right.

 

[Barbados Slim]

the more i watch the scene (4th time now) the more I watch in scrutiny. ned killing Hightower like that (or whent, but I think the actor said he was suppose to be hightower) like Hightower was soft (which he wasn't)
the 2 swords thing. (again awesome sword fighting display) just wrether the sword been a bit more accurate and he just been a beast with that.
It was 7 against 3 (originally) so him fighting 5 people was a bit OD , showed his skill which again was awesome.. but taking out 5 lords. and Ned being the best swordsman out of them.....
It's a show I know i know. show is not solely for book readers. i know i know but just my thoughts on it.

as much as i've separated the 2 entities in my head the show is still depicting book info that I can not let go yet.



@NAKO
I think a lot of houses now have some type of Targ/Baratheon/Frey/ Lannister in them..

As far as Jon being legitimatized (which no one in our current 7 kingdoms would do anyway)
How does he have more right than Dany... if you believe Rhaegar is Jons father?

Dany is still the Heir due to being Aery's Daughter. all she would have to do is take a husband to secure it but she is still legit heir over Jon.

I think it wasn't until a bit after the first few Targ kings and queens did they make the rule that men will be over women. but only if they have the same blood. and most times they would just have to marry their younger brothers.


Assuming I read the history book right.

the line of sussesion gets a little weird with a legitmized Jon in it but if I understand it Rhagaer was next in line followed by his son Aegon. I think which is why in the book he has a better claime than Danny(assuming he's really Aegon). Jon would be next. I think it goes King -> first son-> his son's. As long as there's son's in the equation siblings of the eldest fall behind. The confusing part is what happens to the line when the eldest son dies before the father?

 

[nako xl]

In European royalty the eldest child of the king's eldest heir has succession claims before siblings of the first heir, especially female siblings.

It's why Prince William would be next in line after Prince Charles. Not any of Charles's siblings.

Intestacy rights in American judisprudence (in most states) works in similar ways. Your kids are in line to inherit before your brothers or sisters. Dany's rights only vest once all of Rhaegar's kids are gone.

 

[shogun]

Yeah, sucks to be the younger siblings. Your older siblings' kids are ahead of you usually.

 

[tdogg2k]

So you're right, the male comes before the female mainly because of the Dance with Dragons. (which was a fight about the women wanting sucession and their kids. ) so the rule was put in to place women can only have the right if no males are left.
BUT...................
Rhaegar would have had to been married to Lyanna.
if jon is still technically a bastard, he doesn't have more claim than dany.

problem is, right now the Baratheons are the rightful family to the throne. so targs can only get it again through conquest, (which a lot of the more powerful families don't want right now)

on top of the fact no one in power will and can legitmaize jon other than the current king

 

[gbdaman]

So you're right, the male comes before the female mainly because of the Dance with Dragons. (which was a fight about the women wanting sucession and their kids. ) so the rule was put in to place women can only have the right if no males are left.
BUT...................
Rhaegar would have had to been married to Lyanna.
if jon is still technically a bastard, he doesn't have more claim than dany.

problem is, right now the Baratheons are the rightful family to the throne. so targs can only get it again through conquest, (which a lot of the more powerful families don't want right now)

on top of the fact no one in power will and can legitmaize jon other than the current king

Until we know what happened at the tower of joy we wont really know what Jons status is or if Rhaegar married Lyanna. What we do know is that all of Cersei's children will die so who will takeover after he dies? Margery and the Tyrells? Howland Reed is the key. There is a theory that he is the high sparrow. Now if the high Sparrow declares Jon to be the natural born son of Rhaegar and Lyanna the people will accept it. Regardless when them dragons touchdown in Westeros the whole game will change.

 

[shogun]

Rhaegar was already married. Never heard of any divorces in Westeros.

 

[slighted]

Wait, do the other houses know that Dany is still alive and out there with her dragons?

 

[tdogg2k]

They know the rumor

 

[nako xl]

They know the rumor

Nah they know word. There have been a few characters who referenced her. And Big Rob wasn't exactly discrete about trying to get her killed.

And Tdogg sounds like your whole post was you just agreeing with my post but not wanting to so you took another "no one will legitimize Jon" shot

 

[gbdaman]

Rhaegar was already married. Never heard of any divorces in Westeros.

It was normal for Targaryens to have 2 wives i.e. Aegon the Conqueror. Wasnt as prevalent in the later years of their dynasty but not unheard of.