If Dennis Rodman gets into the HOF, so will Ben Wallace...do you agree w. that statement?

[solefob]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by el producto79

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43


Wallace is one of the greatest defensive players of all time (FOUR DPOYs speak for themselves), and he also has a ring.

Stats and awards are cool, but I think most who watched both play would say Rodman was the better defender of the two.

no.

no, no, and no. i would actually like to see who else here would agree with that statement.


Rodman was a solid position defender on the Pistons, but on the Bulls he was just a scrappy, dirty player on the defensive end. he was NOT completely changing games with his defense like Ben Wallace was. i suppose you could consider his defensive rebounding as part of defense, because he was preventing the other team from scoring while creating extra possessions for his team. but even when you do that, Rodman does not add up to Ben Wallace's overall impact on the game defensively.

thats one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read. Dennis Rodman was one of the 5 greatest defensive players of all time. Ask MagicJohnson and James Worthy about him during their finals battles. Ask Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan during their ECF battles, or Karl Malone in the finals. Its true he had his antics on the court but when he was playing he was unbelievable.

Also Phil Jackson said that Rodman picked up the triangle offense faster than any other player he had and was an underrated passer when he would be in the postfor the bulls and had cutters running off him.

Ben Wallace was a weakside defender, not a good on ball defender, that was left to Clifford Robinson and Rasheed Wallace (who are two of the better postdefenders of their time) He was a complete offensive liability and the reason why he got all those awards was because voters were mesmorized by his weaksideblocks, nothing else

 

[chinoman1782]

wallace no freakin way! wallace has done nothing outside of detroit. rodman was key in the pistons chips and the 2nd 3peat for the bulls. not to mention hisseason w. spurs. rodman was GREAT, wallace was not.

 

[downtown43]

Originally Posted by solefob

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by el producto79

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43


Wallace is one of the greatest defensive players of all time (FOUR DPOYs speak for themselves), and he also has a ring.

Stats and awards are cool, but I think most who watched both play would say Rodman was the better defender of the two.

no.

no, no, and no. i would actually like to see who else here would agree with that statement.


Rodman was a solid position defender on the Pistons, but on the Bulls he was just a scrappy, dirty player on the defensive end. he was NOT completely changing games with his defense like Ben Wallace was. i suppose you could consider his defensive rebounding as part of defense, because he was preventing the other team from scoring while creating extra possessions for his team. but even when you do that, Rodman does not add up to Ben Wallace's overall impact on the game defensively.

thats one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read. Dennis Rodman was one of the 5 greatest defensive players of all time. Ask Magic Johnson and James Worthy about him during their finals battles. Ask Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan during their ECF battles, or Karl Malone in the finals. Its true he had his antics on the court but when he was playing he was unbelievable.

Also Phil Jackson said that Rodman picked up the triangle offense faster than any other player he had and was an underrated passer when he would be in the post for the bulls and had cutters running off him.

Ben Wallace was a weakside defender, not a good on ball defender, that was left to Clifford Robinson and Rasheed Wallace (who are two of the better post defenders of their time) He was a complete offensive liability and the reason why he got all those awards was because voters were mesmorized by his weakside blocks, nothing else

seriously? SERIOUSLY!?!?

you've got to be kidding me.

i'm not arguing that Rodman was a better overall player than Wallace. but he was not a better defender. Rodman was not even the 2nd best defender on histeam, so i do not see how he can be a top 5 defender of all time.

people overrate the 90s Bulls so much on here.

 

[doublejs07]

OKB, does Bill James do stats for basketball as well?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

OKB, does Bill James do stats for basketball as well?

Nah he is getting paid by the red sox's to do more important stuff.

Dean Oliver is what you could call the Bill James of Basketball stats, he invented evaluating things based on possessions. Offensive Efficiency and DefensiveEfficiency are extensions of that (offensive/defensive performance per 100 possessions)

As well as figuring out a teams record by removing luck and Four Factor Analysis. From possession-based analysis, there are only four statistical team factorsthat matter in terms of winning or losing: effective field goal percentage, offensive rebounding percentage, turnovers per possession, and free throws made perfield goal attempted.


Keep in mind that defensive rating is heavily dependent on your teammates, it can help you figure out who was the best defensive player on a team. Go check out82games.com or Basketball-Reference.com they can explain it better than I can.

Oliver thinks possession efficiency is basketball's version of on-base percentage. "Teams that score a lot of points don't necessarily win games, and teams that prevent opponents from scoring a lot of points don't necessarily win, either," he explains. "But if you convert a greater percentage of possessions into points than your opponent does, you win games." By tracking a team's per-possession efficiency whenever a given player is on the court, Oliver thinks he has the truest measure of a player's value. By comparison, metrics like points per game, rebounds, or assists reveal little.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Originally Posted by el producto79

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43



Wallace is one of the greatest defensive players of all time (FOUR DPOYs speak for themselves), and he also has a ring.

Stats and awards are cool, but I think most who watched both play would say Rodman was the better defender of the two.

He was a better one-on-one defender, but Ben was a better help- and team defender. I'm sorry, but Rodman wouldn't completely change your team'sdefensive mentality to the same extent a 2002-2005 Ben would. With Ben, you had a guy who would contest every layup and every shot in the key, and he wouldreject a lot of them. Plus he would defend the passing lanes quite nicely, as is evident by his 1.7-1.8 steal average in his prime. Rodman was not that kind ofdefender.

 

[outkast9984]

no way ben gets in

 

[you big dummy]

Originally Posted by hampisaboss

Big Ben cant hold a candle to Rodman...

100% agreed


OP forgot to mention Rodman's 7 rebounding titles and 52% career field goal percentage. Ontop of that, Rodman did a lot of intangibles that an impact onthe game that weren't recorded in boxscores. Rodman should be in the hall of fame, looking at his body of work this shouldn't even be up for debate.


Wallace's name shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Dennis Rodman.

 

[bigmike23]

big ben a better defender then rodman? HELL %$%+%@$ NO

 

[twill250]

Ben Wallace 6′9″ and 250 lbs



Dennis Rodman 6'8 and 215 lbs


The Worm>>>>>>>>Ben wallcae

 

[after h0urs]

Worm >>>>>> Ben Wallace

Everyone knows the Worm can rebound and defend, but he was key in throwing opposing big men off their game. His dumb antics off the court overshadow his highbasketball IQ. The guy also brought a level of hustle unmatched by any player in the NBA today. Guy would fly into the stands every other game.

 

[solefob]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by solefob

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Originally Posted by el producto79

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43


Wallace is one of the greatest defensive players of all time (FOUR DPOYs speak for themselves), and he also has a ring.

Stats and awards are cool, but I think most who watched both play would say Rodman was the better defender of the two.

no.

no, no, and no. i would actually like to see who else here would agree with that statement.


Rodman was a solid position defender on the Pistons, but on the Bulls he was just a scrappy, dirty player on the defensive end. he was NOT completely changing games with his defense like Ben Wallace was. i suppose you could consider his defensive rebounding as part of defense, because he was preventing the other team from scoring while creating extra possessions for his team. but even when you do that, Rodman does not add up to Ben Wallace's overall impact on the game defensively.

thats one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read. Dennis Rodman was one of the 5 greatest defensive players of all time. Ask Magic Johnson and James Worthy about him during their finals battles. Ask Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan during their ECF battles, or Karl Malone in the finals. Its true he had his antics on the court but when he was playing he was unbelievable.

Also Phil Jackson said that Rodman picked up the triangle offense faster than any other player he had and was an underrated passer when he would be in the post for the bulls and had cutters running off him.

Ben Wallace was a weakside defender, not a good on ball defender, that was left to Clifford Robinson and Rasheed Wallace (who are two of the better post defenders of their time) He was a complete offensive liability and the reason why he got all those awards was because voters were mesmorized by his weakside blocks, nothing else

seriously? SERIOUSLY!?!?

you've got to be kidding me.

i'm not arguing that Rodman was a better overall player than Wallace. but he was not a better defender. Rodman was not even the 2nd best defender on his team, so i do not see how he can be a top 5 defender of all time.

people overrate the 90s Bulls so much on here.

He was great with the Bulls but his greatest was with the Pistons where he would guard Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Larry Bird, and Kevin Mchaleand do a pretty damn good job guarding them too. He was the defensive stopper on a great defensive team. Its as if you never watched him when he was on thePistons and just remember him for his flamboyance and getting rebounds.

Once again ridiculous.

 

[wttm]

Not discrediting Bens 4 time DPOY, but he played in a era with water down bigs and defensive stoppers/enforcer. Rodman was a more versatile defensive playerIMO. He could guard the 2-5.....but I guess when you have bigs that blocked shot like they did back in the day (dream, admiral, ewing, deke, zo, etc),you're not gonna win any DYOP.

P.S. to the youngins saying we overrate the bulls. i think many are stating their opinion based on Rodmans Pistons days as well. He guarded the GOAT andstopped the bulls till Jordan learned to play with his teammates. Oh... and i think longetivty should play a part here too. How many great years did Ben have,6? Dude fell off hard after he went to the bulls. the pistons as a team was as good for him as much as ben was good for the team. Rodman was great on thepistons, spurs and bulls.

 

[be4chst]

no, not a true statement. because wallace dont have enough rings.

 

[depast]

Rodman gets in.

BWallace, I don't know. He does have a few DPOY's.

 

[skillz]

Rodman should end up in the Hof. But just because he gets in doesn't mean Ben Wallace should get in. I don't think Rodman getting in will help Wallaceget inducted. Rodman should get in. Wallace...i would no.
Btw Why is Robert Horry even being mentioned in this he will never ever be in the hof.

 

[snaggykicks]

Originally Posted by High Class Scum Bag

i think rodman will get into hall of fame eventually, but his off the court antics overshadow what he did on the court....i still feel wallace is a long shot.

agreed

 

[dublbagn]

Originally Posted by wttm


Not discrediting Bens 4 time DPOY, but he played in a era with water down bigs and defensive stoppers/enforcer. Rodman was a more versatile defensive player IMO. He could guard the 2-5.....but I guess when you have bigs that blocked shot like they did back in the day (dream, admiral, ewing, deke, zo, etc), you're not gonna win any DYOP.

P.S. to the youngins saying we overrate the bulls. i think many are stating their opinion based on Rodmans Pistons days as well. He guarded the GOAT and stopped the bulls till Jordan learned to play with his teammates. Oh... and i think longetivty should play a part here too. How many great years did Ben have, 6? Dude fell off hard after he went to the bulls. the pistons as a team was as good for him as much as ben was good for the team. Rodman was great on the pistons, spurs and bulls.

him and dumars shut down Jordan.....that was real basketball, not this modern day touch foul BS.....I was in the house (even though I was 10 yearsold) for both pistons championships and most of the piston vs. bulls games.....and I still have season tickets!!!! Ben is good, but RODMAN IS BETTER!!!!!! you have to watch a game (not highlights) to see what this man did on the court (forget his crazy off the court stuff). He would out leap everyone to tip theball to him self then keep tipping it to half court, gather the rock, pass to john sally or vinnie johnson, get the rock back 1 step and a 2 handed flush!!!!!!

 

[RyGuy45]

Just FYI the HOF has said Rodman is not yet eligible.

He continues to play in different low level pro leagues and they consider that "pro basketball".....so he is still waiting. I read this in an articlearound this time last year. So we dont know yet how people are going to vote as well as how many people will use his off court antics against him.

I havent read thru this whole thread but to me despite his antics that will turn some voters off Rodman gets in at some point. I cannot same the same forWallace right now and I've always been a big fan. Comparing the two is tough just like it is in all these discussions we have, but for Rodman's casehis teams always won. Always. He played on only one losing team his entire career and that record that season was 40-42. And he has rings. Five of them. Voterseat that stuff up. Beyond his 2 DPOY awards he had 8 total seasons in the Top 5 DPOY voting. And he was losing out on winning that award to players likeOlajuwon and Admiral.

Ben Wallace cannot appologize for the years he played.....but he was winning his DPOY awards over Bruce Bowens and Ron Artests. This is not to state Wallacedidnt have monster years however.

But aside from that, Worm was another classic case of his awards did not match his play and you also had to just watch the games to really understand his playand what he took away from the other team. Not a perfect player, and had about zero offensive game.....but likely a HOF in my eyes.

Rodman had years where voters got bored with him just like we see in all sports. Here's a couple examples....

#1 - In 1993-94 Rodman played his first season with San Antonio and averaged 17.3 RPG. The Spurs won 6 more games than they did the yearbefore and David Robinson went from 23.4 PPG the year before to an NBA-leading 29.8. The Spurs total team rebounds went from 21st in NBA to 2nd in NBA. Theiropponent's FG percentage went from .458 to .446. And their opponent's Points Per Game went from 102.8 to 94.8.

And Dennis Rodman made SECOND team All Defense.

#2 - In 1996-97 Rodman led the NBA in rebounding as usual with 16.1 RPG and the Bulls went 69-13. Rodman missed 27 games withan injury (but still played enough to be the official NBA rebounding leader). And to this day no player has gotten to 16+ rebounds per game since. And Worm didnot even place in the TOP 10 in DPY voting. Picture that happening today.

 

[yungmatt]

Originally Posted by DOWNTOWN43

Rodman is one of the greatest rebounders of all time, and he has the rings.

 

[mht214]

There is no doubt Rodman should; but Wallace, hmmmmm. I like the dude, and has definitely done some good things, there is just not enough rings..

 

[RyGuy45]

Dude does stay doing his drag thing, hopefully by the time he gets inducted his name won't be changed to Denise Rodman at that point...

 

[doublejs07]

he's $$#%%$$ disgusting.....good looks on that article RY....so, as long as you are still "playing" basketball professionally, you can'tbe up for the Hall? I guess since it's not the NBA HOF, it makes sense....I thought it was a bit odd that he wasn't inducted yet.

 

[CP1708]

Them pictures.

Too many Chesters runnin 'round out there.

 

[jpzx]

Off-topic but...

Did anyone see Rodman get ethered last night on Celebrity Apprentice?

I don't normally watch the show but I happened to be flipping through the channels and I saw him sitting in the board room. Anyone see it?