Where does Dirk Nowitzki lie on all-time PF list?

[kiddin like jason]

...

You're the second person in this thread to credit Dirk for his consistency, but disregard Webber's, who had better career numbers in essentially everycategory.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

But is Webber 00-01 season better than Dirks best season? Really? Are we sure of that? Better thsn Dirks 05-06 season?

Sacramento uptempo offense make Webber's numbers look better than they actually are.

In terms of scoring Dirk scores the same amount of points in less minutes, less possessions with less turnovers at a way more efficient rate, Dirk is one ofthe most effective scorers in the history of the NBA and did it all with a single digit turnover rate. Webber's is obviously a better passer but Dirk ispretty good himself it's not enough to make up the difference in efficiency between them. Dirk was on another level offensively that year and is moreimpressive than Webbers 00-01 year.

In terms of defense Webbers better but Dirk is a lot closer that y'all think. In terms of rebounding Dirk is pretty much equal to Webber, their reboundingrate that year is identical and when consider the fact that Dirk plays from the perimeter which means less chances for offensive rebounds, I would say thatDirk was at least an equal if not better rebounder.

 

[h3at23]

Originally Posted by JapanAir21

Thinking about his career, he's definitely the best international player to ever lace them up, and he's definitely a top 10 PF of all time, but where on that list does he lie?

I think the top three is pretty undeniable; TD, Malone, and Barkley.

Since KG has a ring, and his prolific career before getting his ring, it's only right to put him above Dirk I suppose.

Elvin Hayes is high up there, while Pettit was a pioneer, Kevin McHale was one of the best during his days as well...

So top 5? Not quite. I think he's somewhere in the mix as 7-9 as far as all-time goes. That's not even mentioning other greats like Dave DeBusschere, Buck Will, or Rodman.

Isn't that all you do?

Just kidding big homie

I like Statis22 & PersiaFly list

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by Kiddin Like Jason

...

You're the second person in this thread to credit Dirk for his consistency, but disregard Webber's, who had better career numbers in essentially every category.

Fooled by uptempo offense.

Dirk played in one of the slowest offenses in the league half his career. He is pretty much equal to Webber as a rebounder, and a significantly more efficientoffensive player so better than him in every category is simply incorrect.

 

[grittyman20]

Dirk hits a game winner, and then NTer makes post placing him as one of the goats.

Perfect.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by Kiddin Like Jason

...

You're the second person in this thread to credit Dirk for his consistency, but disregard Webber's, who had better career numbers in essentially every category.

Webber was good in Washington, but he didn't really take off until he came to Sacramento. And the 5-6 seasons he had in Sacramento he missed like a thirdof games on average per year. He also missed a lot of games in Washington BTW. His consistency is nothing compared to Dirk's. Webber has 5 All-NBAselections (one first), while Dirk almost has as many All-NBA 1st team selections alone.

Webber was a better passer and a better defender but that's about it. You might think that Webber was a better rebounder until you compare their playoffrebounding averages and discover that Dirk destroys him. And this is only comparing their peaks. Career-wise, Webber doesn't come close.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

[th=""]

1	Dirk Nowitzki	2005-06	27	.589	.515	4.6	23.4	14.2	14.7	1.0	2.1	7.9	30.0	123	103	13.5	4.3	17.7
2	Chris Webber	2000-01	27	.516	.481	7.0	22.1	14.8	20.6	1.7	2.8	9.6	31.6	105	97	5.8	5.2	11.0

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Dirk was actually a slightly better defensive rebounder.

 

[banks2pierce]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

Dirk hits a game winner, and then NTer makes post placing him as one of the goats.

Perfect.

Well, he hit a shot that was almost as big the night before. And if you don't want to discuss stuff like this, then what is the point of thesports forum? Dirk is definitely up there on these PF lists.

If you have seen any McHale footage, he was automatic in the post and a tough defender to score on with those Frankenstein arms. Barkley called him thetoughest defender he had to face.

 

[yungmatt]

Dirk>Webber... I dont know how thats even debatable

 

[north dade represent]

Originally Posted by Banks2Pierce



If you have seen any McHale footage, he was automatic in the post and a tough defender to score on with those Frankenstein arms. Barkley called him the toughest defender he had to face.

I'm old enough to have watched his last 4-5 years in the league. It's hard to put McHale up there because he never had to lead a team. Hewas a great scorer and rebounder, but in the clutch you know the ball was going to Larry Legend.

 

[trelvis tha thrilla]

Originally Posted by yungmatt

Dirk>Webber... I dont know how thats even debatable

Seriously. Anyone putting Weber over Dirk is a joke.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by JapanAir21

Nah, KG is over Dirk until he gets a ring. I don't think there's any debate.

does that mean gasol over dirk cause he has a ring?

dirks not even top 10...maybe top 15 or even 20

malone
duncan
debusshere
hayes
lucas
mchale
pettit
barkley
unseld
kg

 

[RyGuy45]

For recent guys Duncan, Barkley, Malone, Garnett are all ahead of him for sure. Right now I would put McHale ahead of him simply going on what my eyes haveseen. Young people don't realize how unstoppable McHale was.

"McHale was the toughest player I ever had to defend." - Charles Barkley


Dirk still has several years left to play at a high level so who know how it shakes out. Thats the beauty of these early arguments.

Some could say Webber in his prime was better than a lot of these PF's, that's cool. But to me can't put him ahead of most of them on All Timelists simply cause he was riding the pine so much. Dude ended up missing 294 total games in his career (3.5 seasons worth) and was basically washed up by 30.

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by westcoastsfinest

Originally Posted by JapanAir21

Nah, KG is over Dirk until he gets a ring. I don't think there's any debate.

does that mean gasol over dirk cause he has a ring?

God you're a moron if you really need to ask that.

No, because KG and Dirk have been on the same level virtually their entire careers.

Pau Gasol was never at either of their levels.

It's like saying Robert Horry deserves to be in the talks of all-time greats.


Dirk's carried his team to 9-50 win seasons, a few WCF, and an NBA Finals, he's an NBA MVP, he's the best shooting big-man ever, he'sversatile, and he's an ironman.

Get out of here with Chris Webber, Dirk's gonna end up with at least 3x as many games under his belt.

If you want to consider Webber, let's get Grant Hill in the discussion of all-time greats too.

 

[blazers21ntnp]

Originally Posted by JapanAir21

Nah, KG is over Dirk until he gets a ring. I don't think there's any debate.

Even if Dirk were to get a ring, I'd still put KG ahead of him.

And I don't think Webber should really be in the conversation...

 

[MVP]

I say top 6. I don't think people realize how consistently good Dirk has been this decade.

TD
Malone
Barkley
McHale
KG
Dirk

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh


Sacramento uptempo offense make Webber's numbers look better than they actually are.

Interesting......

Funny you use this argument AGAINST someone. I use it in another case and you fight that tooth and nail.

Hmmmmmm

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh


Sacramento uptempo offense make Webber's numbers look better than they actually are.

Interesting......

Funny you use this argument AGAINST someone. I use it in another case and you fight that tooth and nail.

Hmmmmmm

Stay away.

 

[CP1708]

Just know, I'm always watching.

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh


Sacramento uptempo offense make Webber's numbers look better than they actually are.

Interesting......

Funny you use this argument AGAINST someone. I use it in another case and you fight that tooth and nail.

Hmmmmmm

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Just know, I'm always watching.

That's fine, but YOU KNOW WHO, is not a PF, not even close, so please, don't bring it up here.

 

[CP1708]

I'm good, no worries. This is about Dirk. I'm sure Osh is in the lab as we speak making up a bunch of formulas to use against me later. That'sfine. This quote will be used against him til the end of time. My point has been proven.


I've got Dirk in that 7-8 range. Gotta have Duncan, Malone, Barkley, KG, McHale, Webber up in there. You could slide Dirk ahead of Webber if you want,I'd listen to that argument. Dirk took a team to the finals, and truly should have a ring, while Webber was always a girl at the end of games and playedhot potato with the ball. He wanted NO PART of late game shots. I can't respect that at all. But his talent and skill level was stupid. Filth was thatman's game. Soft was his game in the postseason though.

Hate to say it, it's his own fault, but a guy that I truly think should have been up in here in the top 5 no less is Rasheed Wallace. That man has skillsthat NO PF can match. He is a blessed player, but his brain is dumb as a box of rocks. Or at least was for the better part of 10 years. If he played thegame the way Dunc did, Sheed would be an all timer. Such a shame to see how he went with his game.

So, yeah, Dirk 6-7-8 or so.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh


Sacramento uptempo offense make Webber's numbers look better than they actually are.

Interesting......

Funny you use this argument AGAINST someone. I use it in another case and you fight that tooth and nail.

Hmmmmmm

You are applying other peoples opinions on Steve to me, o let me clarify.

Steve Nash basic statistcs (and every player on the Suns) are inflated by the speed of the offense, more possesions = more chances for PTS, REBS, and AST.
Steve Nash is not the best point guard in the league CP is by far the best, CP is better at everything other thanshooting. If CP was on the Suns he would average 12-13 assists per game.


BUT even when you adjust for the tempo of the offense he still comes out as one of the best points in the league and probably top 10-12 all time.

I think I said this in the Steve Nash is the best point in the league thread, it's not true.



You gotta look at things on a per possesion basis or the PTS, REB and AST staline NTers like to throw around mean very little.

 

[CP1708]

Relax Osh, another day my man. Another day.....

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Sacramento uptempo offense make Webber's numbers look better than they actually are.

Interesting......

Funny you use this argument AGAINST someone. I use it in another case and you fight that tooth and nail.

Hmmmmmm

You are applying other peoples opinions on Steve to me, o let me clarify.

Steve Nash basic statistcs (and every player on the Suns) are inflated by the speed of the offense, more possesions = more chances for PTS, REBS, and AST.
Steve Nash is not the best point guard in the league CP is by far the best, CP is better at everything other than shooting. If CP was on the Suns he would average 12-13 assists per game.

BUT even when you adjust for the tempo of the offense he still comes out as one of the best points in the league and probably top 10-12 all time.

No no no no no stop.