Ichiro in pursuit of.....Eckstein?

[justhotkicks]

Ichiro easily surpasses the 200-hit mark every season, but he's averaged only 175 non-infield hits per 162 games through his career. Of those 177 hits, 43were for extra bases. Some averages for other notable players (non-infield hits/extra-base hits per 162 games):

Albert Pujols - 187/88
Alex Rodriguez - 172/81
Manny Ramirez - 175/81
Chase Utley - 168/75
Derek Jeter - 180/55
David Wright - 177/74
Jose Reyes - 165/63
Michael Young - 183/59
Chipper Jones - 170/71

Yes, we know Ichiro is not a power hitter, but I just named a few of our contemporary stars that perform similarly when it comes to pure hits but surpass himwhen it comes to extra-base hits, so he is in no way one of the greatest hitters of all time. If we're talking about hitting, then we're talking aboutability to hit to all fields, not about infield hits and speed. Lets say Ichiro didn't have his speed. If those infield hits ended up as routine grounders,his career batting average would sit at .277.

Ichiro's a good hitter but one of the greatest when it comes to getting infield hits and using his strengths. His 262-hit single-season record willprobably stand for a long time. He truly is a unique player but I can easily name 30 current players that i'd rather have on my team.

I remember Castillo's streak. He was sitting on an 0-for day but the game extra innings. He was on deck for another opporunity but the hitter preceding him(probably Juan Pierre) won the game on a walk-off hit

. As for ToddHelton, he still hit .300 away from Colorado.

 

[daglove20]

Originally Posted by NY41101

Originally Posted by daglove20

^^ Woah woah the 2007 Yankees team is in no comparison to a losing Mariners team, I wish it was but for sure is not. I always ask this, you take away Ichiro, and put A-Rod on this M's team, you think they're gonna goto the playoffs? I'm not taking away anything from A-Rod or Jeter but they had plenty of help from teammates where Ichiro clearly has not. Besides that A-Rod and Manny lost some credibility as great hitters as they got caught cheating. He doesn't have many RBI's this year due to his team's low run production but in the past he's gotten 69, 68 RBI's which isn't bad for a leadoff hitter.

Bro in 2001 Ichiro had plenty of help in his lineup 1B John Olerud 2B Bret Boone AVG .331 37HRS 141 RBI's RF Jay Buhner DH Edgar Martinez CF Mike cameron 3B Carlos Guillen etc. they won 116 games that yr and got dominated by the Yankees in the American League Championship series. Ichiro simply isnt a winner. Japan wins the WBC not because there better but because they are just finishing their season win the WBC starts and the players on team USA have been on vacation for 4+ months and most MLB teams dont even allow their best players to compete for fear of injury and if they do compete there i plenty of restrictions especially to their Pitchers get it straight bro Davey Johnson was limited to what he could do. The players in Japan arent better than the Player is the US. Damn met my post limit

In 2001 he was AL MVP, I see your point but my point is this, trade Ichiro, for any player, Pujols, A-Rod, whoever, and put him on this Marinersand on the Mariners team in 2001, are the Mariners a winner then? I highly doubt it. I'm not trying to attack anyone on this thread as the one greatthing about baseball is you can argue many points even though it is the statistical game. But still I think baseball is absolutely a team sport, and winningdoes bring better light upon a player, that said tho there's no way you can judge a single player upon his whole team winning and losing. Nevermind thesteroids part but that's like saying Barry Bonds wasn't a great hitter because he doesn't have a ring. I dunno but I happen to think if Ichiro wasa Yankee or Red Sox or any other contender that'll at least double their chances of winning a title.

BTW Japan's season ends in October so I don't know what you're referring to there, but I believe your argument backs up my point about winning. Your point is that the U.S. didn't win because it didn't have it's best players, well does that mean Jeter, Rollins, Wright aren't goodhitters/players and not winners? No because they've won in the past in the MLB just like Ichiro has with team Japan and in Japanese baseball. I canunderstand the argument that he's not considered one of the "greatest" hitters in the game because he doesn't hit the long-ball but Idon't think you can judge a player's hitting ability because his team is not winning.

 

[CP1708]

Finns, sorry I was gone over the weekend, I woulda loved to have still been in here.

You asked me about Gwynn on page 4. That man could flat out rake, when you talk about Ichiro being a great hitter, vs Gwynn being a great hitter it is NOTEVEN CLOSE. Do you have any idea what Tony's average would be if he was fast? They'd never be able to get that guy out and it was hard enough even asslow as he was. Gwynn could hit any pitch and place it damn near perfectly out in the outfield. He could pull, go the other way, gap em, once in a while takeout deep. He just couldn't hit choppers to the shortstop and pick up "cheapy's". He'd hit .400 if he coulda done that. He also workedevery pitcher and made them throw extra pitches, fouled pitches off, gave the hitters behind him chances to see his stuff. Really, if you want to compare orcontrast Ichiro, never mention Gwynn, it's that far off.

I think everyone else has done a good job in here, I just wanted to answer you about Gwynn is all.

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Finns, sorry I was gone over the weekend, I woulda loved to have still been in here.

You asked me about Gwynn on page 4. That man could flat out rake, when you talk about Ichiro being a great hitter, vs Gwynn being a great hitter it is NOT EVEN CLOSE. Do you have any idea what Tony's average would be if he was fast? They'd never be able to get that guy out and it was hard enough even as slow as he was. Gwynn could hit any pitch and place it damn near perfectly out in the outfield. He could pull, go the other way, gap em, once in a while take out deep. He just couldn't hit choppers to the shortstop and pick up "cheapy's". He'd hit .400 if he coulda done that. He also worked every pitcher and made them throw extra pitches, fouled pitches off, gave the hitters behind him chances to see his stuff. Really, if you want to compare or contrast Ichiro, never mention Gwynn, it's that far off.

I think everyone else has done a good job in here, I just wanted to answer you about Gwynn is all.

You're right about Tony Gwynn being a much more complete hitter than Ichiro... but I think you gotta clarify Gwynn's lack of speed. Heactually had above average speed early in his career, he stole 56 bases one season (which is also Ichiro's career high) at a 82% success rate. People thinkof Gwynn as a slowpoke because his speed had diminished rapidly by his early 30's (probably magnified by his slow metabolism). It's probably becauseGwynn was in his mid 30's when he had his amazing stretch of 5 consecutive season batting .350 or better.

I agree with what your point about Tony Gwynn making pitchers work... his career BB/K ratio is 1.82, Ichiro's is 0.72 BB/K. Gwynn only struck out 4.2% ofthe time, which is way less often than Ichiro (8.8%). In fact Tony Gwynn's career worst is 40 K's in a season

Ichiro's career best is 53 K's.

But the real difference is Tony Gwynn hit for extra-base power. He had 49 doubles one year and had 3 seasons with an OPS greater than .950 (including a 1.022OPS season). Ichiro's career high OPS is .869 and he had an OPS below .800 in 4 of his 8 MLB seasons (including a very pedestrian .747 OPS last year). Youhave to go back all the way to 1976 (a pitching dominated era) to find an MVP with a lower OPS than Ichiro's .838 in 2001.

 

[CP1708]

^
Nice work Juan.

Don't know what half them stats mean, but I'm sure they're great.

And as I've said before, Ichiro's MVP was a fluke and nothing more then the media being hyped up about dude and not actually paying close attention. Seeing the 200 hits and runs and SB's are all fine and dandy, but they didn't really look closely at his performance. He's a lot like Nash. (Relax Osh, not bashing, only comparing.)

Just saw Jon's comment earlier in this thread.

Hilarity.

 

[651akathepaul]

Still going huh? I thought this thread would've been dead by now.

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by CP1708


And as I've said before, Ichiro's MVP was a fluke and nothing more then the media being hyped up about dude and not actually paying close attention. Seeing the 200 hits and runs and SB's are all fine and dandy, but they didn't really look closely at his performance. He's a lot like Nash. (Relax Osh, not bashing, only comparing.)

I agree... the media was mesmerized with the Mariners 116-win season after they were predicted to struggle with A-Rod's departure to Texas.Most people fail to realize that the Mariners pitching was largely responsible for all those wins. They led the majors in Team ERA... quite a feat for an ALteam.

Jamie Moyer went 20-6 with a 3.43 ERA in 209.2 IP, Freddy Garcia went 18-6 with a 3.05 ERA in 238.2 IP, and Aaron Sele of all people went 15-5 with a 3.60 ERAin 215.0 IP... quite the career year. Kaz Sasaki, Arthur Rhodes, Jeff Nelson, Norm Charlton, and Ryan Franklin all turned in fantastic seasons out of thebullpen. It's really amazing that so many Mariners pitchers had career years at the same time.

Most of the other big performances in the AL that year were by now-known (or obvious) users of performance enhancing drugs... Giambi, Bret Boone, A-Rod, JuanGone, and Manny. So I would've went with either Roberto Alomar (113 runs, 20 HR, 100 RBI, 30 SB, .336 avg, .956 OPS) or Jim Thome (101 runs, 49 HR, 124RBI, 111 BB, .291 avg, 1.040 OPS) both from the 1st place Indians as 2001 AL MVP.

 

[uter zorker]

Aaron Rowand gunning for DiMaggio

 

[john ohh]

^ hes at 17 games now?

 

[daglove20]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Finns, sorry I was gone over the weekend, I woulda loved to have still been in here.

You asked me about Gwynn on page 4. That man could flat out rake, when you talk about Ichiro being a great hitter, vs Gwynn being a great hitter it is NOT EVEN CLOSE. Do you have any idea what Tony's average would be if he was fast? They'd never be able to get that guy out and it was hard enough even as slow as he was. Gwynn could hit any pitch and place it damn near perfectly out in the outfield. He could pull, go the other way, gap em, once in a while take out deep. He just couldn't hit choppers to the shortstop and pick up "cheapy's". He'd hit .400 if he coulda done that. He also worked every pitcher and made them throw extra pitches, fouled pitches off, gave the hitters behind him chances to see his stuff. Really, if you want to compare or contrast Ichiro, never mention Gwynn, it's that far off.

I think everyone else has done a good job in here, I just wanted to answer you about Gwynn is all.

I'm not trying to disagree with you about Gwynn because he is definitely a great hitter, but Ichiro is not that far off. Ichiro knows hisstrength, which is hit the ball on the ground or a line drive and not try to swing for power because he knows if he puts the ball in play he can leg out manyhits. You can't argue his speed against him because if he put on a few more pounds like Gwynn it's possible he could've the been the exact samehitter Gwynn was with less hits but more power. Gwynn was a great hitter and I see your point about seeing pitches and working them, but in the end Ichiroshould have more career hits and his single season hit record will probably stand for a long long time. That's my arguement that Ichiro is comparable toGwynn.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by daglove20

Originally Posted by CP1708

Finns, sorry I was gone over the weekend, I woulda loved to have still been in here.

You asked me about Gwynn on page 4. That man could flat out rake, when you talk about Ichiro being a great hitter, vs Gwynn being a great hitter it is NOT EVEN CLOSE. Do you have any idea what Tony's average would be if he was fast? They'd never be able to get that guy out and it was hard enough even as slow as he was. Gwynn could hit any pitch and place it damn near perfectly out in the outfield. He could pull, go the other way, gap em, once in a while take out deep. He just couldn't hit choppers to the shortstop and pick up "cheapy's". He'd hit .400 if he coulda done that. He also worked every pitcher and made them throw extra pitches, fouled pitches off, gave the hitters behind him chances to see his stuff. Really, if you want to compare or contrast Ichiro, never mention Gwynn, it's that far off.

I think everyone else has done a good job in here, I just wanted to answer you about Gwynn is all.

I'm not trying to disagree with you about Gwynn because he is definitely a great hitter, but Ichiro is not that far off. Ichiro knows his strength, which is hit the ball on the ground or a line drive and not try to swing for power because he knows if he puts the ball in play he can leg out many hits. You can't argue his speed against him because if he put on a few more pounds like Gwynn it's possible he could've the been the exact same hitter Gwynn was with less hits but more power. Gwynn was a great hitter and I see your point about seeing pitches and working them, but in the end Ichiro should have more career hits and his single season hit record will probably stand for a long long time. That's my arguement that Ichiro is comparable to Gwynn.

I'm thinking you didn't watch Gwynn much when he played, am I right?

That dude was sick with a bat in his hands. Imo he and Ted are the two best in the box the game has ever seen. With Pujols quickly getting ready to join thatgroup. (If Pujols remains clean).

Most of Ichiro's "hits" are grounders to short that he beats out. Gwynn's are legit hits that he placed somewhere where the defensewasn't. Obviously, he got his share of bloops, and legged a few out now and then, and all that, but his whole career worth those type hits is probably onestandard season of Ichiro cheapies. See what I'm sayin?

It's not that close at all. I don't care about total hits, # of hits, any of that. A lot of that has to do with Ichiro getting 750 plate appearancesin a given season.

Bottom line, Ichiro is not in Tony Gwynn company. At all.

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by Uter Zorker

Aaron Rowand gunning for DiMaggio

Among current MLB players, I actually like another Giant as one of the best equipped to challenge Joe D.

Pablo Sandoval has Vlad-like plate coverage and ability to hit pitches out of the strike zone hard. And like Vlad he swings at just about everything, butdoesn't strike out very often. However, Kung Fu Panda isn't exactly a speed demon and the Giants lineup as a whole doesn't get on base enough(lowest team OBP in the NL) to consistently turnover enough to get 4-5 plate appearances every game.

Dustin Pedroia probably has the best makeup/situation. He makes contact with 92.2% of the pitches he swings at (6th best in MLB this year, 3rd best in 2008,and 6th best in 2007) and he's deceptively quick. He works the count and rarely strikes out. He's also a great line drive hitter (he led MLB in doubleslast year) and plays in a great park for a right-handed line driver hitter... hit 'em off the Green Monster. Finally, the imposing Red Sox lineup allowsPedroia get plenty of plate appearance per game... and he bats near the top of the order, so it's unlikely he'll come up in situations where thepitcher would nibble or pitch around him.

Another AL East 2B would be a good candidate, too. But Robinson Cano hardly ever bats near the top of the order. At least he's advanced up to the 5th spotthis year.

But the media scrutiny either would receive due to playing in such large baseball-crazy markets might really weigh on them if they got close to Joe D. Althoughthe other way to look at it is the experience playing in those markets day-in day-out might have prepared them for anyhting the media can throw at them.

 

[daglove20]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by daglove20

Originally Posted by CP1708

Finns, sorry I was gone over the weekend, I woulda loved to have still been in here.

You asked me about Gwynn on page 4. That man could flat out rake, when you talk about Ichiro being a great hitter, vs Gwynn being a great hitter it is NOT EVEN CLOSE. Do you have any idea what Tony's average would be if he was fast? They'd never be able to get that guy out and it was hard enough even as slow as he was. Gwynn could hit any pitch and place it damn near perfectly out in the outfield. He could pull, go the other way, gap em, once in a while take out deep. He just couldn't hit choppers to the shortstop and pick up "cheapy's". He'd hit .400 if he coulda done that. He also worked every pitcher and made them throw extra pitches, fouled pitches off, gave the hitters behind him chances to see his stuff. Really, if you want to compare or contrast Ichiro, never mention Gwynn, it's that far off.

I think everyone else has done a good job in here, I just wanted to answer you about Gwynn is all.

I'm not trying to disagree with you about Gwynn because he is definitely a great hitter, but Ichiro is not that far off. Ichiro knows his strength, which is hit the ball on the ground or a line drive and not try to swing for power because he knows if he puts the ball in play he can leg out many hits. You can't argue his speed against him because if he put on a few more pounds like Gwynn it's possible he could've the been the exact same hitter Gwynn was with less hits but more power. Gwynn was a great hitter and I see your point about seeing pitches and working them, but in the end Ichiro should have more career hits and his single season hit record will probably stand for a long long time. That's my arguement that Ichiro is comparable to Gwynn.

I'm thinking you didn't watch Gwynn much when he played, am I right?

That dude was sick with a bat in his hands. Imo he and Ted are the two best in the box the game has ever seen. With Pujols quickly getting ready to join that group. (If Pujols remains clean).

Most of Ichiro's "hits" are grounders to short that he beats out. Gwynn's are legit hits that he placed somewhere where the defense wasn't. Obviously, he got his share of bloops, and legged a few out now and then, and all that, but his whole career worth those type hits is probably one standard season of Ichiro cheapies. See what I'm sayin?

It's not that close at all. I don't care about total hits, # of hits, any of that. A lot of that has to do with Ichiro getting 750 plate appearances in a given season.

Bottom line, Ichiro is not in Tony Gwynn company. At all.

No I saw Tony Gwynn play a lot as I have lived in the Bay Area my whole life and I'm unfortunately a pretty old guy now

. And again I don't disagree with you on Gwynn, but Ichiro is up there andwill be up there when he enters on the HOF. Ichiro does have a lot of hits and some are infield hits, a little less than 1/4 (averages about 49 infield hits aseason) but the vast vast majority are hard ground balls and line drives. Now would he get those hits if he didn't run as fast, or slow as Gwynn? Probably not I'll give you that but my point he does have the speed, and that's something you can't use to argue against him. He knows what typeof player he is and uses that to his advantage. And even with 700+ plate appearances not many players would rack up 200+ hits and hit over .300, and only oneplayer has his 262 hits and he also did hit .372 that year, how many players would hit .372 with 700+ plate appearances? Now the one thing I think we can bothagree upon is that it's sad Gwynn and Ichiro aren't and weren't in the postseason much at all, I was sad when the Padres virtually gave upSheffield and Mcgriff.

BTW maybe we will see our theories about speed tested as he gets older and loses a step let's see what type of hitter he becomes. Be interesting to see ifhe changes his style to take more walks or work more pitches and or concentrates on hitting for more power.

 

[d0nt w0rry about it]

Originally Posted by daglove20

No I saw Tony Gwynn play a lot as I have lived in the Bay Area my whole life and I'm unfortunately a pretty old guy now

. And again I don't disagree with you on Gwynn, but Ichiro is up there and will be up there when he enters on the HOF. Ichiro does have a lot of hits and some are infield hits, a little less than 1/4 (averages about 49 infield hits a season) but the vast vast majority are hard ground balls and line drives. Now would he get those hits if he didn't run as fast, or slow as Gwynn? Probably not I'll give you that but my point he does have the speed, and that's something you can't use to argue against him. He knows what type of player he is and uses that to his advantage. And even with 700+ plate appearances not many players would rack up 200+ hits and hit over .300, and only one player has his 262 hits and he also did hit .372 that year, how many players would hit .372 with 700+ plate appearances? Now the one thing I think we can both agree upon is that it's sad Gwynn and Ichiro aren't and weren't in the postseason much at all, I was sad when the Padres virtually gave up Sheffield and Mcgriff.

the san diego padres organization disagrees that they gave up sheffield for nothing due to this man being in the deal:

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by daglove20

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by daglove20

Originally Posted by CP1708

Finns, sorry I was gone over the weekend, I woulda loved to have still been in here.

You asked me about Gwynn on page 4. That man could flat out rake, when you talk about Ichiro being a great hitter, vs Gwynn being a great hitter it is NOT EVEN CLOSE. Do you have any idea what Tony's average would be if he was fast? They'd never be able to get that guy out and it was hard enough even as slow as he was. Gwynn could hit any pitch and place it damn near perfectly out in the outfield. He could pull, go the other way, gap em, once in a while take out deep. He just couldn't hit choppers to the shortstop and pick up "cheapy's". He'd hit .400 if he coulda done that. He also worked every pitcher and made them throw extra pitches, fouled pitches off, gave the hitters behind him chances to see his stuff. Really, if you want to compare or contrast Ichiro, never mention Gwynn, it's that far off.

I think everyone else has done a good job in here, I just wanted to answer you about Gwynn is all.

I'm not trying to disagree with you about Gwynn because he is definitely a great hitter, but Ichiro is not that far off. Ichiro knows his strength, which is hit the ball on the ground or a line drive and not try to swing for power because he knows if he puts the ball in play he can leg out many hits. You can't argue his speed against him because if he put on a few more pounds like Gwynn it's possible he could've the been the exact same hitter Gwynn was with less hits but more power. Gwynn was a great hitter and I see your point about seeing pitches and working them, but in the end Ichiro should have more career hits and his single season hit record will probably stand for a long long time. That's my arguement that Ichiro is comparable to Gwynn.

I'm thinking you didn't watch Gwynn much when he played, am I right?

That dude was sick with a bat in his hands. Imo he and Ted are the two best in the box the game has ever seen. With Pujols quickly getting ready to join that group. (If Pujols remains clean).

Most of Ichiro's "hits" are grounders to short that he beats out. Gwynn's are legit hits that he placed somewhere where the defense wasn't. Obviously, he got his share of bloops, and legged a few out now and then, and all that, but his whole career worth those type hits is probably one standard season of Ichiro cheapies. See what I'm sayin?

It's not that close at all. I don't care about total hits, # of hits, any of that. A lot of that has to do with Ichiro getting 750 plate appearances in a given season.

Bottom line, Ichiro is not in Tony Gwynn company. At all.

No I saw Tony Gwynn play a lot as I have lived in the Bay Area my whole life and I'm unfortunately a pretty old guy now

. And again I don't disagree with you on Gwynn, but Ichiro is up there and will be up there when he enters on the HOF. Ichiro does have a lot of hits and some are infield hits, a little less than 1/4 (averages about 49 infield hits a season) but the vast vast majority are hard ground balls and line drives. Now would he get those hits if he didn't run as fast, or slow as Gwynn? Probably not I'll give you that but my point he does have the speed, and that's something you can't use to argue against him. He knows what type of player he is and uses that to his advantage. And even with 700+ plate appearances not many players would rack up 200+ hits and hit over .300, and only one player has his 262 hits and he also did hit .372 that year, how many players would hit .372 with 700+ plate appearances? Now the one thing I think we can both agree upon is that it's sad Gwynn and Ichiro aren't and weren't in the postseason much at all, I was sad when the Padres virtually gave up Sheffield and Mcgriff.

BTW maybe we will see our theories about speed tested as he gets older and loses a step let's see what type of hitter he becomes. Be interesting to see if he changes his style to take more walks or work more pitches and or concentrates on hitting for more power.

I will be interested to see how his hitting changes when his speed slows. Good point.

Looking, I just noticed that he hit a lot more home runs in Japan. Why is that? Do they have smaller parks? In fact, looks like he hits a LOT more extrabase hits over there.

This guy gets 50 extra base hits a year, we have players in the majors who hit 50 doubles AND 50 homers in a season, and Ichiro is some great?

1500 out of his 1800+ hits are singles. Come on. That is just plain ridiculous to throw a single slapper out there as one of the greatest hitters of alltime. Let's be real here.

 

[jch3]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by daglove20

Originally Posted by CP1708

Finns, sorry I was gone over the weekend, I woulda loved to have still been in here.

You asked me about Gwynn on page 4. That man could flat out rake, when you talk about Ichiro being a great hitter, vs Gwynn being a great hitter it is NOT EVEN CLOSE. Do you have any idea what Tony's average would be if he was fast? They'd never be able to get that guy out and it was hard enough even as slow as he was. Gwynn could hit any pitch and place it damn near perfectly out in the outfield. He could pull, go the other way, gap em, once in a while take out deep. He just couldn't hit choppers to the shortstop and pick up "cheapy's". He'd hit .400 if he coulda done that. He also worked every pitcher and made them throw extra pitches, fouled pitches off, gave the hitters behind him chances to see his stuff. Really, if you want to compare or contrast Ichiro, never mention Gwynn, it's that far off.

I think everyone else has done a good job in here, I just wanted to answer you about Gwynn is all.

I'm not trying to disagree with you about Gwynn because he is definitely a great hitter, but Ichiro is not that far off. Ichiro knows his strength, which is hit the ball on the ground or a line drive and not try to swing for power because he knows if he puts the ball in play he can leg out many hits. You can't argue his speed against him because if he put on a few more pounds like Gwynn it's possible he could've the been the exact same hitter Gwynn was with less hits but more power. Gwynn was a great hitter and I see your point about seeing pitches and working them, but in the end Ichiro should have more career hits and his single season hit record will probably stand for a long long time. That's my arguement that Ichiro is comparable to Gwynn.

I'm thinking you didn't watch Gwynn much when he played, am I right?

That dude was sick with a bat in his hands. Imo he and Ted are the two best in the box the game has ever seen. With Pujols quickly getting ready to join that group. (If Pujols remains clean).

Most of Ichiro's "hits" are grounders to short that he beats out. Gwynn's are legit hits that he placed somewhere where the defense wasn't. Obviously, he got his share of bloops, and legged a few out now and then, and all that, but his whole career worth those type hits is probably one standard season of Ichiro cheapies. See what I'm sayin?

It's not that close at all. I don't care about total hits, # of hits, any of that. A lot of that has to do with Ichiro getting 750 plate appearances in a given season.

Bottom line, Ichiro is not in Tony Gwynn company. At all.

You know this guy is telling the truth because I agree with him and he's a Cub (and Laker) fan.

Looking at both players as HITTERS only, it isn't close. Gwynn would have batted .400 if he had any speed, at all.

But looking at both players just as what they are, Ichiro's speed makes up for a lack of power.

 

[finnns2003]

gwynn was amazing, i know my baseball. i also know that ichiro is a more complete player, with a superb arm and great range in the outfield. but that's foranother day.


he'll be the first Japanese player in the HOF, and will continue to amaze. i wonder though, if ichiro played for a big market team, how much people'sperceptions of him would change.

 

[airjordanseattle23]

the amount of ichiro haters on niketalk never ceases to amaze me.

 

[CP1708]

AirJordanSeattle23 wrote:

---

the amount of ichiro haters on niketalk never ceases to amaze me.



This just makes no sense to me right here. What are there, 10 or less of us in here coming with good information, not slandering the guy, just talkin aboutdifferent hitters, and we're haters?

What does a Chicago Cubs fan have to hate on Seattle for? Or an Indian fan? Or a Blue Jay fan? Or a Cardinals fan?

You talk like there's any NON Mariner fans in here agreeing with Ichiro's greatness. Everyone in here defending dude is a Mariner fan, does that nottell you something?

Unbelievable, anytime someone says something against ones team, they're a hater now? On a message board? We supposed to all chime in with"co-sgin" to whatever a thread starter says? What great discussion that would make for huh?

 

[kingfoamnyc]

Lol at finns using ichiro's WBC performance to validify his point of him being "the greatest hitter of all time" lol sir you are a fool. Younorthwest guys drink a little bit too much of the ichiro kool-aid. I totally understand though because he is the only bright spot in any of your terribleprofessional sport franchises

 

[airjordanseattle23]

Originally Posted by CP1708

AirJordanSeattle23 wrote:

---

the amount of ichiro haters on niketalk never ceases to amaze me.

This just makes no sense to me right here. What are there, 10 or less of us in here coming with good information, not slandering the guy, just talkin about different hitters, and we're haters?

What does a Chicago Cubs fan have to hate on Seattle for? Or an Indian fan? Or a Blue Jay fan? Or a Cardinals fan?

You talk like there's any NON Mariner fans in here agreeing with Ichiro's greatness. Everyone in here defending dude is a Mariner fan, does that not tell you something?

Unbelievable, anytime someone says something against ones team, they're a hater now? On a message board? We supposed to all chime in with "co-sgin" to whatever a thread starter says? What great discussion that would make for huh?

iv been on this forum for the better part of the decade(beginning of 01) and iv seen alot of anti ichiro comments over the years. was justpointing that out.

 

[CP1708]

^
Ok, that's fair enough, but not in this thread.

Well, maybe that KingFoamNYC was a little hate filled.

But everyone else has been clean.

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by KingFoamNYC

Lol at finns using ichiro's WBC performance to validify his point of him being "the greatest hitter of all time" lol sir you are a fool. You northwest guys drink a little bit too much of the ichiro kool-aid. I totally understand though because he is the only bright spot in any of your terrible professional sport franchises

what a fool you are. i used that to validate that he is not a 'loser' as he's been labeled. he's been the victim of horribleplayer personnel decisions. northwest? sorry for your ridiculous, stupid, despicable assumptions but i don't live in the NW. matter fact, i'm also adolphins fan and live on the east coast. feeling ridiculous yet? no worries, you should be used to it!

and let's not get on terrible professional sports franchises. are you a knicks fan? jets fan?

 

[briannnnn]

Originally Posted by Juan Baller

Originally Posted by Uter Zorker

Aaron Rowand gunning for DiMaggio

Among current MLB players, I actually like another Giant as one of the best equipped to challenge Joe D.

Pablo Sandoval has Vlad-like plate coverage and ability to hit pitches out of the strike zone hard. And like Vlad he swings at just about everything, but doesn't strike out very often. However, Kung Fu Panda isn't exactly a speed demon and the Giants lineup as a whole doesn't get on base enough (lowest team OBP in the NL) to consistently turnover enough to get 4-5 plate appearances every game.

Dustin Pedroia probably has the best makeup/situation. He makes contact with 92.2% of the pitches he swings at (6th best in MLB this year, 3rd best in 2008, and 6th best in 2007) and he's deceptively quick. He works the count and rarely strikes out. He's also a great line drive hitter (he led MLB in doubles last year) and plays in a great park for a right-handed line driver hitter... hit 'em off the Green Monster. Finally, the imposing Red Sox lineup allows Pedroia get plenty of plate appearance per game... and he bats near the top of the order, so it's unlikely he'll come up in situations where the pitcher would nibble or pitch around him.

Another AL East 2B would be a good candidate, too. But Robinson Cano hardly ever bats near the top of the order. At least he's advanced up to the 5th spot this year.

But the media scrutiny either would receive due to playing in such large baseball-crazy markets might really weigh on them if they got close to Joe D. Although the other way to look at it is the experience playing in those markets day-in day-out might have prepared them for anyhting the media can throw at them.

He did bat second once or twice but only because the usual #2 hitter, Johnny Damon, was given the day off.

 

[juan baller]

Originally Posted by daglove20

Originally Posted by CP1708

Finns, sorry I was gone over the weekend, I woulda loved to have still been in here.

You asked me about Gwynn on page 4. That man could flat out rake, when you talk about Ichiro being a great hitter, vs Gwynn being a great hitter it is NOT EVEN CLOSE. Do you have any idea what Tony's average would be if he was fast? They'd never be able to get that guy out and it was hard enough even as slow as he was. Gwynn could hit any pitch and place it damn near perfectly out in the outfield. He could pull, go the other way, gap em, once in a while take out deep. He just couldn't hit choppers to the shortstop and pick up "cheapy's". He'd hit .400 if he coulda done that. He also worked every pitcher and made them throw extra pitches, fouled pitches off, gave the hitters behind him chances to see his stuff. Really, if you want to compare or contrast Ichiro, never mention Gwynn, it's that far off.

I think everyone else has done a good job in here, I just wanted to answer you about Gwynn is all.

I'm not trying to disagree with you about Gwynn because he is definitely a great hitter, but Ichiro is not that far off. Ichiro knows his strength, which is hit the ball on the ground or a line drive and not try to swing for power because he knows if he puts the ball in play he can leg out many hits. You can't argue his speed against him because if he put on a few more pounds like Gwynn it's possible he could've the been the exact same hitter Gwynn was with less hits but more power. Gwynn was a great hitter and I see your point about seeing pitches and working them, but in the end Ichiro should have more career hits and his single season hit record will probably stand for a long long time. That's my arguement that Ichiro is comparable to Gwynn.

When arguing what makes a great hitter, you can certainly consider speed. You said it yourself, a large portion of Ichiro's hits are due tohis legs not his bat.

Ichiro is great at putting the ball in play. That's a part of hitting, but certainly not the only part of hitting. Otherwise, we'd be talking aboutDavid Eckstein and Luis Castillo as the greatest hitters of all time.

In my opinion, a great hitter is a complete hitter. Ichiro is not anywhere close to being a complete hitter, he's a one trick pony.

Originally Posted by CP1708


I will be interested to see how his hitting changes when his speed slows. Good point.

Looking, I just noticed that he hit a lot more home runs in Japan. Why is that? Do they have smaller parks? In fact, looks like he hits a LOT more extra base hits over there.

I don't think Ichiro's speed is going to slow that much... certainly not anything like the sharp decline that Tony Gwynn experienced. Ichiro is builtlike Kenny Lofton and Steve Finley... 2 guys that showed blazing speed well into their late 30's.


If you think the number of extra base hits in Japan is a lot... it's even distorted when you consider that their season is only 140 games, which is 22 lessgames than MLB.

The ballparks a slightly smaller and they're mostly domes. I'd say the real difference is the strike zone is narrower, especially away from thebatter... so you don't have to worry about not being able to do anything with pitches on the edge of the strike zone. Also, the pitching as a whole isbasically on the level of AAA, which coincidentally is where Kei Igawa (who led the Nippon League is strikeouts 3 times) is pitching now.

There are plenty examples of journeymen American players that fail to establish themselves as Major Leaguers going over to Japan and tearing it up in theNippon League. One you might know is Benny Agbayani... he hit 35 HR and batted .315 his first season in Japan after batting .234 in AAA the year before.

Tuffy Rhodes, who left American baseball after being unable to make an MLB roster at 27, has an active streak of 6 consective 40+ HR seasons... he's 40years old this season.

Randy Bass, who hit .212 in his brief MLB career, hit for the Triple Crown (led the league in batting averge, HR, and RBI) twice in the Nippon League and holdsthe single season record for batting average (.389). He arguably put up the best statistical seasons ever in Japan.