Where does Dirk Nowitzki lie on all-time PF list?

[osh kosh bosh]

But I thought the offense was never ran through Nowitski like it was for Webber?

 

[kiddin like jason]

There's a difference between being an offense and having an offense ran through you.

 

[venom lyrix]

top 10

my favorite player of all time.

 

[doublejs07]

I'm saying Webber couldn't carry a team late in games when he needed to in the Playoffs. There's no argument against that. I state CLEARLY that Webber was better in his prime, but he never produced anything in the Playoffs, and he never carried anyone anywhere.


I understand that the playoffs make up a large part of what makes a NBA player "great." But if you're ringless (Webber, Dirk, Malone, Barkley)that matters the most when looking at the big picture. No one is going to take solace in said player averaging 25 ppg in the playoffs but not winning it all.If you get to the playoffs it's EXPECTED that you win. Period. Bringing up stats when talking about players who have ultimately been losers, is pointless.They've ALL had their failures and shortcomings.

So because Dirk couldn't get past GSW means you forget the rest of the successful years?


No, but in the grand scheme of things people are going to remember Dirk for his MVP, and losing to a #8 seed in the same season. That's a NBA rarity...as amatter of fact, he may be the only guy in NBA history to win a MVP and have his team as the #1 seed, only to get bounced in round 1. The Mavs circumstances inlosing in round 1 is MUCH more memorable than even being the runner up for the championship when they faced the Heat.

Webber was an injury prone player pretty much his whole career. The man never played more than 75 games. Untapped potential. Same happened with Sheed. I wasn't being sarcastic. He could have been better, but he didn't. Same goes for Webber. Different circumstatnces, Webber probably couldn't have avoided injury, Sheed could have showed that he gave two +$$+* about playing, but still, they didn't make the most of their careers.


You mentioned "unmotivated" when talking about Sheed and Webber. If you're going to talk about Sheed and Webber being "injury-prone"then you need to mention that. You were insinuating that Webber is cut from the same cloth as Rasheed Wallace who is one of the laziest players the NBA hasever seen.

this was your quote:

It's like saying Sheed is better than Dirk, when Sheed is the most unmotivated player in the League.


No mention of Sheed being injury prone...just unmotivated.

There's a difference between Playoff failures and not being able to step up and have a huge game. Only 5 games of 30+ points? Sketch. Webber was the best player on a stacked team. He never had a subpar cast that he took anywhere. Bibby was the guy late in games. You always saw BIBBY taking the big shots for the Kings in the Playoffs.


Webber did have the benefit of playing on a deep team, but that was the beauty of the Kings at the time. They had SO much skill/talent that there wasn'tany pressure on any of the starting 5 to take the last shot. All of them were capable of doing so. Webber's strength was NEVER his jump shooting. It wasdecent, but never to the point where anyone should be comfortable with him taking the last shot from further out than the paint. Dirk can spray from anywhereon the floor. THIS is what seperates him from Webber. Tell me this JapanAir...how many 4/5's around the NBA do you regularly see taking the last shot whenthe game is on the line? Bosh, Dirk, probably a few others...for the most part, you want your best shooter taking that shot. You going to fault the HoustonRockets for letting Sam Cassell take big shot after big shot? You going to fault Lakers/Spurs for trusting Horry with the ball in hands in the clutch when youhave other options? It can go on and on my friend....just because he's not always taking the big shot doesn't mean that he can't hit the bigshot...

I didn't mean to make you butthurt.


not at all my friend.....you directed something at me, and I addressed it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[japanair21]

So it's the old he didn't need to score more? Like Steve Nash?

I'm just saying, he could have given us SOMETHING to remember him from in the post-season, one great game where he went off offensively.

Don't get me wrong, I've stated that he had the entire toolkit, but I would have liked to see him take over the game and dominate offensively ANDdefensively.

Call me naive, but I don't remember it.

And I don't think it's far fetched to say he never took over late.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Dirks 05-06>>Any of Webber's seasons.

 

[prinse3]

I cant take anyone with a bargnani pic seriously. Guy must be the worst rebounding center in the league. Nice package of skills but stop playing with yourmouth open son!

This is very simple. Dirk over his extended career will go down as better, Webber during his prime> Dirk in his prime. Its literally that easy.

 

[japanair21]

I understand that the playoffs make up a large part of what makes a NBA player "great." But if you're ringless (Webber, Dirk, Malone, Barkley) that matters the most when looking at the big picture. No one is going to take solace in said player averaging 25 ppg in the playoffs but not winning it all. If you get to the playoffs it's EXPECTED that you win. Period. Bringing up stats when talking about players who have ultimately been losers, is pointless. They've ALL had their failures and shortcomings.



I see your point, but I hold Conference Championships as an accomplishment, maybe I shouldn't, but I don't think it's fair to clump Dirk, Webber,Malone and Barkley together. You ask any sports fan who knows a lick about basketball which two don't belong, they'll say Dirk and Webber 10 times outof 10. Malone and Barkley had the misfortune of facing two of the most dominant players in NBA history during pretty much their entire careers. (Hakeem andJordan). Those two you could got get past, I don't care if you're Shaq, if you're Magic Johnson, or if you're Wilt Chamberlain, you don'tget around those guys in those years. Webber and those Kings SHOULD have won a ring. They were the most talented bunch of guys of the entire decade. They hadthe best ball movement of any team I've ever watched, in any kind of era. Yeah he had the benefit of playing next to great players, Bibby, Vlade, Christie,Jackson, Peja, you could go on and on with their depth. They SHOULD have won, they never did. It's unfortunate, they're probably the most talentedbunch of guys to never win a ring.

I see what you're saying about Webber's jumpshooting, and that most bigs don't have the ball in their hands late in the game. Maybe that's mybias in that my favorite teams best player is a jumpshooting big so I see a four taking late shots I want to see another four like him making big shots late.

And again maybe it's my bias that I will forever remember the 06 Playoff run more than the 07 stinker. But in that same regard, will Webber be rememberedfor...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/27/93628583_d301537c0f.jpg



Speaking of, Josh Howard had a HUGE mistake by pulling one of those that most people forget in the Finals, where we couldn't advance the ball with 2seconds left in a pivotal game 5.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by PrinSe3

I cant take anyone with a bargnani pic seriously. Guy must be the worst rebounding center in the league. Nice package of skills but stop playing with your mouth open son!

This is very simple. Dirk over his extended career will go down as better, Webber during his prime> Dirk in his prime. Its literally that easy.

Why?

Like I said when was Webber better than Dirk in 05-06, the correct answer is never.

 

[N41D]

People still think Dirk is a terrible defender? Ugh...

Dirk doesn't have an offense run through him and hasn't his whole career?

*shrugs*

Webber was more all-around talented but there ain't no way in hell if I had to pick for one game I'm taking him over Dirk...

Whatever, I'm checkin outta this debate...

 

[doublejs07]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

People still think Dirk is a terrible defender? Ugh...

Dirk doesn't have an offense run through him and hasn't his whole career?

*shrugs*

Webber was more all-around talented but there ain't no way in hell if I had to pick for one game I'm taking him over Dirk...

Whatever, I'm checkin outta this debate...

I agree with this...

 

[prinse3]

You gave an example of one year Osh Kosh... im sayin Webbers extended prime he was more dominant than dirk.

Disclaimers.

1. Dirk is the better player legacy wise

2. I agree with NOWITNESS i would also pick him over webber in one game

im just saying from 2000-2003, you aint playin with Webb.

Mostly i dislike Dirk for gettin slapped up by david west and not doin anything. ahah jp

 

[koolbarbone]

Originally Posted by PrinSe3

This is very simple. Dirk over his extended career will go down as better, Webber during his prime> Dirk in his prime. Its literally that easy.

Basically.

As far as those Kings teams go, they were deep enough where any of them could have taken the last shot but Bibby was the only one with enough confidence to doso. Unless you count Peja airballing wide open threes.

 

[japanair21]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

People still think Dirk is a terrible defender? Ugh...

Dirk doesn't have an offense run through him and hasn't his whole career?

*shrugs*

Webber was more all-around talented but there ain't no way in hell if I had to pick for one game I'm taking him over Dirk...

Whatever, I'm checkin outta this debate...

And I've never said anything more or less than this, just in greater length.

I need to learn to consolidate my arguments, I waste so much time when people just nitpick.

 

[prinse3]

prime doesnt refer to one year in case you were wondering

 

[kal ripped ken]

you're down by 2, who do you want taking the last shot?

 

[ogbobbyjohnson773]

Originally Posted by Kal Ripped Ken

you're down by 2, who do you want taking the last shot?

I'd want Webber to call the time out.

 

[Girl Thats Jules]

Originally Posted by PrinSe3

Im talkin about 01 so dont come at me about other years

or piss off chris mills if your anybody

 

[Girl Thats Jules]

Originally Posted by PrinSe3

Im talkin about 01 so dont come at me about other years

or piss off chris mills if your anybody

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Wow, now it's back to Webber vs Dirk again? Why are folks stillarguing over 8th place or something?

I like how Webber's strongest weakness is that he is useless in the 4th quarter. Safe to say even with his uselessness, the Mavs still couldn't beatthe Kings in the playoffs when it mattered when Webber was healthy. Oh yeah, might as well bring up Dirk-stopper Peja into this topic. At his "prime"he could do even better than what Dirk's biggest strength is, shooting. Can he get some love too? JK.

 

[nicedudewithnicedreams]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Dirks 05-06>>Any of Webber's seasons.

Dirk's 06-07 season was the ishh though...

 

[noblekane]

Originally Posted by Cedric Ceballos 1995 Lakers

i would rank dirk over webber.

webber had a few top notch superstar seasons with sacramento but he was very injury prone at times in his career and dirk has been putting up very good numbers consistently year in year out throughout his career.

sorry but he will go down as the best big man passer in the history of the nba. not to mention he put a franchise on his back

 

[noblekane]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by NobleKane

webber>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dirk by the way

Sorry, why?

do u not remember who was the only big man in that time to be a triple double threat on any given night as far as point, assists, and rebounds???

 

[noblekane]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

But is Webber 00-01 season better than Dirks best season? Really? Are we sure of that? Better thsn Dirks 05-06 season?

Sacramento uptempo offense make Webber's numbers look better than they actually are.

In terms of scoring Dirk scores the same amount of points in less minutes, less possessions with less turnovers at a way more efficient rate, Dirk is one of the most effective scorers in the history of the NBA and did it all with a single digit turnover rate. Webber's is obviously a better passer but Dirk is pretty good himself it's not enough to make up the difference in efficiency between them. Dirk was on another level offensively that year and is more impressive than Webbers 00-01 year.

In terms of defense Webbers better but Dirk is a lot closer that y'all think. In terms of rebounding Dirk is pretty much equal to Webber, their rebounding rate that year is identical and when consider the fact that Dirk plays from the perimeter which means less chances for offensive rebounds, I would say that Dirk was at least an equal if not better rebounder.

im sorry but without those big man waebber and divac and their outstanding passing ability, that sac offense wouldnt have been @+$$. come on now

 

[aljayz863]

Not sure where to put him exactly but his defo in the top 10 along the lines of

Malone
KG
Duncan