Derrick Rose or Chris Paul? Who do you take?

[gangsta207therevolution]

abovelegit1 wrote:

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dland24 wrote:

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amel223 wrote:

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That wasn't a mess of a response.  Read the content and not how it was structured 

The content?  Which part?  The part how he says Rose has turnovers because the ball is always in his hands?  As if other PGs dont?  Or the part where he says Chris Paul cant win a game by himself?  Or the parts where he says Rose's game is nastier?  Scarier?  His whole post was full of witty adjectives and excuses.  That is all.
Yup. Whenever a Rose fan-boy asserts that Rose is better than Chris Paul it's always supported by arbitrary nonsense and pretend scouting.




And when people assert that Chris Paul is the best PG
They fail to note that hes the worst on ball defender at PG
His teams never win (suddenly basketball is a team sport again)
He cannot create his own shot

Paul is the most efficent at his position, but his team needs more than Steve Nash 2.0 same ole **%! to win. And unlike the Suns the Hornets can win with Paul using more posessions and scoring more.  (and that comparison is actually valid.)
Advanced statistics mean something within the realm of evaluating a player. But when your comparing an alpha dog vs a cat. Those personalities affect a team differently.
The cat is always going to try and make the correct basketball play and win or lose deep down is going to be satisfied with his performance. Hes going to blame management for not having enough talent ( even though every new player has been virtually hand picked by Paul for the past 4 years. ( Im giving him a break on Peja) He will blame the balky knee brace he is forced to wear because HE decided to let James Andrews remove one of the meniscus in his knee which he had no business tearing, because he wanted to prove just how "compeititive" he was.
The alpha dog ( and there is maybe 5 in the league now). Durrant, Kobe, Rose, Wade and maybe Westbrook.
Is always going to work to silence the critics, play through pain and is going to give his all in attempting to win.
Does he make in correct basketball plays? Yup. Does he sometimes take too many shots? Yup. Is his personality always condusive to winning titles? Nope. But hes going to go down swinging even if it means demanding a trade (Kobe) that really doesnt improve his chances at winning a title.

As for Paul...

Now hes an undersized underwilled stat padding PG who's in basketball terms someone elses bottom.... That doesnt mean hes a bad person. It doesnt mean hes a bad player. It means that now in addition to you having to scheme to get Paul in position to score. You have to account for the fact Paul knows he cannot lead his team to a title. For all that "competitive fire" ( aka dirty play) he displays he knows that he thinks he needs to play with not 1, but 2 superstars.
On the basketball side for New Orleans
The correct move would have been to trade Paul for Billups and other pieces and rebuilt long term with DC at the point
Your finanical situation dictated that you couldnt do that. You still will not do that now that the league is in charge.

But I finally ( slightly beyond the superficial reason of being friends) do understand why a Lebron or a Melo would want to play with Paul, and I understand why Lebron is not a Chicago Bull. And that was worth the time it took me to type this out.

 

[gangsta207therevolution]

abovelegit1 wrote:

---

dland24 wrote:

---

amel223 wrote:

---

That wasn't a mess of a response.  Read the content and not how it was structured 

The content?  Which part?  The part how he says Rose has turnovers because the ball is always in his hands?  As if other PGs dont?  Or the part where he says Chris Paul cant win a game by himself?  Or the parts where he says Rose's game is nastier?  Scarier?  His whole post was full of witty adjectives and excuses.  That is all.
Yup. Whenever a Rose fan-boy asserts that Rose is better than Chris Paul it's always supported by arbitrary nonsense and pretend scouting.




And when people assert that Chris Paul is the best PG
They fail to note that hes the worst on ball defender at PG
His teams never win (suddenly basketball is a team sport again)
He cannot create his own shot

Paul is the most efficent at his position, but his team needs more than Steve Nash 2.0 same ole **%! to win. And unlike the Suns the Hornets can win with Paul using more posessions and scoring more.  (and that comparison is actually valid.)
Advanced statistics mean something within the realm of evaluating a player. But when your comparing an alpha dog vs a cat. Those personalities affect a team differently.
The cat is always going to try and make the correct basketball play and win or lose deep down is going to be satisfied with his performance. Hes going to blame management for not having enough talent ( even though every new player has been virtually hand picked by Paul for the past 4 years. ( Im giving him a break on Peja) He will blame the balky knee brace he is forced to wear because HE decided to let James Andrews remove one of the meniscus in his knee which he had no business tearing, because he wanted to prove just how "compeititive" he was.
The alpha dog ( and there is maybe 5 in the league now). Durrant, Kobe, Rose, Wade and maybe Westbrook.
Is always going to work to silence the critics, play through pain and is going to give his all in attempting to win.
Does he make in correct basketball plays? Yup. Does he sometimes take too many shots? Yup. Is his personality always condusive to winning titles? Nope. But hes going to go down swinging even if it means demanding a trade (Kobe) that really doesnt improve his chances at winning a title.

As for Paul...

Now hes an undersized underwilled stat padding PG who's in basketball terms someone elses bottom.... That doesnt mean hes a bad person. It doesnt mean hes a bad player. It means that now in addition to you having to scheme to get Paul in position to score. You have to account for the fact Paul knows he cannot lead his team to a title. For all that "competitive fire" ( aka dirty play) he displays he knows that he thinks he needs to play with not 1, but 2 superstars.
On the basketball side for New Orleans
The correct move would have been to trade Paul for Billups and other pieces and rebuilt long term with DC at the point
Your finanical situation dictated that you couldnt do that. You still will not do that now that the league is in charge.

But I finally ( slightly beyond the superficial reason of being friends) do understand why a Lebron or a Melo would want to play with Paul, and I understand why Lebron is not a Chicago Bull. And that was worth the time it took me to type this out.

 

[thesimplestlife]

Thank you ...

Some of you guys on Niketalk think that people need to write in an essay format in order for the content to be readable. Give me a break, it's the internet!

Amel and gangsta were eluding to my point. Rose had much more responsibility than CP3 in the beginning of the season. He had to be the playmaker and the top scorer (before Boozer got back). This is why his turnovers were high. When the clock would run down, who would the Bulls give the Ball to:Rose. If he is always handling the ball, don't you think he would mess up a couple of times, especially in pressure situations. CP3 doesn't have this responsibility, that's why I said he's more of a traditional guard. Rose is like a mixture of a Point and Shooting guard, partly because he has to play that way or else the Bulls would suck. I can't honestly see why people would pick CP3 over Rose, I mean I just don't see it.

Derrick Rose is also bigger,stronger and faster than CP3. I know that shouldn't really have anything to do with comparing, but it does help his game tremendously.

Also about all those adjectives I was using:

Is Rose's game not nasty? Seriously, the boy is amazing. He is quite possibly the best finisher at the hoop at the moment.

Rose does nothing better than CP3? No way in hell does CP3 drive as well as Rose, no way. At the rim, Rose can finish with either hand equally.

You honestly think CP3 can win a game by himself like Rose can? Really. Derrick Rose beat the Lakers in Chicago by himself and also did the same against Rockets in Houston. Have you not seen Rose end games in the fourth where he just goes off. I'm not so sure Paul can do this. Like I said before, switch them. Just do it in your head. You can't honestly sit here and tell me the Bulls would be better with CP3 and the Hornets would be worse with Rose. No way, the Bulls would need more scoring. Now the Hornets would actually be better or be around the same position they are now. You know why. Well, because if Paul dribbles and passes better than Rose, it's really not by that much. But Rose has much more of an offensive game than Paul. Rose isn't a greedy player. With the attention he draws, I'm sure he would be able to find Emeka or West wide open.

If you feel Paul is better, well w/e. Honestly, a lot of people feel this way. But, Rose to me, is something else. The guy plays with virtually no emotion on his face, and goes on the court every night to bust a**. It's crazy that at the moment, if the All star game were to start today, he wouldn't be a starter.

 

[thesimplestlife]

Thank you ...

Some of you guys on Niketalk think that people need to write in an essay format in order for the content to be readable. Give me a break, it's the internet!

Amel and gangsta were eluding to my point. Rose had much more responsibility than CP3 in the beginning of the season. He had to be the playmaker and the top scorer (before Boozer got back). This is why his turnovers were high. When the clock would run down, who would the Bulls give the Ball to:Rose. If he is always handling the ball, don't you think he would mess up a couple of times, especially in pressure situations. CP3 doesn't have this responsibility, that's why I said he's more of a traditional guard. Rose is like a mixture of a Point and Shooting guard, partly because he has to play that way or else the Bulls would suck. I can't honestly see why people would pick CP3 over Rose, I mean I just don't see it.

Derrick Rose is also bigger,stronger and faster than CP3. I know that shouldn't really have anything to do with comparing, but it does help his game tremendously.

Also about all those adjectives I was using:

Is Rose's game not nasty? Seriously, the boy is amazing. He is quite possibly the best finisher at the hoop at the moment.

Rose does nothing better than CP3? No way in hell does CP3 drive as well as Rose, no way. At the rim, Rose can finish with either hand equally.

You honestly think CP3 can win a game by himself like Rose can? Really. Derrick Rose beat the Lakers in Chicago by himself and also did the same against Rockets in Houston. Have you not seen Rose end games in the fourth where he just goes off. I'm not so sure Paul can do this. Like I said before, switch them. Just do it in your head. You can't honestly sit here and tell me the Bulls would be better with CP3 and the Hornets would be worse with Rose. No way, the Bulls would need more scoring. Now the Hornets would actually be better or be around the same position they are now. You know why. Well, because if Paul dribbles and passes better than Rose, it's really not by that much. But Rose has much more of an offensive game than Paul. Rose isn't a greedy player. With the attention he draws, I'm sure he would be able to find Emeka or West wide open.

If you feel Paul is better, well w/e. Honestly, a lot of people feel this way. But, Rose to me, is something else. The guy plays with virtually no emotion on his face, and goes on the court every night to bust a**. It's crazy that at the moment, if the All star game were to start today, he wouldn't be a starter.

 

[gob]

Offensively:

Paul = Rose.

Defensively:

Paul >>> Rose.

Paul wins.

 

[gob]

Offensively:

Paul = Rose.

Defensively:

Paul >>> Rose.

Paul wins.

 

[thesimplestlife]

no...

Offensively

Paul <<<< Rose

Defensively

I really don't know..you guys say Paul, but Rose matches up better with PGs big and small and he gets more blocks.

Like Amel and I said, IF Paul is better at defense it's not by that much. But Rose is an offensive powerhouse. So the edge goes to Rose.

 

[thesimplestlife]

no...

Offensively

Paul <<<< Rose

Defensively

I really don't know..you guys say Paul, but Rose matches up better with PGs big and small and he gets more blocks.

Like Amel and I said, IF Paul is better at defense it's not by that much. But Rose is an offensive powerhouse. So the edge goes to Rose.

 

[gob]

Rose:

PPG: 24.0
REB: 4.8
ASSiST: 8.5
TO: 3.8
FT%: 76.4
3PT%: 39.3
FG%: 45.5

Paul:

PPG: 16.5
REB: 4.5
ASSIST: 9.9
TO: 2.4
FT%: 91.0
3PT%: 46.4
FG%: 49.6

So out of the 7 offensive categories I listed, Paul takes 5 out of 7.. The only thing Rose has on him is points, which is very important.. but point guards are supposed to distribute the ball, not shoot as often as he does, so you can understand why his PPG are higher.. I realize Rose is the #1 option in Chicago, that's wonderful.. but to say he's better than Paul offensively is ridiculous. They are more or less equal, Paul is just more efficient at the position.

Paul wins.

 

[gob]

Rose:

PPG: 24.0
REB: 4.8
ASSiST: 8.5
TO: 3.8
FT%: 76.4
3PT%: 39.3
FG%: 45.5

Paul:

PPG: 16.5
REB: 4.5
ASSIST: 9.9
TO: 2.4
FT%: 91.0
3PT%: 46.4
FG%: 49.6

So out of the 7 offensive categories I listed, Paul takes 5 out of 7.. The only thing Rose has on him is points, which is very important.. but point guards are supposed to distribute the ball, not shoot as often as he does, so you can understand why his PPG are higher.. I realize Rose is the #1 option in Chicago, that's wonderful.. but to say he's better than Paul offensively is ridiculous. They are more or less equal, Paul is just more efficient at the position.

Paul wins.

 

[N41D]

The only people that really, truly think Rose is better are Bulls fans. That's it. And that should tell you something.

 

[N41D]

The only people that really, truly think Rose is better are Bulls fans. That's it. And that should tell you something.

 

[gob]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

The only people that really, truly think Rose is better are Bulls fans. That's it. And that should tell you something.

/threaded.

 

[gob]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

The only people that really, truly think Rose is better are Bulls fans. That's it. And that should tell you something.

/threaded.

 

[compton781]

Derrick Rose, if I need someone to score

Chris Paul, if I need a typical point guard who assists more than scores

 

[compton781]

Derrick Rose, if I need someone to score

Chris Paul, if I need a typical point guard who assists more than scores

 

[thesimplestlife]

Gob-
Like I was saying, Rose takes more shots than Paul, so of course his FG% (Including 3ptrs) will be lower than Paul's. Iverson's fg% was low some years because he had to take the shots in Philly, is he not one of the greatest to do it? Kobe Bryant's fg percentage is around 44%, is he not better than Paul. (I know they don't play the same positions, but come on)...like gangsta said..Rose is an alpha dog who sometimes takes more than his share of shots. But's that mainly because, his team always want him to bail them out when the pressure is on.

Rose has more of an impact on the floor than Paul.

^^Compton- You see that stat line. Chris Paul has 9.9 assists while Derrick Rose has 8.5. I have a feeling his assists are going to  at least raise by 1 because of Boozer. So yes, take Derrick Rose if you want offense, but I'm also saying if you need a passing PG he can do that too. But you can't say the same for Paul. He'll make his mark by dishing to others, while Derrick can do it both ways.

Now, getting back to those turnovers..

You know who leads the league in turnovers? Rondo..
You know why? No, it's not beacause he can't handle the ball, but because he always has the ball in his hands. He sets everything up. This is the same reason why I said Derrick Rose has a high amount of turnovers.

See the thing is, Rose is so much more than the stats. If you've seen him play you can vouch for that.

 

[thesimplestlife]

Gob-
Like I was saying, Rose takes more shots than Paul, so of course his FG% (Including 3ptrs) will be lower than Paul's. Iverson's fg% was low some years because he had to take the shots in Philly, is he not one of the greatest to do it? Kobe Bryant's fg percentage is around 44%, is he not better than Paul. (I know they don't play the same positions, but come on)...like gangsta said..Rose is an alpha dog who sometimes takes more than his share of shots. But's that mainly because, his team always want him to bail them out when the pressure is on.

Rose has more of an impact on the floor than Paul.

^^Compton- You see that stat line. Chris Paul has 9.9 assists while Derrick Rose has 8.5. I have a feeling his assists are going to  at least raise by 1 because of Boozer. So yes, take Derrick Rose if you want offense, but I'm also saying if you need a passing PG he can do that too. But you can't say the same for Paul. He'll make his mark by dishing to others, while Derrick can do it both ways.

Now, getting back to those turnovers..

You know who leads the league in turnovers? Rondo..
You know why? No, it's not beacause he can't handle the ball, but because he always has the ball in his hands. He sets everything up. This is the same reason why I said Derrick Rose has a high amount of turnovers.

See the thing is, Rose is so much more than the stats. If you've seen him play you can vouch for that.

 

[N41D]

Chris Paul ain't an Alpha Dog and doesn't take over games? Ugh...

He's playing hurt this year. It's obvious. The last three years he's been the best point guard in basketball and he's averaged north of 20 points a game while shooting nearly 50% from the field. And while averaging comfortably over 10 dimes a game...

Talking about their offensive games aren't close but their defensive abilities are... Stupid.

 

[N41D]

Chris Paul ain't an Alpha Dog and doesn't take over games? Ugh...

He's playing hurt this year. It's obvious. The last three years he's been the best point guard in basketball and he's averaged north of 20 points a game while shooting nearly 50% from the field. And while averaging comfortably over 10 dimes a game...

Talking about their offensive games aren't close but their defensive abilities are... Stupid.

 

[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

Originally Posted by Gob

Rose:

PPG: 24.0
REB: 4.8
ASSiST: 8.5
TO: 3.8
FT%: 76.4
3PT%: 39.3
FG%: 45.5

Paul:

PPG: 16.5
REB: 4.5
ASSIST: 9.9
TO: 2.4
FT%: 91.0
3PT%: 46.4
FG%: 49.6

So out of the 7 offensive categories I listed, Paul takes 5 out of 7.. The only thing Rose has on him is points, which is very important.. but point guards are supposed to distribute the ball, not shoot as often as he does, so you can understand why his PPG are higher.. I realize Rose is the #1 option in Chicago, that's wonderful.. but to say he's better than Paul offensively is ridiculous. They are more or less equal, Paul is just more efficient at the position.

Paul wins.

And all the while he is doing that and being oh so efficient, he lets his team lose. So who cares? Take more shots then. Take over the games late so you don't lose all the damn time. I'd rather go down with my best player trying and perhaps sometimes forcing action than shooting like 11 shots and passing to chuckers who aren't expected to be that type of takeover the game player, nor paid in such a way. I mean look at the next 3 yrs of his contract. Horrendous. I'm giving you 47 mil over the next 3 seasons, win me some games. *$%*, you're the best shooter, shoot more. The other PGs all in the discussion, minus Rondo, have found the balance to score upwards of 20 pts while still averaging less than 2 less assists than Paul, so the 2 things are not that mutually exclusive.

Give me Rose.
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[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$16,359,805[/font]
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[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$17,779,457[/font]
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[dwele farooq al suleed afzul]

Originally Posted by Gob

Rose:

PPG: 24.0
REB: 4.8
ASSiST: 8.5
TO: 3.8
FT%: 76.4
3PT%: 39.3
FG%: 45.5

Paul:

PPG: 16.5
REB: 4.5
ASSIST: 9.9
TO: 2.4
FT%: 91.0
3PT%: 46.4
FG%: 49.6

So out of the 7 offensive categories I listed, Paul takes 5 out of 7.. The only thing Rose has on him is points, which is very important.. but point guards are supposed to distribute the ball, not shoot as often as he does, so you can understand why his PPG are higher.. I realize Rose is the #1 option in Chicago, that's wonderful.. but to say he's better than Paul offensively is ridiculous. They are more or less equal, Paul is just more efficient at the position.

Paul wins.

And all the while he is doing that and being oh so efficient, he lets his team lose. So who cares? Take more shots then. Take over the games late so you don't lose all the damn time. I'd rather go down with my best player trying and perhaps sometimes forcing action than shooting like 11 shots and passing to chuckers who aren't expected to be that type of takeover the game player, nor paid in such a way. I mean look at the next 3 yrs of his contract. Horrendous. I'm giving you 47 mil over the next 3 seasons, win me some games. *$%*, you're the best shooter, shoot more. The other PGs all in the discussion, minus Rondo, have found the balance to score upwards of 20 pts while still averaging less than 2 less assists than Paul, so the 2 things are not that mutually exclusive.

Give me Rose.
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[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$14,940,152[/font]
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[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$16,359,805[/font]
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[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$17,779,457[/font]
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[thesimplestlife]

^^^ Thank you!

This is the same problem I have with Nash. Everyone says Nash's shot is water, he hardly ever misses..(I also think he has a very reliable shot, one of the best in the league.)
But why doesn't he shoot more ? Especially since his team is sub-par now with Amar'e gone(they really need buckets ). Why? Because he a PG, and that's not what PGs are supposed to do? Come on! Great Players do what it takes to win. I'm not saying Nash isn't great, but I feel he needs to implement shooting more into his game.

What position does Lebron James play? He is supposedly a small forward but he plays more like a guard. Does this mean that since he doesn't play like a small forward, there are small forwards better than him in the league? No, of course not.

As stated before, Rose is a PG who plays like a mixture of a PG and a SG, similar to A.I.(just the other way around) I'm not saying he's better than A.I. or that it's even close, I'm just saying that's how he plays. Is Paul a better PG then, since he plays more traditionally. Well, to me no, but to some yes. But is Rose a better player, Yes.

 

[thesimplestlife]

^^^ Thank you!

This is the same problem I have with Nash. Everyone says Nash's shot is water, he hardly ever misses..(I also think he has a very reliable shot, one of the best in the league.)
But why doesn't he shoot more ? Especially since his team is sub-par now with Amar'e gone(they really need buckets ). Why? Because he a PG, and that's not what PGs are supposed to do? Come on! Great Players do what it takes to win. I'm not saying Nash isn't great, but I feel he needs to implement shooting more into his game.

What position does Lebron James play? He is supposedly a small forward but he plays more like a guard. Does this mean that since he doesn't play like a small forward, there are small forwards better than him in the league? No, of course not.

As stated before, Rose is a PG who plays like a mixture of a PG and a SG, similar to A.I.(just the other way around) I'm not saying he's better than A.I. or that it's even close, I'm just saying that's how he plays. Is Paul a better PG then, since he plays more traditionally. Well, to me no, but to some yes. But is Rose a better player, Yes.

 

[everysingletime]

Originally Posted by Nowitness41Dirk

The only people that really, truly think Rose is better are Bulls fans. That's it. And that should tell you something.

You need to do more reading.  And some of these people going for Rose are never in the bulls thread.