☆☆ 2012 NBA Finals ☆☆ The King has been crowned; Heat win 2012 NBA Finals! Bron Finals MVP.

[D Fly]

Doug Collins is the best thing to ever happen to Philly.


My expectations were low going into the season. I love being wrong in this case. Sixers are playing excellent basketball right now.


And if Spencer Hawes keeps up his good play, MIP wouldn't be out of the question.

 

[mronegative]

Originally Posted by Mr DragonFly Jones

Doug Collins is the best thing to ever happen to Philly.


My expectations were low going into the season. I love being wrong in this case. Sixers are playing excellent basketball right now.


And if Spencer Hawes keeps up his good play, MIP wouldn't be out of the question.

you can thank Shawn Kemp for Spencer Hawes, it's pretty amazing.

 

[buc em]

Shawn Kemp worked with him this past summer?I can't wait for this Heat-Clippers game tonight.

 

[bhzmafia14]

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime


bhz, rewind to before the speights trade, what ALONG with speights would it take to get gay to the sixers?

iggy, speights and picks? (no clue if this would actually work under trade rules)

I don't think they would trade for another bad contract if dealing Rudy. I would take Thad, Speights and picks (or possibly Lou Williams) if it was Gay and Henry.

 

[pharelfor3]

Caught the highlights on S of the Heat game. What on earth was LBJ doing in the 4th quarter and OT? Could have put out anyone out there and got those stats

 

[IATT]

Originally Posted by bhzmafia14

Originally Posted by itsaboutthattime


bhz, rewind to before the speights trade, what ALONG with speights would it take to get gay to the sixers?

iggy, speights and picks? (no clue if this would actually work under trade rules)

I don't think they would trade for another bad contract if dealing Rudy. I would take Thad, Speights and picks (or possibly Lou Williams) if it was Gay and Henry.

i mean we all know it would be extremely likely to NOT happen.. but of course it's still fun to discuss


i mean obviously the sixers would trade iggy before turner, just because of that awful contract.. but i really wonder what they could realistically get in return for turner

  

 

[crazy dav0]

lol @ lebron doing nothing in the 4th ... post the skip bayless brick picture

 

[CP1708]

Again, where is Cake, JD, BHZ and the rest with all their "it's just disrespectful" to not call Lebron the best of the best? 

AGAIN, as I have brought up time after time, where is he going in the 4th?  Honestly, last night wasn't even that bad, I was fine with him missing shots, at least he took them.  At least he was IN the play.  That's enough for me.  It's the completely uninvolved stuff that makes me want to hurt somebody. 


I like ALOT of what Bron is doing this year.  I like him playing closer to the basket, I like him not taking as many 3's, working on a post game at least, I'm very happy with that.  And at age 27 now, I'm pretty close to handing him the title of best player.  But he has to earn it from me.  Not just be handed it by these guys and all their love for PER's and such that don't show up when the balance of a game is truly going on. 

Exactly why I never caved and just gave up fighting and said ok, he's the best.  I demand he show it to me first.  So far, he's improved the overall game stuff I wanted to see, when he figures out whatever is going on late in games (again, not talking clutch or not, talking involved or not) then I'll gladly pass him my blessing. 

 

[mronegative]

Originally Posted by Buc Em

Shawn Kemp worked with him this past summer?I can't wait for this Heat-Clippers game tonight.

yup, this doesn't feel like a fluke anymore, kid made a jump in ability.

 

[mronegative]

welp

 

[mronegative]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Again, where is Cake, JD, BHZ and the rest with all their "it's just disrespectful" to not call Lebron the best of the best? 

AGAIN, as I have brought up time after time, where is he going in the 4th?  Honestly, last night wasn't even that bad, I was fine with him missing shots, at least he took them.  At least he was IN the play.  That's enough for me.  It's the completely uninvolved stuff that makes me want to hurt somebody. 


I like ALOT of what Bron is doing this year.  I like him playing closer to the basket, I like him not taking as many 3's, working on a post game at least, I'm very happy with that.  And at age 27 now, I'm pretty close to handing him the title of best player.  But he has to earn it from me.  Not just be handed it by these guys and all their love for PER's and such that don't show up when the balance of a game is truly going on. 

Exactly why I never caved and just gave up fighting and said ok, he's the best.  I demand he show it to me first.  So far, he's improved the overall game stuff I wanted to see, when he figures out whatever is going on late in games (again, not talking clutch or not, talking involved or not) then I'll gladly pass him my blessing. 

Bron would rather be lucky than good when the pressure's on. He plays basketball in a meaningless way. Dude plays advanced coward ball, like helping his team is pulling his defender 30 ft out, by waiting for a moment to help that looks perfect whether it comes in 24 or not. And I get it, he's not a hardheaded dude like Kobe and Melo and Monta. He's not trying to play hero ball, but then play some damn leader ball. Run your halfcourt offense.

It's not enough to only get after it when you've got the lead or when you've been nailing outside shots all game. But you can see it in him, the little hater. You can see the most negative, pessimistic side of him cripple his game time and again. New York would've eaten him alive. I mean I get it if he has lapses or gets tired or loses focus for a play, but after everything that's happened in the last decade he might still not think he's the guy they should point at and say do something.

I don't blame him though, D.Wade's the man.

 

[seymore cake]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Again, where is Cake, JD, BHZ and the rest with all their "it's just disrespectful" to not call Lebron the best of the best? 

AGAIN, as I have brought up time after time, where is he going in the 4th?  Honestly, last night wasn't even that bad, I was fine with him missing shots, at least he took them.  At least he was IN the play.  That's enough for me.  It's the completely uninvolved stuff that makes me want to hurt somebody. 


I like ALOT of what Bron is doing this year.  I like him playing closer to the basket, I like him not taking as many 3's, working on a post game at least, I'm very happy with that.  And at age 27 now, I'm pretty close to handing him the title of best player.  But he has to earn it from me.  Not just be handed it by these guys and all their love for PER's and such that don't show up when the balance of a game is truly going on. 

Exactly why I never caved and just gave up fighting and said ok, he's the best.  I demand he show it to me first.  So far, he's improved the overall game stuff I wanted to see, when he figures out whatever is going on late in games (again, not talking clutch or not, talking involved or not) then I'll gladly pass him my blessing. 

I will say this... i was perplexed by what the hell happened last night, he wasnt even looking to attack. My thing is this, this is happening in wierd *#@ situations for it to be just his doing, watching the game it looks like he's designed to be standing there and that I don't understand.  Even moreso I don't understand why he's not fighting that @##% if it is designed to be that way.

 

[CP1708]

^
Good, so you at least see it, and I'm not crazy.  Thank you.  Allen and Big J were the only ones that saw it a couple weeks ago, and the finals everyone just chalked up to a big moment it happens etc etc. 

That is WHY I actually do question the whole best of the best argument.  It's why I fight when people try to shove it down my throat.  If he attacked 4th quarters the way he does 1-3 quarters, yeah, I wouldn't have an issue.  He doesn't, and I have ZERO idea why.  Really, who on Minnesota is going to slow him?  They can't do it for 2 hours, why in the last half hour does he stop?  Who on G State is going to slow him?  If I know that, HE knows that, right?  Right? 

  It's the most bizarre thing I have seen from an elite player.  And I can't even think of something even remotely close. 

 

[hankmoody]

He's still the best player to me. He's definitely not nor ever will be the best finisher or one-on-one player. That's when his game regresses, when he tries to go one-on-one ISO instead of playing in the flow. It's just something he is not suited for. That doesn't mean he's not the best player in the NBA. He was still putting up a 37 PER this season, last time I checked (probably lower now).
He'll never be Kobe, Wade, or Melo in ISO situations. That's just not his game. But those guys will never be the overall player LeBron is.

Do advanced start back up my point about ISO situations?

Just wondering, does this clutchness argument only applies to non-big men? Because then Shaq was never the best player in the NBA. He put up great stats but where was the so-called clutchness? Where are the game winners? Kareem had plenty of those...

 

[dior paint]

Originally Posted by copped

lebron unhappy? dude looked like he did not care at all last night....

in the huddles he was on the outside not even looking at spoestra while biting his nails....

dude literally just stood at the top of the 3 pt line passing off the ball down the stretch and in OT....horrible.

Someone probably did something with one of the females in his family. That's usually the excuse when he plays bad right? 
I think he's the most talented player in the league. "Best" is arguable. His enthusiasts...especially on this board...will give you essays about why he is the best player in the league. Then when he does something like having the BIGGEST dropoff from season to finals production EVER...they can't explain themselves all of a sudden. It's just an "I don't know...don't know what happened". 

As I've said the past few years...arguably the greatest talent we've ever seen...but there's something about his mental makeup that make me question whether he'll ever be the player he SHOULD be.

He'll never be Kobe, Wade, or Melo in ISO situations. That's just not his game. But those guys will never be the overall player LeBron is. 

That's a VERY big component to being a dominant player don't you think? His versatility and strength...which is what I guess you referring to...really don't mean %@%* when it's time to throw all cards on the table and put your squad on your back and go to war. We've seen him do it before...(Pistons series in '05). 

 

[seymore cake]

CP1708 wrote:

---

^
Good, so you at least see it, and I'm not crazy.  Thank you.  Allen and Big J were the only ones that saw it a couple weeks ago, and the finals everyone just chalked up to a big moment it happens etc etc. 

That is WHY I actually do question the whole best of the best argument.  It's why I fight when people try to shove it down my throat.  If he attacked 4th quarters the way he does 1-3 quarters, yeah, I wouldn't have an issue.  He doesn't, and I have ZERO idea why.  Really, who on Minnesota is going to slow him?  They can't do it for 2 hours, why in the last half hour does he stop?  Who on G State is going to slow him?  If I know that, HE knows that, right?  Right? 

  It's the most bizarre thing I have seen from an elite player.  And I can't even think of something even remotely close. 




He HAS To Know That... Which is what makes it all the more confusing.

Like I think back to when he was in Cle and I don't remember him ever doing this... I mean sure he DOMINATED the ball but he never just STOOD 25-30 FEET from the basket... Even in that game vs Boston he wasn't shooting but he was at least putting pressure on the defense before he passed it off.

I genuinely don't get it... and I'm with you I can't think of any situation like this... The closest I come up with is Randy Moss just not giving a %+#* but I don't get that vibe from this... Its different, really really weird.

 

[alleniversonfan01]

Originally Posted by HankMoody


Just wondering, does this clutchness argument only applies to non-big men? Because then Shaq was never the best player in the NBA. He put up great stats but where was the so-called clutchness? Where are the game winners? Kareem had plenty of those...

Its harder to distinguish with Big men. They dont get the game winners because they (for the most part) cant create their own shot. They cant kill 10 seconds dribbling on the perimeter then attack in the last 5-6 seconds and get the shot they want for the win. And with the way refs swallow their whistles on drives late in the game they will more than likely get hammered on the shot with no call. Id much rather have a shooter take my last shot even if he isnt my "star".
Obviously if you had Shaq, or now Dwight (I would say Bynum too but we all know Kobe takin the last shot no matter how difficult it ends up being) and they have their man pinned under the basket you are gonna throw him that ball and take the chance he can just mash it home. But more than likely thats not gonna be the case. You dont draw up plays in the TO hoping your big man gets good positioning down low because if that doesnt work out your stuck with no play.

As for Bron, Let me know if im wrong since I only got to catch the last 5 mins and overtime. But it looked like Wade had the hot hand at the end and I think he was just letting him rock. But like you guys have said he just cant do that being the player he is. Im not gonna say hes !#$$! made (Bron is one of my favorite players so this is no hate) but you can definitely tell he doesnt like the criticism he gets when they lose. Hes just not used to it and I think he just trys to avoid being in those situations all together by standing around sometimes. I feel like he is the best player in the league, but he could lean a few things from Kobe/Melo/and other great ISO players. Sometimes you have to get that drive and say no matter what they play is, you have to take charge and say im gettin the ball this time down. And if you miss you live with it and play another day. But you have to have the ball in your hands at the end of the game being the player he is. Even with Wade and Bosh on the floor with you. 

 

[mronegative]

speaking of not getting it done



could you imagine? I mean VC vs. AI was a classic, but Lakers-Raptors with Tracy...man

 

[al3xis]

If anyone doesn't think Shaq was the best player for a period of time -- they are a moron.


And I have a far, FAR bigger problem with what LeBron showed on defense last night than anything. He was atrocious. Lazy, drifting off, late closing out on Wright, bad close out on Rush, not chasing down a rebound, letting Nate skate by him, etc. THAT stuff was unacceptable, especially off two days rest. And those things are what I tend to believe separates him from anyone else.

That coupled with the stretch of basketball from about 3:30 to 1:00 minute left in the 4th was when he was terrible and timid on offense for what reason? they still had the lead. but he put Haslem and Chalmers in bad spots and came up empty on 3 possessions.


Had little issues with OT until his forced pass to Wade that led to a layup.

Mostly because Only one possession in the first 4 minutes OT did not go through LeBron. And that's all I ask..he does not need to take the shots, but he does need to be in the middle of it making plays. OT was fine, the stretch in the 4th was not.

OT went..

-LeBron Layup
-Assist to Bosh
-(one possession not through LeBron-- Two man game with Bosh/Wade..turnover.)
-Assist to Bosh
-Bron to Bosh to Wide open 3 for Chalmers - missed..it happens
-Assist to Bosh
-Turned it over trying to give it to Wade..horrible decision..no reason to do it. Bosh came for the PNR and he didn't use it and threw the ball in the corner to a covered Wade. it made and still makes absolutely no sense to do that.

then Wade went iso, hit one, missed the next and then LeBron missed the 3. ball game.

You live with what they were getting on offense but I've come to expect more from the Heat and in-particular, LeBron, on the defensive end and last night was as bad it gets.

 

[Deleted member 38182]

Originally Posted by Al3xis

If anyone doesn't think Shaq was the best player for a period of time -- they are a moron.

QFT.
Were there ever any certified Shaq-stoppers????

I recall Mutombo getting a lot of praise when he was with the Sixers and Nets.... but all I remember was him getting bullied in the post

 

[CP1708]

Well, it's different for Centers imo.  I define "best" in the game by doing any and everything.  Ballhandling, dribbling, board, pass, score, post, shoot, range, all of it.  Total package type stuff. 

That's why to me I never put Shaq, or Dwight, etc as the "best".  I think the most Dominant part comes into play with those guys, if that makes sense. 

To me, wings are the only ones that can do everything on the court, unless you are Magic and a freak anomaly. 

Guys like Iverson, or Paul or Nash aren't posting up or snatching rebounds etc. 

Magic, Bird, Mike, Kobe, Tmac, Bron, Wade, those guys can and do all that stuff.  I would include Dirk as well, he's similar to Bird in his overall game/skill. 

And for a minute, KG made quite a strong push. His skill was undeniable, and he could guard 1-5, handle a lil bit, pass, board, score from 20 ft in, he was freakish, but uh, never saw a shot he couldn't pass up in the balance of the game.  So, deduct points we shall. 

 

[seymore cake]

Originally Posted by CP1708

And for a minute, KG made quite a strong push. His skill was undeniable, and he could guard 1-5, handle a lil bit, pass, board, score from 20 ft in, he was freakish, but uh, never saw a shot he couldn't pass up in the balance of the game.  So, deduct points we shall. 

G... KG was one of my favorite players ever before this Boston ++!+ ... but you're spot on about him in every way

 

[Deleted member 38182]

I feel you on centers and bigs (Shaq/Duncan) having almost a different definition of "best", same could be said for point guards (Nash/Payton/Kidd) too since..........and if we are going down this path would could just say the same for scorers (Kobe/T-Mac/Wince/Iverson/Ray) and all around stat stuffing studs (KG/Lebron/Webb

)
So defining who the "best" player of an era in the NBA is definitely very tough say, let alone categorize.

 

[Peep Game]

Originally Posted by cRazy dav0

lol @ lebron doing nothing in the 4th ... post the skip bayless brick picture

As soon as I saw that all I thought about was Skip & Stephen A having a field day on him. Surprised they didn't though.
Nate Rob

 I've been rooting for this dude to just get his chance and really stick with a team. Hope it works out for him

in Golden State

 

[illoquent aka dsk]

Originally Posted by Seymore CAKE

My thing is this, this is happening in wierd *#@ situations for it to be just his doing, watching the game it looks like he's designed to be standing there

See this is a cool excuse if it happened 2-3 times but it's been so many instances now (dating back to his Cleveland days, w/ a few exceptions here and there) that I can't do anything else but put it strictly on him. Ok, it's on Mike Brown...fine...then Erik Spoelstra doesn't know what he's doing...alright. So if Erik fails this team and it's Riley's turn to coach...what will be said then?

Originally Posted by DIOR PAINT

there's something about his mental makeup

This is undeniable to me.

It's not coincidence, it's not the coach, it's not the "subpar cast around him", it's none of that *!%! anymore...this is who he is.

That might be hard to accept for some because of how great LeBron is but until he proves otherwise...*shrugs*

And before anyone says it...yes it's a meaningless reg. season game that doesn't matter. But it's yet another display of 'aloofness' that we've come to familiarize with...