- Feb 5, 2013
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The Official NBA Season Thread: NBA Cup Night
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by pmatic,
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Mister Meaner
formerly super producer j
- Mar 24, 2007
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Harden & his foul baiting ******** will never die.
- Feb 23, 2010
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Feb. 5: Nets trading star guard Kyrie Irving to Mavericks
Nets get:Dorian Finney-Smith
Spencer Dinwiddie
2029 first-round pick
2027 & 2029 second-round picks
Mavericks get:
Kyrie Irving
Markieff Morris
Brooklyn Nets: B+
The 48-hour turnaround from Irving's trade request being reported to a trade being consummated seems to reflect a couple of key things from the Nets: They were ready to move on from Irving and they found the kind of market they wanted.
A lot of the analysis in the immediate aftermath of Irving's request suggested Brooklyn should call his bluff, as happened last summer when he agitated for a sign-and-trade before exercising his player option to remain with the Nets. Maybe that would have happened if the market was softer, but I think Brooklyn was right to take seriously Irving's reported threat to sit out if not traded. ESPN's Bobby Marks pointed out that actually holding out would have jeopardized Irving's ability to become a free agent, but he could have said he was unable to play because of injury.
In the best-case scenario, keeping Irving past the trade deadline would merely have been kicking the can down the road. Since Irving's return following a team suspension for his repeated failure to "unequivocally say he has no antisemitic beliefs" (and a public apology), things had gone as well as possible on the court. That still resulted in Irving's midseason trade request.
The other difference from last summer is more teams could realistically deal for Irving. Dallas was in that group. Well into the luxury tax, the Mavericks would have had a difficult time consummating a legal sign-and-trade for Irving. Now, Dallas could offer a point guard (Dinwiddie) in addition to a valuable role player (Finney-Smith) and a first-round pick. By contrast, for a trade with the Los Angeles Lakers to yield Irving's replacement, it would have surely required at least one more team (and maybe two, depending on that team's willingness to take back Russell Westbrook's contract).
The first key to this trade for the Nets is what percentage of Irving's production Dinwiddie can replace at a lower salary and with less uncertainty. Quietly, Dinwiddie has had a strong season opposite Doncic, rebuilding his value by hitting a career-high 40.5% of his 3-point attempts.
By swapping Dinwiddie for Irving, Brooklyn is taking a step back in terms of shot creation. When placed in the role of lead playmaker, Dinwiddie has been more of a volume scorer. We saw that with the Nets in 2019-20, when they played most of the season without Durant and Irving. Dinwiddie averaged 22.2 PPG and 7.3 APG in the 44 games Irving missed, but his .470 effective field goal percentage in those games (treating 3s as 1.5 field goals to reflect their added value) was lower than any full season of his career.
With Dinwiddie at point guard, Brooklyn will become even more dependent on Durant for late-game scoring. But Dinwiddie can at least add a scoring punch when Durant is on the bench, a need the Nets had to fill. Brooklyn lineups with neither Durant nor Irving had ranked in the second percentile in terms of offensive rating, per Cleaning the Glass data.
Continuing a trend dating back to the James Harden trade a year ago, the Nets have also improved their depth by trading one rotation player for two. (Morris had been on the fringes of the rotation recently but played just 285 minutes all season.) Finney-Smith gives Brooklyn another capable two-way role player on a reasonable contract paying him an average of $14.4 million through 2025-26.
Now, Nets coach Jacque Vaughn could conceivably finish games with a lineup of Dinwiddie, Durant, Finney-Smith, center Nic Claxton and wing Royce O'Neale. That's a switchable group with no player shorter than 6-foot-4 and puts three 3-point threats around Durant and Claxton. Notably, it doesn't include Ben Simmons, whose difficulty making free throws makes him tough to play in crunch time.
Add in an unprotected first-round pick timed for after Doncic can become an unrestricted free agent, and this seems like a strong return for Brooklyn, given the circumstances. Of course, only one person's opinion about this trade really matters: Durant's. Whether he believes this supporting cast can help him win a championship with the Nets is the most important piece of this equation.
The other possible key is whether Brooklyn will make another trade by Thursday's deadline. The Nets now have two first-round picks to offer in a trade: the one from Dallas plus one from Philadelphia in either 2027 or 2028. The Nets are overloaded with wings and could stand to swap one of their shooters for another big man. Alternatively, they could try to get in on the bidding if the Toronto Raptors decide to move Fred VanVleet.
If this is Brooklyn's biggest move, it limits the team's ceiling this season in exchange for far more certainty going forward.
Dallas Mavericks: D
Let's start with the obvious but unhelpful part of the analysis: Yes, the Mavericks would have been better off simply re-signing the younger Jalen Brunson for the max -- if that's what it took to retain him last summer -- than giving up a first-round pick and a key contributor for Irving. That opportunity is gone, making it irrelevant to how the franchise moves forward.
Without Brunson, Dallas became dangerously dependent on Luka magic. Thanks to Doncic playing the most minutes per game (36.5) and sporting the highest usage rate (38.5%) of his career, the Mavericks were 28-19 in games Luka played through Thursday's win over the New Orleans Pelicans -- which saw Dallas, up 27 when he left the game with a heel contusion, hang on for a five-point win.
Saturday's Doncic-less loss to the Golden State Warriors dropped the Mavericks to 0-7 when he doesn't play, the biggest reason the Mavericks sit just a half-game out of the play-in tournament a season after reaching the Western Conference finals. Irving will undoubtedly help there, and we have ample evidence of how good he can be playing alongside another ball-dominant star.
That formula won the Cleveland Cavaliers the 2016 title, after all, and was working well for the Nets as recently as last month before Durant's MCL sprain. So does adding Irving make Dallas a title contender? I'm still skeptical. Defense is the big difference between the Mavericks and the teams that have contended with Irving and another star.
For all the fretting about the load on Luka and performance without him, Dallas' offense has actually been better than last season, ranking in the top 10. Defensively, however, the Mavericks have tumbled from seventh in Jason Kidd's first year as coach to 24th.
Adding Irving and subtracting Finney-Smith surely won't help there, though Dallas can expect better interior defense when Maxi Kleber returns from a hamstring tear that has sidelined him since mid-December.
By trading Finney-Smith, Dallas is presumably betting on Josh Green emerging as a starter. The 22-year-old from Australia, much maligned his first two seasons for not being as quick to develop as the older wings drafted after him (Saddiq Bey and Desmond Bane), has taken a step forward in Year 3. Green is making 41% of his 3s, albeit on low volume (3.7 attempts per 36 minutes) and has shown the ability to defend bigger opponents at 6-5.
Keeping Green out of this trade was the biggest win. The Mavericks also managed to maintain a couple of tradeable first-round picks. Assuming this year's selection goes to the New York Knicks to complete the ill-fated Kristaps Porzingis deal (it's top-10 protected), Dallas can still deal 2025 and 2027 first-rounders this summer.
Still, the Mavericks have foregone the possibility of being able to offer a full draft to another team down the road, and given up their most tradeable role player in Finney-Smith. As a result, this looks like Dallas' biggest post-Porzingis swing on trading for a star. The Mavericks will have to count on Irving staying on the court and producing.
How Dallas structures Irving's next contract will be fascinating to watch. Assuming Irving did not waive his trade bonus associated with this deal, he'll be eligible for a two-year extension with a maximum 5% raise each season over his current salary. Alternatively, Irving could play out the season and re-sign with the Mavericks this summer with no such restrictions.
In all likelihood, Dallas will push for a contract no longer than three years. The Mavericks have pointed toward 2025 as an opportunity to add a star via free agency before the final season that Doncic is under contract (2026-27, the last year of Doncic's rookie extension, is a player option he's certain to decline if he doesn't sign a supermax extension before then).
If the two sides can find a new contract that meets both of their goals, Dallas could certainly win this trade. The Mavericks gave up a single first-rounder and role players for one of the league's best players when he's on the court. Although I don't think Dallas becomes an immediate title contender, the Mavericks will have time and some flexibility to reshape the roster around Doncic and Irving in future seasons. With due respect to Brunson, Irving immediately becomes the best teammate Luka has had.
Given the ticking clock on Doncic's free agency, I understand the urgency for Dallas to take a risk in order to win now. However, based on Irving's track record of becoming unhappy with his team at inopportune moments, I wouldn't risk my superstar player's prime betting on him.
- Jun 21, 2009
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elpablo21
Supporter
- Feb 11, 2008
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This is probably a Bobby Marks/Woj collab via Sean Marks/TsaiFeb. 5: Nets trading star guard Kyrie Irving to Mavericks
Nets get:
Dorian Finney-Smith
Spencer Dinwiddie
2029 first-round pick
2027 & 2029 second-round picks
Mavericks get:
Kyrie Irving
Markieff Morris
Brooklyn Nets: B+
The 48-hour turnaround from Irving's trade request being reported to a trade being consummated seems to reflect a couple of key things from the Nets: They were ready to move on from Irving and they found the kind of market they wanted.
A lot of the analysis in the immediate aftermath of Irving's request suggested Brooklyn should call his bluff, as happened last summer when he agitated for a sign-and-trade before exercising his player option to remain with the Nets. Maybe that would have happened if the market was softer, but I think Brooklyn was right to take seriously Irving's reported threat to sit out if not traded. ESPN's Bobby Marks pointed out that actually holding out would have jeopardized Irving's ability to become a free agent, but he could have said he was unable to play because of injury.
In the best-case scenario, keeping Irving past the trade deadline would merely have been kicking the can down the road. Since Irving's return following a team suspension for his repeated failure to "unequivocally say he has no antisemitic beliefs" (and a public apology), things had gone as well as possible on the court. That still resulted in Irving's midseason trade request.
The other difference from last summer is more teams could realistically deal for Irving. Dallas was in that group. Well into the luxury tax, the Mavericks would have had a difficult time consummating a legal sign-and-trade for Irving. Now, Dallas could offer a point guard (Dinwiddie) in addition to a valuable role player (Finney-Smith) and a first-round pick. By contrast, for a trade with the Los Angeles Lakers to yield Irving's replacement, it would have surely required at least one more team (and maybe two, depending on that team's willingness to take back Russell Westbrook's contract).
The first key to this trade for the Nets is what percentage of Irving's production Dinwiddie can replace at a lower salary and with less uncertainty. Quietly, Dinwiddie has had a strong season opposite Doncic, rebuilding his value by hitting a career-high 40.5% of his 3-point attempts.
By swapping Dinwiddie for Irving, Brooklyn is taking a step back in terms of shot creation. When placed in the role of lead playmaker, Dinwiddie has been more of a volume scorer. We saw that with the Nets in 2019-20, when they played most of the season without Durant and Irving. Dinwiddie averaged 22.2 PPG and 7.3 APG in the 44 games Irving missed, but his .470 effective field goal percentage in those games (treating 3s as 1.5 field goals to reflect their added value) was lower than any full season of his career.
With Dinwiddie at point guard, Brooklyn will become even more dependent on Durant for late-game scoring. But Dinwiddie can at least add a scoring punch when Durant is on the bench, a need the Nets had to fill. Brooklyn lineups with neither Durant nor Irving had ranked in the second percentile in terms of offensive rating, per Cleaning the Glass data.
Continuing a trend dating back to the James Harden trade a year ago, the Nets have also improved their depth by trading one rotation player for two. (Morris had been on the fringes of the rotation recently but played just 285 minutes all season.) Finney-Smith gives Brooklyn another capable two-way role player on a reasonable contract paying him an average of $14.4 million through 2025-26.
Now, Nets coach Jacque Vaughn could conceivably finish games with a lineup of Dinwiddie, Durant, Finney-Smith, center Nic Claxton and wing Royce O'Neale. That's a switchable group with no player shorter than 6-foot-4 and puts three 3-point threats around Durant and Claxton. Notably, it doesn't include Ben Simmons, whose difficulty making free throws makes him tough to play in crunch time.
Add in an unprotected first-round pick timed for after Doncic can become an unrestricted free agent, and this seems like a strong return for Brooklyn, given the circumstances. Of course, only one person's opinion about this trade really matters: Durant's. Whether he believes this supporting cast can help him win a championship with the Nets is the most important piece of this equation.
The other possible key is whether Brooklyn will make another trade by Thursday's deadline. The Nets now have two first-round picks to offer in a trade: the one from Dallas plus one from Philadelphia in either 2027 or 2028. The Nets are overloaded with wings and could stand to swap one of their shooters for another big man. Alternatively, they could try to get in on the bidding if the Toronto Raptors decide to move Fred VanVleet.
If this is Brooklyn's biggest move, it limits the team's ceiling this season in exchange for far more certainty going forward.
Dallas Mavericks: D
Let's start with the obvious but unhelpful part of the analysis: Yes, the Mavericks would have been better off simply re-signing the younger Jalen Brunson for the max -- if that's what it took to retain him last summer -- than giving up a first-round pick and a key contributor for Irving. That opportunity is gone, making it irrelevant to how the franchise moves forward.
Without Brunson, Dallas became dangerously dependent on Luka magic. Thanks to Doncic playing the most minutes per game (36.5) and sporting the highest usage rate (38.5%) of his career, the Mavericks were 28-19 in games Luka played through Thursday's win over the New Orleans Pelicans -- which saw Dallas, up 27 when he left the game with a heel contusion, hang on for a five-point win.
Saturday's Doncic-less loss to the Golden State Warriors dropped the Mavericks to 0-7 when he doesn't play, the biggest reason the Mavericks sit just a half-game out of the play-in tournament a season after reaching the Western Conference finals. Irving will undoubtedly help there, and we have ample evidence of how good he can be playing alongside another ball-dominant star.
That formula won the Cleveland Cavaliers the 2016 title, after all, and was working well for the Nets as recently as last month before Durant's MCL sprain. So does adding Irving make Dallas a title contender? I'm still skeptical. Defense is the big difference between the Mavericks and the teams that have contended with Irving and another star.
For all the fretting about the load on Luka and performance without him, Dallas' offense has actually been better than last season, ranking in the top 10. Defensively, however, the Mavericks have tumbled from seventh in Jason Kidd's first year as coach to 24th.
Adding Irving and subtracting Finney-Smith surely won't help there, though Dallas can expect better interior defense when Maxi Kleber returns from a hamstring tear that has sidelined him since mid-December.
By trading Finney-Smith, Dallas is presumably betting on Josh Green emerging as a starter. The 22-year-old from Australia, much maligned his first two seasons for not being as quick to develop as the older wings drafted after him (Saddiq Bey and Desmond Bane), has taken a step forward in Year 3. Green is making 41% of his 3s, albeit on low volume (3.7 attempts per 36 minutes) and has shown the ability to defend bigger opponents at 6-5.
Keeping Green out of this trade was the biggest win. The Mavericks also managed to maintain a couple of tradeable first-round picks. Assuming this year's selection goes to the New York Knicks to complete the ill-fated Kristaps Porzingis deal (it's top-10 protected), Dallas can still deal 2025 and 2027 first-rounders this summer.
Still, the Mavericks have foregone the possibility of being able to offer a full draft to another team down the road, and given up their most tradeable role player in Finney-Smith. As a result, this looks like Dallas' biggest post-Porzingis swing on trading for a star. The Mavericks will have to count on Irving staying on the court and producing.
How Dallas structures Irving's next contract will be fascinating to watch. Assuming Irving did not waive his trade bonus associated with this deal, he'll be eligible for a two-year extension with a maximum 5% raise each season over his current salary. Alternatively, Irving could play out the season and re-sign with the Mavericks this summer with no such restrictions.
In all likelihood, Dallas will push for a contract no longer than three years. The Mavericks have pointed toward 2025 as an opportunity to add a star via free agency before the final season that Doncic is under contract (2026-27, the last year of Doncic's rookie extension, is a player option he's certain to decline if he doesn't sign a supermax extension before then).
If the two sides can find a new contract that meets both of their goals, Dallas could certainly win this trade. The Mavericks gave up a single first-rounder and role players for one of the league's best players when he's on the court. Although I don't think Dallas becomes an immediate title contender, the Mavericks will have time and some flexibility to reshape the roster around Doncic and Irving in future seasons. With due respect to Brunson, Irving immediately becomes the best teammate Luka has had.
Given the ticking clock on Doncic's free agency, I understand the urgency for Dallas to take a risk in order to win now. However, based on Irving's track record of becoming unhappy with his team at inopportune moments, I wouldn't risk my superstar player's prime betting on him.
Mister Meaner
formerly super producer j
- Mar 24, 2007
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Knicks starting lineup is around -20 tonite.
Gotta do better than that.
Gotta do better than that.
- Jul 13, 2005
- 35,392
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They probably know Lebron isn’t staying.
elpablo21
Supporter
- Feb 11, 2008
- 106,411
- 195,826
Harden with 10 dimes in the 1st half
But that doesn't help me with my bread mane
But that doesn't help me with my bread mane
- Sep 5, 2010
- 92,862
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Woj reporting the Nets are gonna turn around and shop the picks to get Durant more help before the trade deadline.
- Dec 27, 2014
- 35,508
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Didn’t even know Morris Twin was part of the deal
Probably punching air right now. Thought he got away from Kyrie but now has to share a flight with him to Dallas.
- Sep 24, 2012
- 5,598
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Kyrie to Dallas is weird. Now you got 2 guys at the same position with similar play styles trying figure out who takes the shot.
- Mar 31, 2011
- 72,982
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Jays really destroyed these fragile dudes
- Nov 2, 2006
- 15,448
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im i supposed to expect more wack *** jokes like this about this duo?
- Jul 18, 2012
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If I recall I believe Kyrie played with Bron and KD.
- Jul 18, 2012
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Yes.
- Mar 31, 2011
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John Collins?
- Sep 24, 2012
- 5,598
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SF’s that understood Kyrie was the primary ball carrier. Luka runs that offense, curious to see who defers to who.
elpablo21
Supporter
- Feb 11, 2008
- 106,411
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They got D Wade from power on here. Should’ve got Tariq
The pass on this btw will be
elpablo21
Supporter
- Feb 11, 2008
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- Feb 12, 2005
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Viable. He seems done with ATL...production been sliding so he's probably on the block for real.
- Oct 3, 2007
- 21,683
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Are they gonna release him?
- Sep 24, 2012
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I’m a hawks fan, JC needs to be spoon fed the ball, dunno who on their roster is equipped to get the ball into his hands when he’s rim running on P&R’s.
- Sep 5, 2010
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Don't think that's a fit with Claxton, Simmons (
) in tow.
- Sep 5, 2010
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