Your mad emotional. Calling my argument "ignorant" because our opinions slightly differ is corny as hell. Steph Curry is the best shooter in the NBA sure but to call him a flat out better scorer than Kyrie isn't fair at all that boy can fill it up with the best of them and I would love to see them two match up in the finals. Don't let those 500 word post get to your head your no more knowledgeable than any one of the regulars in this thread at all. Not feeling the condescending tone in your posts at all lately and I think its time you clean it up.
First off there is no emotion going on at all from me. In case you just met me this is what I do. I rant about **** going on in basketball and the Knicks.
There is nothing "emotional" about what I said. I dont still have feelings about losing Shumpert and I have even basked up Phil for making the trade.
Regardless, I called your argument "ignorant" because that is exactly what it was. This could have been about any player in the league, the second somebody says to me "Player X is trash, just look at his stats," I see that as ignorance. I dont care who you are or which player we are talking about, if that is your rebuttal to something that I said, I find that ignorant. That is not me being emotional.
Now if you said, "Shumpert is trash because because he does this and this and whatever," then I would certainly not come at you for being ignorant. I might respond to your point in disagreement, but that is what arguments are all about. But the second you say that Shumpert is trash and then try and back that claim up with "look at his stats," there is no other way I could respond to that besides calling that ignorant.
However, I will try and do so anyway. First and foremost saying "look at his stats" is generally not an intelligent statement when evaluating a basketball player. There are many times a players worth is evident by looking at his box score but with certain players that just isnt the case. Shumpert falls under that class of players. He always has. Regardless of when he plays good or bad, you could never truly tell that by looking at his stat line. Some of Shumpert's best games with the Knicks his stats didn't differ all that much from his worst games with the Knicks.
But now that I have addressed that have yall even watched Shumpert play recently with Cleveland or all you all still to busy harboring bad blood from how his time ended with the Knicks? Shumpert has been crucial to the Cavs recent success and like I said that has never been on more of a display than it was today. He was their X-Factor. Anybody who watched the game could see that. But to use your own ignorant argument lets look at his stats: 15 points on 3/4 shooting and 8/8 from the foul line, 10 rebounds 2 steals and 3 blocks.
You told me "look at his stats." Ok there, I looked at his stats. And I watched the game. Still nothing there that shows me that Shump is "garbage." How about you do the same and explain to me why exactly Shumpert is trash because I am just not seeing it. Call me emotional I guess whatever. To me, that is pretty much the same as "look at his stats." Just some bull **** to say at me when you really have nothing else worth arguing. The point of this thread is to foster discussion that will sometimes lead to a friendly argument. If that is the case with Shumpert than so be it, I love arguing, and a lot of times I can take one side of an argument and still have a lot of respect for the person on the other side of the argument and what they have to say. But when you call me "emotional" and use "look at his stats" to back up your argument even when his stats are counterintuitive to your argument, that is when I have no choice but to call you ignorant given the circumstances.
So no, I am not calling you "ignorant" because our opinions slightly differ. I would never call somebody ignorant for not agreeing with you. And I am not even trying to call you an ignorant person, just that your argument against Shumpert in this one particular instance was ignorant.
In no way do I find myself more intelligent than anyone in this thread at all. I know that I write long as **** posts but that is just how I am. Its not a matter of intelligence, I can't even help myself from doing so most of the time. Im almost insulted that you would say that about me because I have never been condescending with anybody in this thread no have I ever treated any NT Team NYK members with anything but the upmost respect even when I argue with them at times. At the end of the day its all love and it is still all love here. I have nothing against you personally at all either, nor do I think that I am smarter than you. Its just that in this instance, your argument was ignorant. I am sorry to have to say that but it was. "Look at his stats" is an ignorant argument to begin with, especially when it goes completely against the point you are trying to convey, as it did here.
But back to the argument, I know that Shump had his ups and downs but I definitely think he is the kind of player that ultimately plays better/is more valuable on better teams. Shump was always great for us when the Knicks were winning, these past 2 years have beena nightmare but I feel like that is almost because we expected too much from Shumpert. At the end of the day, Shumpert possesses a skillset that is very attractive to NBA teams today and it honestly is pretty much the same exact skillset we are going after in free agency. Like I said before, if Shump was on the Cavs for his entire career and was playing the way he is playing right now, I could almost guarantee that people would be saying that the Knicks should go after him in free agency.
If we could find ourselves a franchise PG and surround Melo with some capable scoring options, a guy like Shump could have been great here to play some defense on the perimeter and do the little things he is doing now in Cleveland when he is not expected to be a scoring threat. I think somebody who has managed winning teams in the past such as Phil Jackson could have saw that coming despite Shump's up and down Knicks career to date.
But at the same time maybe it is telling that he didn't. It was going to be risky to pay a guy like Shumpert with all of his baggage the money we were going to have to to keep him around. All I hope is that the Knicks find what they are looking for from the 2 guard spot this summer so we don't have to worry about what could have been with Shump down the road. Because watching him in the playoffs lately, I see a guy out there who is a positive contributor on a winning team with the right pieces around him. A guy that could do the little things his team needs him to do, guard the opposing team's best scorer at any one of the 3 positions, and occasionally hit a shot or 2 when asked to.
Im glad that we got JR's bum ******ed *** out of NY and I think it was smart to use Shumpert to do so if we werent going to resign him anyway. Doing this allowed us to at least get some trade value out of shump as opposed to losing him for nothing this summer, and it also got baggage/baggage contract (JR) off this team and made us a worst team this season thus improving our potential draft position. I just think that of all the key pieces we traded this past year (Tyson, JR, Shump) the player that I could definitely see the Knicks missing most/regretting getting rid of down the road is Shumpert. That is all I was trying to say And I don't think that he is "garbage" just because he had a couple bad years in NY when pretty much every part of this team was a mess. He is still a young player who has a lot of room to grow and that kind of losing atmosphere will take a toll on a young player like Shump. But put him in a winning situation and he has the skillset to help you out and the room to improve his game and attitude. Watching him today made me think about that. Made me think that this guy could have been that 2 guard we are looking for and he was right here for the taking all along.
That is all. Didn't mean to start an entire thing and I CERTAINLY don't feel that any single one of yall are inferior in any way to me just because I write a lot. That is some bull ****. I respect every single one of yall and that is why I come in here to talk Knicks and get into arguments with yall. And I love getting into intelligent discussions/arguments with yall because I respect all of your opinions so much which is why I have been in this thread since 2007. But if you come at me with an ignorant statement, im gonna tell it as is. Hope yall do the same for me...
@YEEUPP was thinking the same exact thing
Up 3-0, the JR flagrant + ejection and the shoulder injury by one of their best players. So much Deja Vu. Might bet Chicago next round just for the **** of it
EDIT:
He's a role player and nothing more.
And what is wrong with that? This isnt about what we could get out of him in a trade its that he could have been a good option to keep. If the Knicks get the kind of players we hope to this summer we are going to need some defensive minded role players especially at the 2 guard position and Shumpert had a chance to fit the bill.
At the end of the day I am not devastated over the trade or anything like that. Phil gave Shumpert a clean slate and a chance to prove himself here and he didn't do that. The Knicks needed to tank and with Shumpert being a RFA this summer anyway, I don't mind Phil using him to get rid of JR.
All I am getting at is that watching Shump lately made me see a player the Knicks could use. It made me think that Shumpert isnt a bum, he just is at his best playing a reduced role on a winning team. Aint nothing wrong with that and the Knicks in fact are looking for precisely that. Im not even saying that the Knicks will definitely miss him though and that we definitely wont find a 2 guard who is as good or better than Shumpert. What I am saying is that out of Shump, Tyson, and JR, the ONLY one of the 3 I could see the Knicks missing down the road and getting rid of is Shumpert.
And just because we might miss a player down the road doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't smart to get rid of them at the time. I mean there have been times in the past couple of years where I have regretted the Knicks letting David Lee go and signing Amar'e instead. Does that mean it wasnt the smart move to let Lee go and sign Amar'e when we had the chance? Probably not. You could argue that it wasn't wise even at the time to give Amar'e that big of an uninsured contract with his injury history but the Knicks needed some new blood. We couldn't completely strike out that summer after all that building up to it and at the time Amar'e was a better player than David Lee. He was. So we went after him and we got him.
Sure it was unfortunate how things played out. But you couldn't predict at the time D'Antoni running him into the ground and him basically becoming the modern day Allen Houston. The Knicks had a choice to make at the time and they chose to go with the better player and it was probably the right move. Amar'e put the Knicks back on the map and made a perennial bottom feeder into a playoff team for the first time in more than 5 years even before we got Melo. But even with all of that, there were a lot of times when I watched David Lee do work out in Golden State where I regretted letting him leave for Amar'e.
Lee lasted longer and he was such a great rise to success story, it would have been nice to have a player like that be a career Knick. So similar to that, even though it probably wasn't dumb to give up Shumpert this year, I could still see the Knicks regretting it down the road. Especiually if Shumpert continues to play the way he did in the playoffs.
And I think that at his best Shumpert is a lock down defender. He is still a role player, but he is a very very good defender at his best. Tall, very athletic, quick, very good hands, good instincts, etc, and he is still young. He has all the tools to become an elite peremeter defender, and I think during stretches he was just that in NY. I think his gambling the past few seasons was mostly due to trying to make the spectacular play on Knicks teams that were just awful defensively. He didn't do that much when he was younger and you definitely see a lot less of it now in Cleveland.
