Economist predict the end of Capitalism and the Fall of America...

Originally Posted by MARTIN AND CO

LazyJ, I didn't mean to come off as rude, if I did I apologize.

I think people confuse myself and NM because we both speak a certain European language and we're both from Pennsylvania. He's from Pittsburgh, I'm not. I can't take anyone seriously who's materialistic and obnoxious lifestyle is funded by his well educated parents, and when people my screen names its a bit annoying to be honest, but I've learned not to care more or less.

Anyway, I understand entirely where you're coming from in regards to the freedom bit, but try starting a company anywhere else in the world where there isn't a 1st world capitalistic society. Here in the USA if you wanted LazyJ10, you could this very day go out and start a toothbrush company that perhaps helps people better clean their teeth, and the market decides if you fail or not. I see financial service firms as parasites to capitalism (yet they are seen as the purest form of it). They are pretty much entirely responsible for this mess, and yet its only they who can get us out of it to an extent. Also to be clear, I think I remember you being an accountant, and just to be clear I mean investment banks(and some retail)/private equity, etc more so than anything else. They don't create anything, just leach off of the trading of companies and assets that do (bud fox's father in wall street said it best). And yet, they are so necessary to fund companies' growth and development. Just like lawyers, I guess. They can protect the evil but also uphold justice...

edit:

My thoughts are not at all based on Jacque Fresco's work (mentioned here as the venus project), but he embodies my emotions on our existence pretty well...
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Nah, not rude, not even a big deal...I just see you postso infrequently and "retired", if you will.
Access to capital for capitalism is an overlooked variable often missed when applying the "rules" of capitalism. The notion that one can set up abusiness in the USA because they have a idea used to be an underlying fundamental. Now larger barriers of entry prevent this, and therefore they're noteven in the game of capitalism to determine if they win or lose. They've lost for the most part.

Financial firms are certainly exploiting the system for their own gain at the expense of others, however, they are just gaming the system created by aquasi-gov't entity, shills, puppets and others. Firms in other industries certainly do this, just to a lesser extent.

They've been blamed too much, because they're easy to blame especially given how vogue Wall Street is.

The government should have never, ever, gotten involved in trying to fund the American Dream. They had no business in trying to sell home ownership. You cansee the reminents now, where people are illegally profiting on the stupid $8,000 tax credit. When easy money is available, it gets abused. That was afundamental blunder by the government and easily one of the roots of the problem.

In terms of the financial sector, they provide a service, so by your example, service industries may be considered "exempt" from capitalism. However,they take on risk (sometimes exuberant) and technically harness skills and intangibles that people are willing to pay for (in various forms). It's likethe survival of the fittest, if you can't produce something of value (perceived, intangible, or tangible) that someone wants, you should be eliminated. The government hides behind the "too big to fail" scenario too much, however, you know damn well they hold GS stock.
 
I guess its true I rarely post. It's because I seem to have very few common interests with this board (although that's not fair at all). I just comeback out of habit and for entertainment, but I don't collect gym shoes (and only wear them in the gym) like I'm sure a lot don't. I'mconstantly browsing, though.


I don't mean to over-simplify stating a corporation at all. How one acquires capital is his own problem, be it an inheritance, hard work, partnering withsomeone, etc. I'm not saying there's nothing holding back a high school drop-out with no parents, no money, and no education, from becoming the nextBill Gates, but hey, life isn't fair. I work so hard to build capital and yet in college there were people who never did a hard day's labor in theirlives, yet they stand to inherit more than I can ever make working hard ( I don't like to say this just because I don't like to set self-imposedlimitations but whatever) and all they have to do is either stay alive in their high-on-coke state till they're 28 or get married, and they're paid.

Barriers to entry exist for many reasons, and those that "make it" are all to glad they're there. Any venture capital or private equity fundprefers to invest specifically in companies belonging to industries or segments of industries with high barriers to entry. I'm sure you know all this ofcourse.

If you look at most companies however, you see that they were funded by a man/woman and a dream, nothing more. Nike was founded by a bunch of "regularguys" who probably had no idea what their impact would be (not saying its a good impact at all though), and they're successful. Barriers to entry keepthem where they are, and at the same time those barriers empowered them to get to where they are now.


One of the reasons I brought up human nature is illustrated in exactly what you said about financial companies playing the system. People think that by"changing system" of upsetting the current establishment, they can change these injustices, but the assumption that humans are decent is a flaw thatis evident in our genetic make-up that will flourish in certain individuals in any system. Why do we have locks on our doors and security systems in our homes,cars, etc.,? Its because because the human will exhibit his greed if given the chance. Petty theft like taking money out of a peoples car (and people thinkwhat kind of decent person would do that? )usually stems from people not having enough and following their instinct to survive, but what do you call thesefinancial thefts by individuals that are in the Billions of dollars? Just pure, unadulterated greed. Its just human nature. These people are in positions ofinfallibility, where no one can question what they do. There's nothing that separates the pension fund/komsomol fund/industrial factory income diversionthefts in "communist"/socialist USSR from these investment frauds taking place within Investment banks today. Different systems, same human greed.


I do agree that you can, by my previous example, interpret that service industries are exempt from capitalism, and if I were to reply by saying that certainservices assist in furthering the creation of value, as you described it, this would also be true of Investment banks. They DO help businesses expand and grow.

Its essentially the double-edged sword of freedom. It enables the extremes of both the good and the bad, but since these relative concepts of good and bad arethe actions of people with free will, how can you possibly try to curtail human nature? "Bad" should be prevented prevented and punished but its alla very fine line. Accounting firms can help streamline a company's cash flow or they can help conceal a massive accounting fraud that's detrimental tomany people and their families. This isn't only about services, guns are products and yet they kill AND protect. I guess everything in its end form is justa service, the service industry is just when something isn't "in house". A car just provides the service of getting you from a to b. A car isjust a product. Yet a car service or taxi company is just the product, outsourced. You can say the apparel industry provides you a service that keeps you warmor keeps you looking good.

Blackstone was the military, outsourced. And what happened in a lot of cases was the same as with wall st. Deregulation allowing some (big emphasis on some)people to show their true colors of their really disgusting existence.

But hey, I'm not judging anyone. Like I said in the big picture of the universe, we're all just amoebas regardless of our actions or status...
 
In essence, we haven't seen a true execution of Marxist principles.
That is what I say when people start talking about socialism as Marx envisioned it and whatever they think they know about it. How can you knowwhen it has never occurred?

China and Russia are not examples of it
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I am sympathetic to the arguments made by communists. It is true that Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels saw communism rising up more as organic process then asrevolution that would replace one tyrant with another. It is also true that the peasant societies of Russia and China were not the ideal settings forcompletely pure Marxism to take hold. I could see communism, the dream like rule of the proletariat one day being viable. Just like humanity has or is in theprocess of throwing off other force based and sadistic behaviors like slavery, human sacrifice, imperialism, wide spread use of capital punishment, corporalpunishments, restrictions on a free press, restrictions on religious freedom, genocide and political violence, perhaps one a system of private property thatrequires force to counter act thieves, who also apply force.

As humanity evolves in its social structures and empathy and mutual cooperation continues on its path of growth, it is conceivable that the extreme outcome ofthat would be such great empathy that people are willing to work hard and consume less for the sake of the least productive people in a society. I do have mydoubts though, because a complete lack of violence of sadism could also be boon for market oriented economies because without predatory government or thugs aswell egos and our unwillingness to fully communicate with strangers transaction costs, transportation costs and wealth lost to rent seeking would be virtuallyzero. Furthermore, if mankind do become perfectly social then state funded social services would not be needed nor would they be able to be funded throughtaxation. Private charity could be robust enough so that we would have a market economy but everyone would be cared for to the utmost.

Also, even if human norms do drastically evolve (which is very much possible BTW), the same structural problem for communism remains, a lack of a price system.Even if we could build the perfect socialist man, we could only substitute for two or the three things that makes capitalism work. A perfectly altruisticperson could solve the problem of lack of private property because he would treat state owned property as carefully as he would his own. The lack of a profitand loss system could be overcome by altruism because the director of a state owned firm would self monitor himself and use his resources just as judiciouslyas someone who owns his own firm in our own society today.

What altruism cannot solve is the lack of prices that emerge in a market. In order to use his resources as effectively as possible, the new socialist man wouldstill have to know what people want as well be made aware of the current levels of scarcity for his own input and his potential inputs. Without prices, thedynamic results of the collective thinking of millions of people making decisions under conditions of scarcity, emerging, resources and productive activity andconsumption cannot be coordinated.

My sympathy is not unlimited because there are always some obstacles to any ism being fully and completely implemented so in many ways we have to look at howsystems perform under less than optimal conditions. The fact that so system has every been completely communist nor completely capitalist also requires carefulanalysis to see what works and what does not. It is actually because of this more sophisticated analysis that I see market driven economics performing betterthan command economics, when they are the law or the land.

In the USA, those parts of our economy that are less market driven and driven more by edicts and central power tend to be the least efficient. The Post Office,the health insurance market (which is highly regulated to block competition), banking (which had the benefit for the Central Bank which could create money andtax people through inflation as well as implicit guarantees from the Treasury, which has the power of the IRS to collect taxes), the Military (they do a greatjob in the field but it is notoriously expensive), public schools (in communities where they compete with private, they do it better and usually for less moneyand the opposite is true whenever parents cannot afford private school and the schools have monopoly power).

In sectors of the economy where there is are less subsides, barriers to entry and other market distortions and anti competitive protections from government,costs fall and quality rises. In markets like those for furniture, personal electronics, computers, automobiles, kitchen appliances, homes (not the mortgagemarket but actual home construction), clothing, food and retailing we see a smaller and smaller bite being taken from personal incomes with each passingdecade.

In what we called communist societies, those regions or sectors of the economy that were market that were almost or at least partially free from governmentmicro management tended to be the most successful, sometimes vital elements of the economy of those countries. In both Russia, a few years after therevolution, Lenin relented on his campaign of collectivism and liberalized agriculture, he gave each family an more or less equal parcel of land and let themgrow what they wanted based on prices. The Russian Rural economy flourished and the countryside was once against productive ( Another interesting outcome ofthis natural experiment was that within a couple of years, the holdings of land started to concentrate into the hands of a minority of peasants. The fact thateveryone started on level playing field shows that at least part of the success of at least some wealthy people is based on exceptional levels of work, thriftand initiative and that not all differences in income or wealth can be reduced under oft used banner of "Privilege"). This situation also occurred inChina where person Garden, about 10% of the farm land started to produce up to about 40% of the nation's agricultural GDP. China also performed its ownnatural economic experiment by allowing two provinces greater economic freedom than the rest of the Country and the GDP per capita grew at a much faster ratethan did that of the other provinces.

All of those things like cheaper food, cleaner houses, cleaner bodies, cheaper cars, cheap paper and pencils, cheap music, cheap computers are all luxuriesthat were once unknown and for many people living in the work, beyond their imagination. These things, many of which are so ubiquitous that thy go unnoticedall represent real progress and while spending less on all sorts of needed but mundane things our lives become happier, longer, safer and more enjoyable isless cathartic then revolution, the gradual but steady dissolution of the curse of Adam (having the toil for all that we have) is far more revolutionary thanany thing that we can do with guns.



Cliff Notes: Even under ideal conditions, communism will fail because of its lack of price system. Even if communism arose has Marx had predicted, among theworkers in the Industrialized parts of the World, human nature would be detrimental to collective ownership because human beings currently do not care forcommon property as they would their own and within being able to take home profits nor suffer due to losses, those collective firms do not have strongincentives to be as efficient as they could be and that causes resources to be squandered across the economy.

What is even worse is that if people trained themselves to be completely altruistic, they would still be plagued by the informational problem of not havingprices that emerge in the market. Prices are, as we in the Hayekian tradition are taught, signals that emerge from decision making that takes place underconditions of scarcity. With prices consumers will self ration especially scarce goods and.or substitute in favor of less care goods and producers are toldthrough price what consumers like and they go about producing those goods using the least scarce inputs that they can use. As long as there is competitionamong producers, those gains in efficiency primarily go to consumers. Dynamic pricing is something that no purely socialist system, no matter how welldesigned, no matter how competent its leaders and no matter how determined and diligent and altruist it is people may be, can duplicate.
 
Some good info in here...

Just out of curiosity, Rex and MARTIN.... what did/do you guys study inschool?

Also, I like this post right here:

mjd77 wrote:
As the middle class continues to wither away, so will America. Continuing corporate greed is just making the process faster. When times are good, why not give your employees $1-2 more per hour instead of the CEO pocketing a $20 million bonus that he doesn't need anyway. When times are bad, why not start cutting at the top where the people can more easily absorb it rather than cutting the ones at the bottom that will be hurt the most? Im not sure there are enough decent wealthy people left to reverse the dangerous trend. The snowball effect is hard to stop. Hope the greedy bastards realize that when it gets to the point of .1% of the poulation having 99.9% of the wealth, the money is worthless.
 
YouTube the fall of the republic by alex jones....

It just dropped a couple days ago ... Everything about us capitalism is right there.. The future will be bleek
 
Capitalism demands a free society as well as involved and intelligent participants who actually care enough to make it function in a fair manner.
A free society by definition is capitalist but freedom comes at the price of being vigilant and involved.

Americans thought that they could sit back, watch sports, American idol , and the weekly TV series and everything would be alright. It doesn't work thatway.
The problem is not Communism, Capitalism, Marxism, etc. The problem is corruption as a result of apathy in a free society. Many societies are corrupt becausethey are run by oppressive/ dictatorial regimes. American society became corrupt because of apathy.
 
Originally Posted by wawaweewa

The problem is corruption as a result of apathy in a free society. Many societies are corrupt because they are run by oppressive/ dictatorial regimes. American society became corrupt because of apathy.

Yep.
 
Originally Posted by HOVKid

Obama will fix this
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Oh, my bad....he actually takes money from these horrible Wall Street execs when fundraising........

Obama will SAY he'll fix this and win a prize for fixing it before he does.
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same dude who thinks Tax Cuts, tax cuts and tax cuts fix the economy..
 
Wow, glad to see a lot of enlightened people in here and also glad to see that it wasn't made into a repub vs dem debate. It's pretty much obvious tothe intelligent community that the parties are just used as a distraction and that they are all chill and are friendly behind closed doors.

I follow Elliott Wave theory for the stock market and I like that because it is able to measure the cycles of human emotions and the public sentiment. Backwhen Dow was at about 6500 or so everyone was bearish and that was the sentiment needed to send the market on a 7 month rally. It's time for the end ofthat rally. It might've happened already or within a few weeks. It's crazy because the best EW counter is calling this next down leg a P3...morepowerful than that last leg down. This is a multi year thing. I think his target is under 4600 on Dow. Just crazy and you have to listen to the guy when hejust made a 500k futures bet that it was about to fall before DOW shaved about 8k points. P3 is catastrophic..."too big to fail" just isn't thecase anymore. Big names dropping like flies.

It's not looking up, because historically economic collapse is followed by major war. I think dollar about to take off since everybody is talking about adollar fail, but after this bubble, it will probably be SDR's.

Just make sure you don't fall for the propaganda of joining any military...you don't want to be the disposable chess pieces of the big boys.
 
America's top 1% own more than 90% of America's wealth


didnt read all of it. was watchin rage against the machines "sleep now in the fire" and it said somethin along the lines of this, wasmade in 1999 too.
sounds good 2 me. hope all tha native americans get their land back.
 
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