Ichiro in pursuit of.....Eckstein?

[finnns2003]

Just because I have time... A little comparison fun.

Jose Reyes in 2005 played in 161 games, and walked 27 times that season. he walked 53, 77, and 66 times the following seasons. so he averages 53 walks aseasons. ichiro averages walk totals around 48 or 49 a season. jose reyes also averages 80+ k's a season, ichiro only averages 66. i'll take 5 lesswalks and 14 less strikeouts a season.

Ichiro's career OBP is .377. Reyes? .337. That's a .040 difference, huge. This argument is already funny.

We won't even get to OPS andslugging percentage, Ichiro is right there with Reyes in both.

Rollins! Good ol' Jimmy Rollins with the .275 career BA. A career on base percentage .047 below Ichiro's. A lower OPS and a slugging percentage only.004 higher than Ichiro. Also averages less steals a season than Ichiro. Also strikes out a ton more. Next!

Pedroia? He hasn't played long enough to really analyze, but I will say dude's BA and steals are way below the threshold. So far this season Ichiro hasmore home runs, a much better average, and a much better slugging percentage.

Hanley and Soriano are great players, NL-style players imo, but it's good to see them playing well. Hard to argue with the numbers, but I'd put Ichiroright up there with them. Less power than them, but those guys also strikeout a ton more.

 

[CP1708]

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by CP1708

I already said, he's good at what he does, slapping the ball around, pickin up those singles. Not sure why that hurts so much, but obviously some people are bleedin over this.

But as stated, I listed a dozen or so that were/are better hitters, and thinking on it last night, I can add Frank Thomas as well. Anyhoo, when you are couting those countless 4-4 nights with 4 singles, and usually a loss, do you ever wonder why in a big moment in the 8th inning, the supposedly "hit homeruns when he wants too" Ichiro, doesn't in fact hit a home run? Why is that?

All those singles and steals he piles up 30 games under .500 don't impress me. And as stated previously, I live 3 hours from Seattle, it is the "local" team here in Oregon, which means radio coverage, tv coverage, newspaper coverage, the works. So rest assured, I've seen more then 6 games.

Face it, he's nice at what he does, but what he doesn't do is hit for power, take pitches/walks, doesn't lead his team to wins, he just goes out there everyday to get his 5 plate appearances, and get his 2 singles a night, steal a bag, lose the game, and then do it again the next day. Meanwhile you guys conitnue to worship him while even his own teammates question whether he just wants to "get his". Again, media coverage, there's a lot of talk out here. I hear lots.

Reyes, Rollins, Hanley, Soriano, Pedroia, all better lead off hitters, and guys I'd rather have on my team. And I'm sure I forgot one or two.

You continue to ignore the factors. Number one the guy is a leadoff hitter, what's with the obsession of homers? His job is to get on base, period. You mention that his stats come with the team '30 games below .500', but that just proves my point. He has absolutely no protection in the lineup. He's been playing with scrubs for a majority of his career. Vidro, Randy Winn, Beltre, Lopez, Betancourt, Aurilia, I don't care who you plug in, they've been awful.

Second point, leading a team to wins. I seem to remember baseball being a 'team' sport. If the guy is doing his job, what's the problem? Again, we're talking about a guy who's had a .350 BA four times in his nine year career. You sound like a majority of the critics who simply don't get it. Thinking he is all about padding his stats. Simply ridiculous. His teammates question him? Are you #@^$#&# kidding me? Guys like Carlos Silva who end up with ERA's as high as 7 or 8?? Or J.J. Putz who hasn't amounted to half of the ballplayer Ichiro is? I mean c'mon. His 'teammates' are the reason Seattle has missed the playoffs for eight seasons. Give me a list of who called him out, I'll give you ten reasons that player would've been gone on any other ballclub. Bavasi was a fool in his player personnel decisions, don't blame the one guy who went out every night and excelled.

jose reyes with his .286 BA? you'd rather have a guy who has hit .300 just twice since he's been in the majors, over a guy who's hit .303 or higher every year he's been in the league? pathetic, absolutely pathetic. ichiro has just as many MVP's and batting titles as all the guys you listed, or more.

We may or may not be aruging different things, I dunno, but my point is plain and simple, he's overrated. Why? Because people get hyped up and call himone of the greatest hitters of all time, when he is clearly not that. That = overrated to me.

Is he very good? Sure. Is he great at making contact at crazy angles? Yes. Does he get on base, sure. Are his numbers inflated? Yes, they are.

You can't say to back off of homeruns cuz he's a lead off hitter, and then praise him for getting on base, when that is what he is supposed to do. Hanley can hit homeruns. Sori can. Rickey did. They're all lead off hitters who put more pressure on a team then slapping a single in the hole.

Late in a game, runner on first base who would you rather face, the 3 lead off hitters I just mentioned who could do various things, or Ichiro who you knowwill just hit a single. This greatest hitter of all time crap should be able to hit the homerun, or at least a gapper late in games shouldn't he? Ifhe's so "great".

Do you see what I'm saying now? Saying how wonderful he is is fine, long as people aren't trying to put him up there with Ted, Pujols, Gwynn, Brett,Manny, Rose, etc etc etc THOSE are the greatest hitters of all time. (along with a few others) Ichiro is NOT in their category. Not even close.

Do you get where I'm comin from now?

Oh, and add Grady Sizemore, I'd take him before Ichiro in the leadoff spot too.

 

[daglove20]

^^ I see your point, but if you're gonna put Gwynn and Brett on that all time greatest hitters list there's no way you can say Ichiro is not evenclose, I can understand you saying maybe he's not on their level quite yet but not even close?. If he was a Red Sox or Yankee Ichiro would be mentioned inMVP races almost every year as he did when the Mariners were a contender. He is a game changer either way and I think a sure HOF'er. The other point Iwant to make people saying he doesn't lead his team to wins, my question is, put the other leadoff hitters mentioned on the current Mariners and let'ssee how many more wins they produce. And Sizemore? He is a great hitter and although this debate is purely about hitting...how many games has Ichiro missedcompared to some of the other leadoff hitter mentioned?

 

[d0nt w0rry about it]

i don't know if you should argue AGAINST ichiro suzuki not being worthy of being named alongside baseball greats when you name tony gwynn as an example..

..and this is coming from a lifelong padres fan.

if anyone in the MLB today mirrors tony gwynn's game at the plate, it's ichiro suzuki.

EDIT:
just to add on..

ichiro may not be on that level yet, but he could be there years from now. if his ability to make contact and get on base doesn't diminish years from nowthe same way gwynn's didn't, then i don't see any reason for ichiro not being able to be referred to as one of the all time greats when it'sall said and done.

 

[flatbush147]

i doubt he'll get to 56

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by CP1708

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by CP1708

I already said, he's good at what he does, slapping the ball around, pickin up those singles. Not sure why that hurts so much, but obviously some people are bleedin over this.

But as stated, I listed a dozen or so that were/are better hitters, and thinking on it last night, I can add Frank Thomas as well. Anyhoo, when you are couting those countless 4-4 nights with 4 singles, and usually a loss, do you ever wonder why in a big moment in the 8th inning, the supposedly "hit homeruns when he wants too" Ichiro, doesn't in fact hit a home run? Why is that?

All those singles and steals he piles up 30 games under .500 don't impress me. And as stated previously, I live 3 hours from Seattle, it is the "local" team here in Oregon, which means radio coverage, tv coverage, newspaper coverage, the works. So rest assured, I've seen more then 6 games.

Face it, he's nice at what he does, but what he doesn't do is hit for power, take pitches/walks, doesn't lead his team to wins, he just goes out there everyday to get his 5 plate appearances, and get his 2 singles a night, steal a bag, lose the game, and then do it again the next day. Meanwhile you guys conitnue to worship him while even his own teammates question whether he just wants to "get his". Again, media coverage, there's a lot of talk out here. I hear lots.

Reyes, Rollins, Hanley, Soriano, Pedroia, all better lead off hitters, and guys I'd rather have on my team. And I'm sure I forgot one or two.

You continue to ignore the factors. Number one the guy is a leadoff hitter, what's with the obsession of homers? His job is to get on base, period. You mention that his stats come with the team '30 games below .500', but that just proves my point. He has absolutely no protection in the lineup. He's been playing with scrubs for a majority of his career. Vidro, Randy Winn, Beltre, Lopez, Betancourt, Aurilia, I don't care who you plug in, they've been awful.

Second point, leading a team to wins. I seem to remember baseball being a 'team' sport. If the guy is doing his job, what's the problem? Again, we're talking about a guy who's had a .350 BA four times in his nine year career. You sound like a majority of the critics who simply don't get it. Thinking he is all about padding his stats. Simply ridiculous. His teammates question him? Are you #@^$#&# kidding me? Guys like Carlos Silva who end up with ERA's as high as 7 or 8?? Or J.J. Putz who hasn't amounted to half of the ballplayer Ichiro is? I mean c'mon. His 'teammates' are the reason Seattle has missed the playoffs for eight seasons. Give me a list of who called him out, I'll give you ten reasons that player would've been gone on any other ballclub. Bavasi was a fool in his player personnel decisions, don't blame the one guy who went out every night and excelled.

jose reyes with his .286 BA? you'd rather have a guy who has hit .300 just twice since he's been in the majors, over a guy who's hit .303 or higher every year he's been in the league? pathetic, absolutely pathetic. ichiro has just as many MVP's and batting titles as all the guys you listed, or more.

We may or may not be aruging different things, I dunno, but my point is plain and simple, he's overrated. Why? Because people get hyped up and call him one of the greatest hitters of all time, when he is clearly not that. That = overrated to me.

Is he very good? Sure. Is he great at making contact at crazy angles? Yes. Does he get on base, sure. Are his numbers inflated? Yes, they are.

You can't say to back off of homeruns cuz he's a lead off hitter, and then praise him for getting on base, when that is what he is supposed to do. Hanley can hit homeruns. Sori can. Rickey did. They're all lead off hitters who put more pressure on a team then slapping a single in the hole.

Late in a game, runner on first base who would you rather face, the 3 lead off hitters I just mentioned who could do various things, or Ichiro who you know will just hit a single. This greatest hitter of all time crap should be able to hit the homerun, or at least a gapper late in games shouldn't he? If he's so "great".

Do you see what I'm saying now? Saying how wonderful he is is fine, long as people aren't trying to put him up there with Ted, Pujols, Gwynn, Brett, Manny, Rose, etc etc etc THOSE are the greatest hitters of all time. (along with a few others) Ichiro is NOT in their category. Not even close.

Do you get where I'm comin from now?

Oh, and add Grady Sizemore, I'd take him before Ichiro in the leadoff spot too.

I see what you're arguing, but you can't change what Ichiro is. He's never been a power guy. Look at what Ichiro can do when he'ssurrounded with talent. He's been a huge contributor in the WBC, getting the game-winning hit against Korea this year. He was an MVP the last time Seattlewas a contendor. He's had to bat around straight up mops his whole career.

What is a great hitter to you? Gwynn surely didn't hit homers.

 

[jonfarr]

Not saying I agree with all the Ichrio supporters here on NT (I actually, sadly, am with CP on this one and think he is overrated...) but...

There is like an unwritten user handbook for NT. Like on page 1, sec 1.1, it states "Thou shall not talk bad in any way shape or form about the man theycall Jordan". On about page 28, sec 145.7 it states "Don't get involved in any sports discussions that involve North West teams with CP1708unless you are completely prepared to go to a nuclear war." You better damn well know what you are talking about because he has prepared his arguments inpreparation of anyone bringing up something NW related to shoot them down. I swear he spends about 3 hours a day preparing for arguments he will have in twomonths time.

Some of you might need to track down this user manual.

 

[john ohh]

I could easily name 50 players that are better hitters than Itchiro.

 

[kiddin like jason]

Oh, and add Grady Sizemore, I'd take him before Ichiro in the leadoff spot too.
No, you wouldn't.

 

[badabing]

Wow...This thread is intense.

 

[651akathepaul]

Interesting stuff guys...This is heated.

Ichiro vs. Liriano tonight. Go Twins! Go Ichiro!

Carry on...

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by John Ohh

I could easily name 50 players that are better hitters than Itchiro.

Never mind the pathetic attempt to spell Ichiro (in which I'd highly recommend trying to sound less like an illiterate musician), but youcould not name 50 players that are better hitters than Ichiro. Unless you start naming retired players.

 

[stringer bell 32]

Originally Posted by Kiddin Like Jason

Oh, and add Grady Sizemore, I'd take him before Ichiro in the leadoff spot too.

No, you wouldn't.

 

[kiddin like jason]

He's still going.

 

[john ohh]

finnns2003 wrote:

---

Originally Posted by John Ohh

I could easily name 50 players that are better hitters than Itchiro.

Never mind the pathetic attempt to spell Ichiro (in which I'd highly recommend trying to sound less like an illiterate musician), but you could not name 50 players that are better hitters than Ichiro. Unless you start naming retired players.


You must not have a good sense of humor. I was trying to knock one of the most overrated hitters of all time. Naming retired players is the pointisn't it?
We ARE talking about the GREATEST of ALL TIME.

Illiterate is right, I was only accepted into Yale and Gonzaga, among others. That is for another time though.

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by John Ohh

finnns2003 wrote:

---

Originally Posted by John Ohh

I could easily name 50 players that are better hitters than Itchiro.

Never mind the pathetic attempt to spell Ichiro (in which I'd highly recommend trying to sound less like an illiterate musician), but you could not name 50 players that are better hitters than Ichiro. Unless you start naming retired players.

You must not have a good sense of humor. I was trying to knock one of the most overrated hitters of all time. Naming retired players is the point isn't it?
We ARE talking about the GREATEST of ALL TIME.

Illiterate is right, I was only accepted into Yale and Gonzaga, among others. That is for another time though.


I have a great sense of humor. Anyways...

One of the most overrated hitters of all-time huh? You guys sound ridiculous. Who's he overrated by? Major sports networks don't even cover NW teams.

You'd be amazed at the amount of illiterate individuals accepted into top schools. Hell, George W. went to Yale...

 

[john ohh]

Ichiro is a slap singles hitter. He belongs in Softball.
4 out of 10 times, any major league, college,semi pro hitter could go up to the plate and just make contact and hit singles. Is that what makes someone theGreatest hitter of all time?

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Ichiro is a slap singles hitter. He belongs in Softball.
4 out of 10 times, any major league, college,semi pro hitter could go up to the plate and just make contact and hit singles. Is that what makes someone the Greatest hitter of all time?

stop! you sound ridiculous. i guess it's that easy that everyone has a .330+ career BA right?

 

[guerrilla warfare]

briannnnn wrote:

---

The ghost of Joe D will not let his record be broken.

 

[john ohh]

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Ichiro is a slap singles hitter. He belongs in Softball.
4 out of 10 times, any major league, college,semi pro hitter could go up to the plate and just make contact and hit singles. Is that what makes someone the Greatest hitter of all time?

stop! you sound ridiculous. i guess it's that easy that everyone has a .330+ career BA right?

Since when did a 330 Batting average and 1500 singles make him the greatest hitter of all time?

 

[finnns2003]

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Ichiro is a slap singles hitter. He belongs in Softball.
4 out of 10 times, any major league, college,semi pro hitter could go up to the plate and just make contact and hit singles. Is that what makes someone the Greatest hitter of all time?

stop! you sound ridiculous. i guess it's that easy that everyone has a .330+ career BA right?

Since when did a 330 Batting average and 1500 singles make him the greatest hitter of all time?

we're measuring HITTERS, not sluggers.

 

[daglove20]

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Ichiro is a slap singles hitter. He belongs in Softball.
4 out of 10 times, any major league, college,semi pro hitter could go up to the plate and just make contact and hit singles. Is that what makes someone the Greatest hitter of all time?

4 out of 10 times? Any hitter? Watch a Mariners game and I wish it was that easy

.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Ichiro is a slap singles hitter. He belongs in Softball.
4 out of 10 times, any major league, college,semi pro hitter could go up to the plate and just make contact and hit singles. Is that what makes someone the Greatest hitter of all time?

stop! you sound ridiculous. i guess it's that easy that everyone has a .330+ career BA right?

Since when did a 330 Batting average and 1500 singles make him the greatest hitter of all time?

we're measuring HITTERS, not sluggers.

SAME !+%!!#* DIFFERENCE.

Why are we giving people a different class becuase they only hit singles.

Fact of the matter is Jack Cust and Ichiro will result in the same amount of runs regardless of who is a :slugger: and who is a "hitter"

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Ichiro is a slap singles hitter. He belongs in Softball.
4 out of 10 times, any major league, college,semi pro hitter could go up to the plate and just make contact and hit singles. Is that what makes someone the Greatest hitter of all time?

stop! you sound ridiculous. i guess it's that easy that everyone has a .330+ career BA right?

Since when did a 330 Batting average and 1500 singles make him the greatest hitter of all time?

At least some other people in here are making excellent points. Not only are you trying to say what other's already said, but you seem to mess it up and Ireally REALLY think you have literally no clue.

Aside from everything else that was said by others, Ichiro has just under 1900 hits IN LESS THAN 9 FULL YEARS. Don't care who you are...That's amazing.1500?

$@$#+ with that. We're talking 2,000 hits in a 9 year span...That's nuts...and unprecedented.

 

[john ohh]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Originally Posted by finnns2003

Originally Posted by John Ohh

Ichiro is a slap singles hitter. He belongs in Softball.
4 out of 10 times, any major league, college,semi pro hitter could go up to the plate and just make contact and hit singles. Is that what makes someone the Greatest hitter of all time?

stop! you sound ridiculous. i guess it's that easy that everyone has a .330+ career BA right?

Since when did a 330 Batting average and 1500 singles make him the greatest hitter of all time?

At least some other people in here are making excellent points. Not only are you trying to say what other's already said, but you seem to mess it up and I really REALLY think you have literally no clue.

Aside from everything else that was said by others, Ichiro has just under 1900 hits IN LESS THAN 9 FULL YEARS. Don't care who you are...That's amazing. 1500?

$@$#+ with that. We're talking 2,000 hits in a 9 year span...That's nuts...and unprecedented.

Look at how many doubles, triples and homeruns he has combined and then tell me how many singles he has. I dont give a damn how many hits you have, you arntthe greatest until you can hit doubles, triples and mash homeruns consistently. Not have 27 singles in 27 games.