Is Carmelo Anthony Still Top 10? *Seriously??* 4/8/12

[hankmoody]

Originally Posted by nismotl

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Excellent passing? Where are you guys getting this? His assist rate is below average for his position and has been for much of his career. Oh, I forgot, 2 weeks is all we are talking about.

Melo has always been an excellent passer, even since his days in Denver, but I'm pretty sure you never followed him back then or watched many Denver games. Sounds like you're just regurgitating what ESPN articles love to say about selfish Melo. His assists rate is below average for the small forward position really? Why don't YOU look it up before you make these statements. Carmelo has been top 10 in assists per game for his position almost every year he's been in the league. That probably surprises you  though because it contradicts what you've read about him. Try watching him play for a change before you make all these assumptions

If he has tools, the data should demonstrate it. Excellent passes lead to buckets right? Then explain this: http://www.hoopdata.com/advancedstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=SF&yr=2012&gp=0&mins=30 (You have to sort AR)

 

[nako xl]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Excellent passing? Where are you guys getting this? His assist rate is below average for his position and has been for much of his career. Oh, I forgot, 2 weeks is all we are talking about.

his assist rate is below average...?  huh?

and melo's never been a bad passer.  his shot selection and commitment to defense has been called into question, but never his passing ability.  anyone who watches the games can see that melo's a good passer for a sf.  he always has been.

even the advanced statistics link you posted contradicts your "below average" claim...

 

[hankmoody]

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Excellent passing? Where are you guys getting this? His assist rate is below average for his position and has been for much of his career. Oh, I forgot, 2 weeks is all we are talking about.

his assist rate is below average...?  huh?

and melo's never been a bad passer.  his shot selection and commitment to defense has been called into question, but never his passing ability.  anyone who watches the games can see that melo's a good passer for a sf.  he always has been.

even the advanced statistics link you posted contradicts your "below average" claim...

It does? Show me. This is what I see:

League Average	NBA	SF	48	34	22.51	54.1	57.9	18.85	12.08	4.2	15.0	9.6	16.58	6.73	5.51	17.46	17.42

[th="col"]League Average[/th][th="col"]Tm[/th][th="col"]Pos[/th][th="col"]GP[/th][th="col"]Min[/th][th="col"]USG[/th][th="col"]TS%[/th][th="col"]%Ast[/th][th="col"]AR[/th][th="col"]TOR[/th][th="col"]ORR[/th][th="col"]DRR[/th][th="col"]TRR[/th][th="col"]EFF[/th][th="col"]WS[/th][th="col"]AWS[/th][th="col"]PER[/th][th="col"]APER[/th]

Andre Iguodala	PHI	SF	54	35.5	17.59	52.5	50.6	41.35	13.55	2.8	16.5	9.6	17.28	8.63	6.55	17.30	17.53
Hedo Turkoglu	ORL	SF	52	31.3	19.40	52.4	39.6	34.48	20.81	1.7	12.2	7.0	11.37	3.38	2.67	11.61	12.17
Trevor Ariza	NOR	SF	41	33.0	18.24	49.7	62.1	25.91	14.48	3.6	15.2	9.5	13.59	5.93	4.46	14.34	14.21
LeBron James	MIA	SF	54	37.6	31.37	60.4	39.3	25.01	13.34	5.1	19.3	12.6	29.83	13.47	11.41	30.72	31.81
Paul Pierce	BOS	SF	53	34.4	27.87	55.9	56.3	22.86	14.36	2.2	15.5	9.1	18.64	6.60	5.72	19.17	19.87
Gerald Wallace	NJN	SF	13	35.9	19.88	52.5	60.0	19.72	9.37	5.3	16.7	10.9	17.85	8.23	6.51	17.92	18.21
Gerald Wallace	POR	SF	42	35.8	17.87	55.6	64.5	19.66	14.36	4.8	16.9	10.8	16.40	7.57	5.30	15.57	15.79
Danilo Gallinari	DEN	SF	33	31.3	20.91	57.6	64.9	17.57	9.92	2.7	15.3	9.1	15.94	6.83	5.65	18.11	18.42
Luol Deng	CHI	SF	48	39.3	20.01	50.3	63.9	16.84	10.47	4.3	13.9	9.2	16.02	6.71	5.37	14.68	14.36
Shawn Marion	DAL	SF	54	30.9	19.34	48.8	67.2	16.55	12.38	8.3	17.4	12.9	14.09	6.88	4.62	14.95	14.13
Tayshaun Prince	DET	SF	54	33.7	20.47	47.1	56.2	16.49	7.94	4.0	12.5	8.1	11.70	3.63	3.23	12.76	12.25
Carmelo Anthony	NYK	SF	46	33.7	31.24	51.2	39.1	15.17	11.22	5.5	15.5	10.4	18.24	5.32	5.05	19.93	21.04

[th="col"] Player Name [/th][th="col"] Tm [/th][th="col"] Pos [/th][th="col"] GP [/th][th="col"] Min [/th][th="col"] USG [/th][th="col"] TS% [/th][th="col"] %Ast [/th][th="col"] AR [/th][th="col"] TOR [/th][th="col"] ORR [/th][th="col"] DRR [/th][th="col"] TRR [/th][th="col"] EFF [/th][th="col"] WS [/th][th="col"] AWS [/th][th="col"] PER [/th][th="col"] APER [/th]

It doesn't matter if he has the ability. It doesn't matter if he fails to use it. Lamar Odom could have the talent to be an elite passer. So what??? That's the entire point. It doesn't matter how much "talent" someone has. What have they done is far more important.

Better yet, can you tell me why Carmelo Anthony is an elite player? Isn't that the point of this thread?

 

[airmaxpenny1]

Go back and watch im drop 46 last year in Boston playing with Toney Douglas, Bill Walker, Shawne Williams and Jared Jefferies.  Just tell me how many guys can do that in the league right now?
And he played on a bunch of 50 win teams at a time when the West was a dominant conference, its not like he lost to $@@!@! comp[s, he lost to the Spurs a bunch of times.

Your always the first guy talking about individual and team accomplishments being different so stop using that as an argument for Mel,o and than not others.

It's April, and Carmelo Anthony owns New York again. How could he not, after Anthony scored 43 points, including threes for the equalizer in regulation and the winner in overtime, and the Knicksabsolutely stole a game from a possible playoff opponent in the Bulls? The love-in has begun, and the narrative is simple: Carmelo drafted, composed, published and posted a statement game. But what if either of his threes had missed? Instead today we're talking about a Knicks team that wilted, blowing a 21-point lead with Melo on the floor for most of the comeback. Such are the perils of hero ball.

Basketball is a wonderfully designed sport, and the only team game an individual can truly make his own. And that's what we want—until we don't. The moments we immortalize are almost always hero ball: we wistfully recall dominance, a player taking over down the stretch, putting a team on his back, refusing to let a team lose. Then we turn around and decry selfishness, taking too many shots, taking too many low-percentage shots, ignoring the open man. "Iso-Melo" is a recipe for hero and goat, depending on the day.

This is who Carmelo Anthony is, of course. The guy who's always going to take the shot, whether he's got a look or not. (On each clutch three yesterday, the Bulls defender—first Taj Gibson, then Luol Deng—was inexplicably playing a couple of steps off of Anthony.) The Knicks knew this when they traded for him. The fans know this every time they call talk radio to $*%%+ about Melo throwing up an off-balance 18-footer at the buzzer that barely finds iron. Anthony is blamed for ruining Linsanity this year, and for displacing Feltonsanity last year, as if his insistence on being the guy poisons the Knicks' occasional discovery of chemistry. But Anthony's been doing this a long time, and afternoons like yesterday—a Garden crowd screaming its head off, fawning back pages—aren't going to change him.

Our relationship with hero ball is fraught, and it rubs off on certain players. Bill Simmons, handicapping the MVP race, had this to say about Kevin Durant, team player:

Durant could jack up 25 shots per game, easily win another scoring title and maybe even try for something like "I want to be one of the four guys in the last half century who averaged more than 36 points a game." He doesn't care. Does it make sense that Durant's point guard is averaging as many shots per game (19.4) as the modern-day cross between George Gervin, Tracy McGrady, Ray Allen and Spider-Man (19.5)? Of course not. Durant doesn't care. He knows that Westbrook needs those shots to get going; hence, he gives them to Westbrook.

Then, a couple paragraphs later, Simmons slags off LeBron for pretty much the same thing.

Why hasn't LeBron felt any obligation to dominate one of these statement games (Orlando, Chicago, Indiana, Oklahoma City and Boston, all losses)? Shouldn't we be worried about his inability to shift gears depending on the game, the situation, or even the moment? He actually thinks he's doing the right thing by playing unselfishly, getting everyone involved, making the right pass at the right time and doing everything else you'd do in a vacuum when situations didn't matter.


What do we want? We want heroes, but we don't want hero ball. We want players to play the percentages, but we want "irrational self-confidence guys." There's no way this contradiction doesn't rub off on players, especially ones as media-sensitive as LeBron James. He knows when he's being called selfish for taking and missing a last-second shot. Maybe it makes him think twice the next time, give an extra glance to see who's open. This, I think, is what makes Carmelo Anthony a unique player—he honestly couldn't give a #%#$ if you think he's selfish. There's something special about a guy who can tune out boos and newspaper coverage and keep chucking. It's swagger to the point of megalomania. (In that famous 1997 commercial, Michael Jordan said he missed 26 last-second shots. Media coverage wasn't near the level it is today, so would Jordan have gotten away with always being "the guy" at the buzzer with every blog trumpeting that Toni Kukoc's crunch-time PER made him the right choice? Probably. Nobody was more megalomaniacal than Michael Jordan, and it served him well.)

Carmelo's not as good as Jordan, obviously. But he's still by far the best player on the Knicks, and he'll still take that last shot, forcing fans to love him or hate him as required. Daryl Moreytried to make a coldly rational case for hero ball, but I'm not sure it wants or needs a logical justification. Hero ball is about a guy who craves adulation and glory, and either doesn't mind or doesn't expect the blowback when he fails. If you miss, you're remembered as the only reason your team lost. If you make it? Well, it's April, and Carmelo Anthony owns New York.

 

[hankmoody]

I read that earlier today. Hero ball. What a loaded term. But the performance doesn't back it up.
I'm judging Melo on the standard others have placed upon him. I don't think he's an elite player. I do think he's a good player. And good players do good things from time to time.
edit: But when he lost in the playoffs, it's not like the team lost every time in spite of his great play. Like I posted, he's had 1 elite playoff run (08-09) and 1 good showing last year where he was on a bad team but still performed alright. There is no excuse for 37.5% shooting to be called great. That's where I draw the line. Elite players don't do that in the first round when scoring is their main contribution. 

 

[nako xl]

Originally Posted by HankMoody

Originally Posted by Nako XL

HankMoody wrote:

even the advanced statistics link you posted contradicts your "below average" claim...

It does? Show me. This is what I see:

League Average	NBA	SF	48	34	22.51	54.1	57.9	18.85	12.08	4.2	15.0	9.6	16.58	6.73	5.51	17.46	17.42

[th="col"]League Average[/th][th="col"]Tm[/th][th="col"]Pos[/th][th="col"]GP[/th][th="col"]Min[/th][th="col"]USG[/th][th="col"]TS%[/th][th="col"]%Ast[/th][th="col"]AR[/th][th="col"]TOR[/th][th="col"]ORR[/th][th="col"]DRR[/th][th="col"]TRR[/th][th="col"]EFF[/th][th="col"]WS[/th][th="col"]AWS[/th][th="col"]PER[/th][th="col"]APER[/th]

Andre Iguodala	PHI	SF	54	35.5	17.59	52.5	50.6	41.35	13.55	2.8	16.5	9.6	17.28	8.63	6.55	17.30	17.53
Hedo Turkoglu	ORL	SF	52	31.3	19.40	52.4	39.6	34.48	20.81	1.7	12.2	7.0	11.37	3.38	2.67	11.61	12.17
Trevor Ariza	NOR	SF	41	33.0	18.24	49.7	62.1	25.91	14.48	3.6	15.2	9.5	13.59	5.93	4.46	14.34	14.21
LeBron James	MIA	SF	54	37.6	31.37	60.4	39.3	25.01	13.34	5.1	19.3	12.6	29.83	13.47	11.41	30.72	31.81
Paul Pierce	BOS	SF	53	34.4	27.87	55.9	56.3	22.86	14.36	2.2	15.5	9.1	18.64	6.60	5.72	19.17	19.87
Gerald Wallace	NJN	SF	13	35.9	19.88	52.5	60.0	19.72	9.37	5.3	16.7	10.9	17.85	8.23	6.51	17.92	18.21
Gerald Wallace	POR	SF	42	35.8	17.87	55.6	64.5	19.66	14.36	4.8	16.9	10.8	16.40	7.57	5.30	15.57	15.79
Danilo Gallinari	DEN	SF	33	31.3	20.91	57.6	64.9	17.57	9.92	2.7	15.3	9.1	15.94	6.83	5.65	18.11	18.42
Luol Deng	CHI	SF	48	39.3	20.01	50.3	63.9	16.84	10.47	4.3	13.9	9.2	16.02	6.71	5.37	14.68	14.36
Shawn Marion	DAL	SF	54	30.9	19.34	48.8	67.2	16.55	12.38	8.3	17.4	12.9	14.09	6.88	4.62	14.95	14.13
Tayshaun Prince	DET	SF	54	33.7	20.47	47.1	56.2	16.49	7.94	4.0	12.5	8.1	11.70	3.63	3.23	12.76	12.25
Carmelo Anthony	NYK	SF	46	33.7	31.24	51.2	39.1	15.17	11.22	5.5	15.5	10.4	18.24	5.32	5.05	19.93	21.04

[th="col"] Player Name [/th][th="col"] Tm [/th][th="col"] Pos [/th][th="col"] GP [/th][th="col"] Min [/th][th="col"] USG [/th][th="col"] TS% [/th][th="col"] %Ast [/th][th="col"] AR [/th][th="col"] TOR [/th][th="col"] ORR [/th][th="col"] DRR [/th][th="col"] TRR [/th][th="col"] EFF [/th][th="col"] WS [/th][th="col"] AWS [/th][th="col"] PER [/th][th="col"] APER [/th]

It doesn't matter if he has the ability. It doesn't matter if he fails to use it. Lamar Odom could have the talent to be an elite passer. So what??? That's the entire point. It doesn't matter how much "talent" someone has. What have they done is far more important.

Better yet, can you tell me why Carmelo Anthony is an elite player? Isn't that the point of this thread?


so he's 12th in the league in that stat?  that's below average?

and if you watch the games then you've see how many times he's created shots for his teammates and they've blown it.  there were 4 instances just yesterday in the 4th quarter before he finally took the game tying three upon himself.

hell jared jeffries at the end of the boston series last season is a shining example.  doesn't make melo a bad passer.  and absolutely not below average.  by basing your argument on those stats you're conceding he's probably a top 10 passing small forward.

 

[hankmoody]

At his position!!!!!! And I screened out SF's who don't average 30 mins a game.
I said below average for his position. Christ. Read my posts. 

 

[nako xl]

right. so he's 10th in the league at his position. out of how many??? how is top ten below average?

especially when you compare his current supporting cast, double teams he faces compared to the guys ahead of him, and all else.

 

[hankmoody]

Among SF's who average 30 minutes a game, he's not in the top 10 in assist rate. He's below the average for that stat in the cohort. And anyways, the title of this thread isn't if Carmelo Anthony is a top 10 SF; it's top 10 player in the league, I'll readily say he's a top 10 SF...

 

[futuristic]

 There's some serious reading comprehension failure going on 

 

[tommykairaa]

i dont een no how to reed

 

[roundaway]

HankMoody, you seriously hate Carmelo Anthony. You discredit his strong points which is scoring, rebounding and passing. He's 5th in APG this season at the 3 behind Lebron, hedo, pierce and iggy. Those guys are ELITE passers at thier position, and Melo is a good passer. According to your stat, iggy, hedo and Ariza are better passers than Lebron. You seem to be a huge stat geek that does not REALLY watch the game.

Melo does a good job with the hockey assist, and if you actually watch the game...you'll see he's a willing passer. Especially in Denver. he'd get it on the elbow, see the double...hit a cutting Nene, who'd then hit Kmart for an easy dunk. It's not impossible to be a "ball stopper" and have good court vision and passing ability. Carmelo is a flawed player, don't get me wrong. I have issues particularly with his defense and focus at times, but offensively he's pretty special in all aspects of that game, and a good rebounding SF.

He's also not as inefficient in traditional FG% as some may make it seem. He's had 3 straight seasons of shooting at least 47%, peaking at 49, and shot around 46% last year...the same as Durant.

You can't sit here and tell me iggy (who's more of a 2), hedo and Ariza are better passers than Lebron. Take the time out to watch an offensive set before running to every advanced stat out there

 

[crowelliowa34]

Hank Moody is a hater toward Melo lol stats don't lie but stats don't always get that W at the end of the day

 

[abovelegit1]

Guess I must hate Carmelo as well, because he's nowhere near my top ten. Some of you seem to have observer bias, because from my neutral perspective he's a volume scorer, an average passer, and a below average defender. And contrary to the moronic point of view that effort equals good defense at this level, defense is actually a skill involving lateral quickness and defensive awareness. Carmelo doesn't really possess either quality in spades, and his effort is inconsistent at best. Ergo he's a below average defender.

People are really still using points/assists per game as support for their arguments? Those stats are inherently flawed, and tell you very little about a player. This is 2012, there are better stats out there.

Still a quite good player, though.

 

[harlemtothebronx]

This is why I avoid interaction with HankMoody.

 

[trasoul82]

My favorite "advanced statistics" for Melo:

Never missed the playoffs. - Since 2003, Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Wade can't say that.

Never had a losing record - This season might be the exception as far games won/loss with Melo on the floor. (and excuse me if I'm willing to recognize that he came off of his first surgeries ever in a compacted season with no training camp to a coach who wanted to feature him as a PG)

Career record in head-to-head- match-ups with LeBron -  9-6 (Been beating LeBron since High School)

Career record in head-to-head match-ups with Durant - 10-1

(It's supposed to be a team sport, right?)

Shooting 44% in clutch situations.

Notice who stepped up and defended Durant on his last shot.

I can understand not liking a player. But to trivialize the art of scoring the basketball in order to discredit said player? That's just sad on so many levels.

 

[DCAllAfrican]

I guess I hate Melo too then. It is sad that we can't have a serious discussion about a player without people getting in their feelings. Because we don't support the play style of a player doesn't mean we hate them. I don't know maybe it is a a defense mechanism used by people that feel Melo is a Top 10 player.

That HoopData link was great support Hank. Fellas that don't know how to read it, it has the average at the top row. Melo falls way below that number, that is why he is below average. You can't claim that someone is excellent in something when they have never proven it. Sorry people need evidence and not emotionally based opinions. We no longer need to use the eye test to determine things.

 

[hymen man]

The Bulls loss really prompted this Melo talk from Hank?

 

[harlemtothebronx]

Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican

I guess I hate Melo too then. It is sad that we can't have a serious discussion about a player without people getting in their feelings. Because we don't support the play style of a player doesn't mean we hate them. I don't know maybe it is a a defense mechanism used by people that feel Melo is a Top 10 player.

OR, and this is just a shot in the dark, but could it be possible that some people honestly disagree and have a differing opinion? What am I saying, of course not. Silly me thinking 'top ten player' is a matter of opinion.

'Defense mechanism. Give me a %%%#$$@ break.

 

[harlemtothebronx]

And for the record, I'm staying completely out of this 'debate' but miss me with your condescending psychological prognosis, Dr. DC.

 

[doublejs07]

I'm learning to accept advanced stats (still won't see moneyball tho

). Anyways, this is from a site HM told me about. The line I'm gonna quote is in reference to a derrick rose/chris paul article.

Proponents of Rose can always point to the “eye testâ€

 

[trasoul82]

Originally Posted by DoubleJs07

I'm learning to accept advanced stats (still won't see moneyball tho

). Anyways, this is from a site HM told me about. The line I'm gonna quote is in reference to a derrick rose/chris paul article.

Proponents of Rose can always point to the “eye testâ€

 

[rashi]

I can careless if he's "Top 10" or not, there's no one else in the league I want taking the last shot for my team.

 

[duba169]

I knew I'd wake up to a bunch of calculators

Stick to baseball with that garbage. Use your eyes

 

[tennhouse2]

I really wanna see yall top 10s if some of yall really think he's in there....I just can't see who yall would put him over in a top 10