Champions League knockout stage draw

I hate that we can't talk about how good Messi was today without the obligatory argument about whether he's better than such and such.

No one really knows the answer to that, and it's just gonna be the same Kobe/LeBron garbage that goes on in S&T.

I felt fortunate to be able to watch Messi today and I can't wait for the World Cup to see if he can continue his run and cement himself as one of the GOATs.
 
Originally Posted by Jada2001Retro

 we might get Rodellega from Wigan, we need to strengthen our squad big time and come back next year even harder.

Good CL run, Gunners.
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  why on earth would you guys go for him. Rodallega is not the player Arsenal needs, hes terrible for a team of that quality. I remember seeing him playing in Mexico with Necaxa and Atlas and he never did %*%!, hes a "casa goles"..and he needs players that work for him not the other way around. Thats a horrible choice for Arsenal
 
That's just a rumor, idk how true that is. He fits Wigans system pretty well, I don't think he'd work on our team either. Chamakh on the other hand is going to work out just fine. We need to buy us a defender dearly...I hope Wenger will spend the cash and get either Hangeland or Subotic. Both would partner Vermaelen very nice in the back. As much as I like WG10, he is getting old and will be picking up more injuries. If he's not traded to Roma or PSG, I'll be suprised too. Wenger won't give him a 2 year extension.
 
Gallas is gone. His contract is expiring at seasons end and he's free to go wherever he wants without Arsenal getting anything in return.

Anyways, based on what I saw from Arsenal today:
-Bendtner is really slow, has a poor first touch and is not very good technically. I see promise in him (he has good awareness and is strong in the air) but he shouldn't be starting next year.
-Walcott is extremely limited as a player and has a ton of work to do. Right now he's a one-dimensional player that relies on his speed. Other than that, he is not very skilled with the ball and makes some very poor decisions when he gets it. He's still only 20-21 so we'll need to be patient.
-Rosicky had a poor game...he's never really been able to thrive on the wings since arriving to Arsenal. I think that he's surplus to demands...he's a good player but he wont get the chance to play in his natural position for the club. We'd be better off with a natural winger coming off the bench instead of Rosicky.
-Diaby played with a ton of energy and was his usual enigmatic self. He made some great plays but also made some stupid ones. He should be a sub next season.
-We really missed Alex Song out there. Barca were killer on the counter-attack and Arsenal missed Song's ability to disrupt opposing attacks. If he was playing today then I dont think Barca would've won as easily. Maybe 2-1 or 3-1.
-Arsenal need to buy 2 central defenders. One to replace Gallas in the starting line-up and one as a sub.
-Gael Clichy needs a brain. I dont know what has gotten into him but this season he has not been at his best. I dont think he's as big of a problem as our CF, CM, GK issues so I dont think it's a priority to find a replacement at LB.
 
Originally Posted by Carlos Tevez

wttm, what exactly did I say wrong? I said IF Messi keeps this up for 5+ years then he'll be considered amongst the greatest ever. What's wrong with saying that? It's a fact...if he continues playing at this level for an extended period of time then why wouldnt he be amongst the best?

We are all very familiar with Ronaldo and despite his injuries, he will still go down as an all time great. Unfortunately for him though, injuries robbed him of the chance of perhaps being considered the GOAT.

Messi will have to win a WC to perhaps be considered the GOAT. To me he is already an all time great but for him to be compared to Pele and Maradona he will have to win the WC and continue to play at this level for another 5+ years. I understand the criticism of Messi's international career but he's only 22 and still has a lot of time to silence the critics.

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Nothing is incorrect of what you said since its your opinion but all I'm saying is people are too quick to put him up there with the GOATs when he hasn't done anything on the national stage, and putting him beside names such as Maradonna, Pele, Zidane, the Kaiser, and even Ronaldo. To be fair, he's only 22 but assuming he will continue this for 5 more years is too premature, anything can happen. All I'm responding to you  is telling people to chill about his national performance, while people already deem him one of the GOATs should chill. Injuries? Burning out (Ronnie style? when everyone put him up on that pedestal already? ) but again i'll reiterate again, AGE is at Messi's advantage. 

Although it's not his fault being on such a great team (barca), I just want to see him do it in the white/blue shirt before anyone put him up there. please don't get me wrong, he doesn't necessarily have to win it all but just to perform well and quiet frankly he hasn't (qualification? past tourney, etc) and i'll wait till June before i place judgment.
 
There is a huge difference between saying "if he does it for 5 more years" and "when it does it after 5 more years".

I used the word "IF" because ofcourse we do not know what the future holds. Injuries, loss of form, Barca declining...there are too many variables. Hypothetically speaking though, if Messi performs this well for an extended period of time then he will go down as one of the true greats.

He hasn't played as well for Argentina yet but lets give him some time. I think its harsh to criticize a guy for what he hasn't done in such a short period of time while not focusing enough on all the great things he's done in that same time period.

I do not think I am exaggerating. Right now he's clearly the best and not too many players in history have done what he has done by the age of 22. Now, if he can keep this up and perform at a high level for Argentina then we should begin to wonder where he lies amongst the greats. We shall revisit this convo in 5-years or so.

As for Inter vs. Barca, I think they're the two best teams left and one of them should go on to win this competition. They are extremely familiar with each other having played each other twice already this season. There are plenty of interesting story lines and hopefully it lives up to the hype on the pitch. We know how Barca will play, the major question is how Mourinho will approach this tie. Does he want to grind out the result or does he have enough confidence in his boys to let them play and maybe even outplay Barca?
 
Yeah Gallas I hate to admit is gone, before he got injured, that backline was almost impossible to get past. God really hates Arsenal.
 
Portugal are now in their golden era? They barely qualified for the WC. Their golden era was led by Figo.
-Argentina have plenty of leadership. Samuel, Zanetti, Veron, etc are all leaders.
-You dont consider Ronaldo and Messi to be elite right now? The two best players in the planet aren't elite? Two guys who have each won plenty of awards including domestic titles, European titles, WPOYs aren't elite? Both of them are already two of the best to have ever played the game. Whatever they accomplish from now on will only add to their legacies.
-Ronaldo did not 'choke' in Euro 2004. Ronaldo was 19-YEARS-OLD back then. What did you expect him to do?
-You're right that the U20 WC is not at the same level as other events but I pointed it out as an example of Messi's success away from Barcelona. The 2008 Olympics is another example.
-Putting them in the same category is not stupid. When you have footballers/analysts far more knowledgeable than you or I making the comparisons then you realize this is a very valid discussion.


Doesnt matter how you qualify, its if you qualify or not. Your acting like every team flies through qualification. The problem with portugal is the lack of a good striker. Same convo you and i had during the euros. This time around almeida was hurt, liedson lets be real he's not a class striker, nuno gomes is over the hill. Yes figo/nuno/rui costa/costinha era was superior but if portugal WAS healthy(since it seems pepe/bonswinga wont make it) their defense/mid is just as good as anyone elses.

Yes the 3 people you named are good leaders for argentina. I felt when zanetti was stripped from captain it was a sign that he wouldnt be on the roster? Veron i hope makes the roster too but i doubt it imo. However the point i was making was Messi/Ronaldo are not the leaders of their nation as yet. To me nothing better watching a guy lead his team to victory. Like Zidane against Brazil. I dont know about you but i didnt see that coming.

Superior is one thing. To me elite are the zidane's Ronaldos pele etc etc. I dont know if its just my respect for seeing what they did to elevate the game but putting messi/ronaldo there now seems a bit much to me. Its like guys like pablo aimar/rivaldo who have great seasons, are class players who are to me great players but their arent elite. But given their era, they had brilliants seasons. I dunno maybe im wildin.
Elite, thats all subjective, if you feel they are in that class, props to you. IMO they are not there yet. Not to say they wont have time to get there. I guess an analogy would be how everyone compares bron/kobe to Jordan. My point about being elite had nothing to do with Team accomplishments either. I thought i specified that RONALDO OR MESSI are not in a leadership role as yet. Just because quieroz but a captain band on Ronaldo dont make him %+!.

Since when does age matter in football? Dude missed a sitter in the final. Plain and simple. I dont care if he was 16. What did i expect him to do? how about score? is that to much to ask? How you gonna lose to games to the same damn team SMH.

I dig you on the u20 and olympics. However my boy Di maria did his thing too(shameless plug). I remember checking livescore in the u20 and was like who the f is this messi dude keep scoring.

Personally i think their are too many differences in each others game to say who is the best. Its just like when people ask who is the best player in the world. I guess it could never be a defender? How about a goalie. Of course not because their achievements are never seen as good enough. I was surprised when Khan got the respect he deserved in Korea WC. If you dont play Mid or FWD you not getting no love in POY. Now let me ask you this. If ronaldo went to benfica and scored 90goals a season but Messi scored 20 and lead his team to UCL victory who would win the POY? IMO stats dont mean %+!, its what you do for your team. Regardless of goals or not Messi has been more valuable to his team than ronaldo this year by far. Granted ronaldo isnt having a shabby season, its just not even in the shadows of messi's.

BTW i love the discussions for the real futbol guys here who know what they are talking about. Granted everyone is entitled to their opinion and i respect that, but i think both me & you know there are alot of dudes in here talking out their @ss. Anyone remember last year the dude who said Drogba is the fastest player in the world?
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Why wasn't Vela put it the game!?!?!??!

On another note. Here's the gunners fans today: 
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Carlos i totally respect what you said but again; he hasn't done much internationally = fact, what he could do in the next 5 years = assumption. 

Moving on.............by merits, C Ronaldo could've been one of the GOATs on what he did 2 seasons ago if he kept up with it. He's having a good year but he's not at the top like he was in merely 2 years and that could easily happen to Messi. 

I'll say this though, if anyone in this generation can do it, its Messi. 

Dat Exclusive Cat  raised some quality points about leaderships and players having a couple sensational seasons. 

Onto tomorrow, do you guys think United can grind it out without Rooney tomorrow? It is at the Theatre of Dreams so I see them prevail. 
 
At this point, I think it's pointless to engage in any kind of "best ever" talk. This man is too damn young for us to name him that, although I do believe that in the past 18 months Messi has shown the best form any
player has ever shown in such a stretch of time.

What I'd like to say tonight, and I won't be adding anything else, is that for the first time in my soccer-watching life I am thankful to be watching somebody play. I am partial to Barça and watched this game in Barcelona surrounded by Gunner fans, and the feeling after Messi's first strike was that something magical was about to happen. After the second goal, the Brits were pretty much talking themselves into a "what can you do?" mentality, and by the third they were openly admiring the work of Messi. I was there too for Eto'o's 4-goal night last season and as I was sitting in the stands the chatter around me centered around "we're not seeing anything like this again". Well, we just did, and in the CL quarterfinals.

Again, after tonight, I'm just glad to be a soccer fan, colors be damned.
 
Originally Posted by NIMFH


At this point, I think it's pointless to engage in any kind of "best ever" talk. This man is too damn young for us to name him that, although I do believe that in the past 18 months Messi has shown the best form any
player has ever shown in such a stretch of time.

What I'd like to say tonight, and I won't be adding anything else, is that for the first time in my soccer-watching life I am thankful to be watching somebody play. I am partial to Barça and watched this game in Barcelona surrounded by Gunner fans, and the feeling after Messi's first strike was that something magical was about to happen. After the second goal, the Brits were pretty much talking themselves into a "what can you do?" mentality, and by the third they were openly admiring the work of Messi. I was there too for Eto'o's 4-goal night last season and as I was sitting in the stands the chatter around me centered around "we're not seeing anything like this again". Well, we just did, and in the CL quarterfinals.

Again, after tonight, I'm just glad to be a soccer fan, colors be damned.
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Well said. 
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I felt the same way at some points watching Ronaldinho in 2005-2006 as well, but maybe not the extent of watching Messi today every time the ball came to his feet. You had the feeling that something magical was about to happen, and it did damn near every time. 
 
Messi was on some other level today. Barely catching the replay as I type.

Unfortunately for me the inevitable happened and my two favorite squads are meeting in the next round, but my allegiance lies with Inter in these head-to-head matches.

Should be a great match between the two.

El Pupi is the man, a legend and a class act. With his leadership we can only hope to beat the all mighty Barca.
 
Originally Posted by Keepie Uppie

with the form he's in right now,i can't wait to see Arsenal get murked at the Nou Camp...
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i told you so.



*waits for Arsenal fans and their Wenger-like excuses*
 
What today really showed me is how good Song is. Messi was a ghost of himself in the first leg. Arsenal were just missing too many players to have a shot. I'd really love to see them play each other at full strength. Don't get me wrong, I still think Barcelona would at least be the favorites, but we were missing Gallas, Van Persie, Fabregas, Song, Arshavin, and Ramsey. That's half of our starting 11. Granted Barca were shorthanded too, but we were missing what I would call 5 of our 6 or 7 best players.

Inter-Barca is the championship match. I just don't think any of the other 4 can beat them, especially without Rooney. Not that its out of the question, I mean Lyon did quiet Madrid, I just don't see it happening.

I'll be pulling for Inter just because the Barca bandwagon is getting overwhelming. Thierry got his, now i don't give a crap about them. Messi is a phenom, but I don't find their football to be that beautiful. They just hold possession and pass it around the back 4 half of that time. Go Nerrazzuri.
 
Originally Posted by Keepie Uppie

Originally Posted by Keepie Uppie

with the form he's in right now,i can't wait to see Arsenal get murked at the Nou Camp...
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i told you so.



*waits for Arsenal fans and their Wenger-like excuses*
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I can't wait to see what excuse Ferguson makes when United get waxed by Bayern tomorrow.

I don't condone a lot of the way Wenger acts, but act like SAF is any better. At least Wenger comes up with original material instead of criticizing the officiating every match.
 
Originally Posted by hoosiers4life

I can't wait to see what excuse Ferguson makes when United get waxed by Bayern tomorrow.
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chill,bro...you sure that's gonna happen?the teams haven't even started their pre-match warm-ups yet...
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I've been watching Messi play since he got called up and it was very evident from that time, he was going to be special. Even during the glory era of Ronaldinho at Barca, the more Messi played and performed, the clearer it was becoming Dinho would soon be dethroned. His understanding of spacing is phenomenal, and his dribbing is second to none. I read somewhere recently describing Messi as "Maradona on steroids", which is a pretty on point description. Aside from the precision placement of shots, magnetic dribbling, and creativity, one aspect completely overlooked is his passing. He makes passes that very few would even try, let alone make CONSISTENTLY, just like like that screaming left shot missile that starts  from the right side corner to the center of the box that inevitably ends up in the back of the net.
The one area that I felt he lacked last year was his physical play. Defenders used to push him around and knock him off the ball, but not no more. Though another sport, Messi's play reminds me of Iverson's. Messi looks for contact, often to help him bounce off his defenders, and even in bigger clashes, he springs up from the ground so fast and balanced that he's able to resume play while the defender is still on the ground. He seems to be 3 moves ahead of everyone.

The leadership aspect is irrelevant. There are plenty of all time greats in all of sports that do not exhibit that traditional leadership role of rallying up the troops, and providing motivation with words. I'm not sure he will ever be that kind of player, as he is reserved and doesnt strike me as outspoken. But when you play the way he does, that is leadership in itself that should not be questioned. To a certain extent, this also applies to international play. The WC is a vary peculiar tournament that often comes down more to tactic than individual play. If his career stays on track, he vary well has 3 and maybe even and outside chance of 4 WC's left, and I feel a solid tournament will only further cement his place amongst the greats.

I feel a sense of defensiveness when a talent the likes of Messi comes along, because it will undoubtedly mean putting him among the elite: your fav. soccer player, your idol, the one you thought could never be surpassed, has met their match. That's the type of talent you are witnessing, folks. Enjoy it while it lasts. What you saw tonight was not a a night when all the stars aligned, a performance for the ages, or even the pinnacle of a young and brilliant career...this is just another night in a career of a player for the ages. %*$@, it isn't even the best game he has had in the last month. Put your biases aside, and recognize it for what it is, kiddos....greatness.
 
Can't wait to see how Berbatov loses the game for Manchester tomorrow.
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And I have zero sympathy for Arsenal, they had their chances and blew it. Bendtner was too slow with the ball on one chance, missed an easy header another time, Walcott had two wide open players to his left when he hit the post with his shot, and Clichy had no reason to shoot when he had attackers in support on the left and right. That was the difference in the game to me. Barca (Messi) was lethal at every chance, Arsenal was the opposite and almost messed up the goal they did score as well.
 
Just saw the highlights.. Incredible performance, I also feel lucky to be able to watch matches like this
 
Originally Posted by PersiaFly

Can't wait to see how Berbatov loses the game for Manchester tomorrow.
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i hope he doesn't start,but that would mean playing the match with no strikers...

Kiko Macheda on his own upfront?ehh...
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Ponder this. Let's say when it's all said and he never wins a world cup but he murders the competition in l:a Liga and the UEFA for years to come. He has to be considered one of, if not the greatest off all time. Argentina being run by an ex coke head isn't really reassuring to those sacrificing their full time careers. Being in the world cup is an honor, but when u have players second guessing the man at the helm has to get u thinking it could be better. Let's not forget Argentina got in the WC with the luck of a four leaf clover. It won't be an upset to see them getting eliminated early when you consider who is on charge. If Messi keeps this pace up for a few years he's going down as the greatest of all time. %!$* what anybody else tells me.

Between all this bickering amongst us we must agree on one thing. He's only 22 and he's light years ahead of those before him for his age. I understand Carlos Tevez said lets talk about this in 5 years, but with the way Messi is plating, we might crown him the GOAT after the 2014 world cup.

P.S. I have a hunch Messi is gonna shine in the Olympics in two years from now. Its no world cup, but nobody brings their B squad to that dance
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