UN Security Council approves No Fly Zone in Libya Vol: Declaration of War

[debso]

so after this are we going to aid the ppl of yemen, bahrain, syria, etc. etc.??

no? didn't think so.

there's definitely a hidden agenda behind this. and i'm not far right guy. i'm a liberal and registered democrat that has always been a liberal and will always be a liberal. i voted for obama. before that kerry. woulda voted for gore but wasn't old enough at the time.


this doesn't pass the smell test, tho. there is no way this is just about helping the civilians of libya. please.

 

[juggy4805]

Originally Posted by debs 168

so after this are we going to aid the ppl of yemen, bahrain, syria, etc. etc.??

no? didn't think so.

there's definitely a hidden agenda behind this. and i'm not far right guy. i'm a liberal and registered democrat that has always been a liberal and will always be a liberal. i voted for obama. before that kerry. woulda voted for gore but wasn't old enough at the time.


this doesn't pass the smell test, tho. there is no way this is just about helping the civilians of libya. please.

I think Yemen can hold there own.

Maj. Gen. Ali Mohsen al-Ahmar said today his soldiers would protect the protesters. Several other generals and diplomats have announced their resignation.
Ali Mohsen is the half brother of President Saleh and is described by commentators on Al Jazeera as the most influential army officer. Ali Mohsen controls 60% of the military.

Tanks and army vehicles are protecting the presidential palace, according to AJ. Other troops and vehicles are guarding the protesters in the capital.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ali-mohsen-yemen-2011-3#ixzz1HHCJr8fQ

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by whiterails

Originally Posted by juggy4805

Originally Posted by TeamJordan79




Oh i'll just leave this right here also:
Source

BP was set to begin drilling July of last year. Why would you quote an article that's 8 months old.

What is it with this thread and complete BS references/sources?

It's obviously way easier than finding things to actually back up their arguments.
Either that or logic is severely lacking. 

 

[Animal Thug]

Originally Posted by StreetPharmacist

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539


So we don't go through congress? We just act like the Mafia, and bomb who ever the !*+% we want?

What a joke this country has become.

Please explain what the stonfaces are for..  

 

[callhimar]

From the NYT today.

Libyan officials and state television have said that dozens of Libyan civilians were killed in the air attacks.But an Indonesian newscaster, Andini Effendi, reported Sunday that she was able to visit two Tripoli hospitals after the airstrikes early on Sunday and found no influx of casualties, only empty ambulances. State television did not show any scenes of destruction, and Libyan officials declined to show any to visiting journalists either.

Instead, they promised Sunday to bring foreign journalists to a funeral for civilians killed in the attacks. But the funeral turned out to be more of a pro-Qaddafi political rally, and the true number of dead remained a mystery.

On the way to the funeral a bus full of journalists was parked waiting for about 25 minutes near a waterfront cemetery, until the arrival of several truckloads of hundreds of Qaddafi supporters waving green flags and wearing green headscarves. Then, when journalists entered the cemetery amid gunfire in the air and pro-Qaddafi chants, they found three freshly covered graves and 24 empty cinderblock holes.

One of the recent burials was said to have died of causes unrelated to the attacks. Another was said to belong to a 3-month-old baby girl, Siham Atabeeb, who was said to have been killed when a bomb hit her home. But neither of her parents nor any siblings were there, and people who said they were more distant relatives told conflicting stories about whether her mother was also wounded and whether she had any siblings.

People around the other fresh grave also said they were relatives, but people gave conflicting descriptions of the deceased — he was 25 or 29; he was killed in his home, driving by a military base, or walking in a neighborhood near the Qaddafi compound; he was a taxi driver, unemployed, or in some other profession.

Source.

These sources don't sound reliable at all. 

 

[thehealthinspector]

we only go through congress for "official" declarations of war, and that probably hasnt happened in 70 years 

 

[kapstone]

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

Originally Posted by StreetPharmacist

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539


So we don't go through congress? We just act like the Mafia, and bomb who ever the !*+% we want?

What a joke this country has become.

Please explain what the stonfaces are for..  

Just google war powers act - Obama doesnt need to go through Congress - he just needs to notify them unless the action will last longer than 60 days - then he needs congressional approval.  The argument (if there is any) is that the law itself is unconstitutional, but that doesnt hold a lot of water in my eyes, especially since congress (who has the power to declare war) passed the law.

 

[Animal Thug]

kapstone wrote:

---

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

StreetPharmacist wrote:

---

Please explain what the stonfaces are for..  
Just google war powers act - Obama doesnt need to go through Congress - he just needs to notify them unless the action will last longer than 60 days - then he needs congressional approval.  The argument (if there is any) is that the law itself is unconstitutional, but that doesnt hold a lot of water in my eyes, especially since congress (who has the power to declare war) passed the law.




That's been understood after doing some research myself. Technically we're not considered at 'war' with Libya, so these actions placed upon Libya are "justifiable".

 I wanted to ask him what part of my statement specifically was he stone-facing?

 

[kapstone]

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539

kapstone wrote:

---

Originally Posted by Animal Thug1539



Please explain what the stonfaces are for..  

Just google war powers act - Obama doesnt need to go through Congress - he just needs to notify them unless the action will last longer than 60 days - then he needs congressional approval.  The argument (if there is any) is that the law itself is unconstitutional, but that doesnt hold a lot of water in my eyes, especially since congress (who has the power to declare war) passed the law.

That's been understood after doing some research myself. Technically we're not considered at 'war' with Libya, so these actions placed upon Libya are "justifiable".

 I wanted to ask him what part of my statement specifically was he stone-facing?
Oh yeah - Sorry i really meant that for the OP.  I think the actions being justifiable and being legal are too very different things.  This just seems like a lose-lose situation for all parties - I dont think our actions are going to be any worse than Gadafi's actions but I am not sure where that gets us anywhere.  The real question I cant figure out is what we do in the Ivory Coast.

 

[mo matik]

Originally Posted by CallHimAR



Also, if you have a favorable dictator who will act in your interests (Mubarak) you're not going to try to get rid of him. I've said for a long time that the last thing the West wants is a truly democratic Middle East. The policies of these countries would directly conflict with ours and due to our need for their resources it would be very messy for the West. 

Removing him from power was necessary because if he stays in power the people who started this revolution, as well as thousands of others will pay for it. This isn't a maybe, this is a definite. The people of Benghazi were about to feel it much worse than they are right now. Gaddafi was going to have no problem massacring them, and it would have continued until the dissent was silenced. If he isn't removed from power, it might not happen now but a few months from now it certainly will. 

Trust me, I'm not taking this at face value, I'm just hoping that we're past the age of replacing one tyrant with another. Wishful thinking, I know, but if it saves a good number of Libyan rebels from being massacred in the street than I am all for it. Only time will tell how democratic these revolutions that have occurred over the past few months will end up being. 

I really think it's a time to be optimistic.

More people are informed on these issues more than ever.  The problem of dictators in the Middle East and civil unrest is becoming apparent.  All those people that have been saying the problem is US support for dictators are saying "I told you so."  The argument makes too much sense. 

I agree with AR completely in that there is a legitimate concern for a serious humanitarian crisis.  That takes precedents over all and most initial reports were that the people were very happy to see an international response.  Unfortunately I haven't been reading much in the past few days and the news is changing so quickly.

 

[newmoanyuh]

What about the people in Iran and North Korea who need liberation?


O wait...

They have nukes. So what message does this send to countries with dictators/tyranical governments?
Aquire nukes and the rest of the world will turn a blind eye.

 

[kingsuperbiv]

ARGGG Now the USS Baaton is headed over there. Talking about for a few days. UH HUH another war. We got the oil lets get the gold now

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by Mo Matik

Originally Posted by CallHimAR



Also, if you have a favorable dictator who will act in your interests (Mubarak) you're not going to try to get rid of him. I've said for a long time that the last thing the West wants is a truly democratic Middle East. The policies of these countries would directly conflict with ours and due to our need for their resources it would be very messy for the West. 

Removing him from power was necessary because if he stays in power the people who started this revolution, as well as thousands of others will pay for it. This isn't a maybe, this is a definite. The people of Benghazi were about to feel it much worse than they are right now. Gaddafi was going to have no problem massacring them, and it would have continued until the dissent was silenced. If he isn't removed from power, it might not happen now but a few months from now it certainly will. 

Trust me, I'm not taking this at face value, I'm just hoping that we're past the age of replacing one tyrant with another. Wishful thinking, I know, but if it saves a good number of Libyan rebels from being massacred in the street than I am all for it. Only time will tell how democratic these revolutions that have occurred over the past few months will end up being. 

I really think it's a time to be optimistic.

More people are informed on these issues more than ever.  The problem of dictators in the Middle East and civil unrest is becoming apparent.  All those people that have been saying the problem is US support for dictators are saying "I told you so."  The argument makes too much sense. 

I agree with AR completely in that there is a legitimate concern for a serious humanitarian crisis.  That takes precedents over all and most initial reports were that the people were very happy to see an international response.  Unfortunately I haven't been reading much in the past few days and the news is changing so quickly.

Thats pretty much what it comes down to. I think with the widespread availability of information as well as the unrest in the region, it's going to be too hard to just throw another dictator in place of Gaddafi. If we did, then there would just be more unrest and another revolution. Also we'd be called out on it quickly. I truly think times are changing right now. Again though, we just have to see what happens over the next few months/years.

 

[tkthafm]

Originally Posted by newmoanyuh

What about the people in Iran and North Korea who need liberation?  

We don't want it with either.

Iran would take down the rest of the region with it if we even tried to pull something like the Libyan NFZ. That's why were resorting to funding TERRORIST groups secretely to destabalize Iran (Jundallah). North Korea ?

 China would body us.

As much as Iran isn't an ideal country itself, I'm a strong advocate of their nuclear ambitions because it is the only country in the region capable of acting as a counter balance against the Zionist puppets/cowardly Arab leaders that make up just about every country surrounding it. Sucks for Gaddafi that he actually tried to be friendlier with the West since the Iraq war, giving up his nuclear ambitions and alienating any Islamic insurgents who would otherwise be fighting "with" him right now purely out of hunger for American blood.

 

[msaba07]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

Originally Posted by newmoanyuh

What about the people in Iran and North Korea who need liberation?  

We don't want it with either.

Iran would take down the rest of the region with it if we even tried to pull something like the Libyan NFZ. That's why were resorting to funding TERRORIST groups secretely to destabalize Iran (Jundallah). North Korea ?

 China would body us.

As much as Iran isn't an ideal country itself, I'm a strong advocate of their nuclear ambitions because it is the only country in the region capable of acting as a counter balance against the Zionist puppets/cowardly Arab leaders that make up just about every country surrounding it. Sucks for Gaddafi that he actually tried to be friendlier with the West since the Iraq war, giving up his nuclear ambitions and alienating any Islamic insurgents who would otherwise be fighting "with" him right now purely out of hunger for American blood.

Be real son ...

 

[fraij da 5 11]

Cant take 95% of these posts seriously...

 

[tkthafm]

You realize a war would China would mean mutually assured destruction for everyone involved in the best case scenario, right ? Our economy is in their stranglehold and their military power isn't too far behind (see chinese subs surfacing undetected right next to our ships during drills). This discussion was already had in the NK thread so we can bump that instead of derailing this one.

 

[callhimar]

Originally Posted by tkthafm

You realize a war would China would mean mutually assured destruction for everyone involved in the best case scenario, right ? Our economy is in their stranglehold and their military power isn't too far behind (see chinese subs surfacing undetected right next to our ships during drills). This discussion was already had in the NK thread so we can bump that instead of derailing this one.

The dependence of China/the U.S. is not a one way street. They're just as dependent on our tremendous consumer base and large corporate entities as we are on their cheap labor. This is the reason a war between China and the United States simply won't happen. 
They've also been less and less supportive of North Korea over the past decade. They're still going to back them, but if North Korea does step too far out of line there would certainly be backlash from China. 

 

[daytona 5000]

Went to go show someone that Farrakhan video and this is what popped up

"This video has been removed as a violation of Youtube's policy against spam, scams and commercially deceptive content."

 

[tkthafm]

Obviously...

Hence the term mutually assured destruction. Also why we so timidly react to NK action.

 

[sundoobie]

Originally Posted by KingSuperbIV

ARGGG Now the USS Baaton is headed over there. Talking about for a few days. UH HUH another war. We got the oil lets get the gold now

Isn't there a jewelry thread on Niketalk with how many pages?   874 pages? 

http://niketalk.com/topic/127594

Where did all that gold and diamonds came from?  
Like I said... people who complain and +$@!$ about what the US/West is doing in the Middle East just needs to look at the mirror.  

 

[callhimar]

Wow. I completely ignored that part of the sentence. Proceed. 

 

[callhimar]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-jet-crash-lands-in-field-near-Benghazi.html

Behind him his F15 Strike Eagle was a burning wreck. He had parachuted into a field of sheep somewhere near Benghazi airbase and needed to escape - his fellow crew member had landed in another field nearby.

Raising his hands in the air he called out "OK, OK" to greet the crowd. But he need not have worried.

"I hugged him and said don't be scared we are your friends," said Younis Amruni, 27.

The airman was one of dozens taking to the air to patrol a no-fly zone over Libya and take out Col Gaddafi's air defences.

They have turned the tide in the desert war, helping rebels keep the government from attacking their stronghold in Benghazi, about 45 minutes drive away.

A queue formed to shake the hand of the airman, as locals thanked him for his role in the attacks.

Witnesses said it was around midnight when they heard two planes streak out of the Libyan sky.

[h1]US jet crashes in Libya: airman would not have known whether he faced friend or foe[/h1]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/mar/22/libya-no-fly-zone-air-strikes-live-updates#block-50

5.52pm: The denial from on the USS Kearsarge contradicts reports on the ground. The Associated Press reports a second plane strafed the field where the pilot went down. It says Hamid Moussa el-Amruni, on whose family's farm the plane landed was himself was shot.

He suffered shrapnel wounds in his leg and back, but he could still walk. He used an old broomstick as a crutch and said he held no grudge, believing it was an accident. He said the second crew member came down in a different field and was picked up by a helicopter, an account that coincided with the US explanation of the rescue, AP reported.

5.26pm: Breaking news from Tom Kington on the USS Kearsarge - who has had a "100%" denial from the US military that Libyan civilians were shot by a rescue mission for downed airmen. He writes: 

http://static.guim.co.uk/...s/images/quote_red.gif); background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; ">
A US military spokesman has denied reports that US Marines rescuing a downed pilot in Libya on Monday night shot and injured six civilians.

"It didn't happen, I can deny this 100%," said Captain Richard Ulsh, a spokesman for the US Marines.

Two pilots parachuted from their US Air Force F-15E near Benghazi after their aircraft suffered a mechanical failure. Two Osprey tiltrotors based on USS Kearsarge off the Libyan coast were dispatched to rescue the pilots, who landed separately. The Osprey has two rotors and can take off vertically before the rotors swivel to allow it to fly like a plane.

One pilot was picked up and brought back to the Kearsarge, where he is being given medical treatment but is in good condition. The US military has said it picked up the second pilot but has not revealed his whereabouts.

Each Osprey was manned by a 12 strong squad of armed Marines, but Ulsh said no shots were fired. "The Osprey is not armed and the Marines barely came off the aircraft," he said. "I was in the landing force operations centre (on the Kearsarge) and firing was never reported."

[h1]Libya: air strikes continue live updates[/h1]
Second article is sad. No doubt civilians were fired on and it's being denied by the U.S.

 

[sundoobie]

"We didn't think it was an American plane. We thought it was a Gadhafi plane. We started calling out to the pilot, but we only speak Arabic. We looked for him and found the parachute. A villager came who spoke English and he called out 'we are here, we are with the rebels' and then the man came out," Hamid Moussa el-Amruni said.
The pilot left in a car with the Benghazi national councill, taking with him the water and juice the family provided. They kept his helmet and the parachute.

A second plane strafed the field where the pilot went down. Hamid Moussa el-Amruni himself was shot, suffered shrapnel wounds in his leg and back, but he could still walk. He used an old broomstick as a crutch and said he held no grudge, believing it was an accident.




Every incident involving civilians is going to be an issue isn't it?  

 It's a WAR for crying out loud.. people are going to be hurt. 

 

[shaunhillftw49]

Civilians murdered by one guy isn't better or worse than being murdered by any other.