darthska
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Soooo many people in here arguing against Carmelo would love to have him on their NBA team if news dropped today that their team acquired him.
Is Carmelo Anthony Still Top 10? *Seriously??* 4/8/12
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by iamdavidrice,
- Start date
big j 33
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When it comes to advanced stats.. if someone claims player X does Y very well... yet the evidence and data says player X is below average, then you're incorrect if you still hold to your claim. If you're against certain stats like win shares or even PER, then that's your business. But when it comes to numbers like assist or rebound percentage, I mean those are just facts, I don't know how you argue those. Raw averages can be incredibly misleading, if your team plays at a faster pace, then there will be more opportunities for assists, rebounds, points, etc., that should be common knowledge by now.
People who are anti-advanced stats always point to the "just watch the game" defense. Problem is unless you're a scout for a team, you're probably not watching every single game. Most of us watch whatever is on TNT or ESPN, or we watch our home team, or we will watch various matchups nightly on league pass. The importance of advanced stats arises because people continue to look at misleading averages or because their "eye test" is simply wrong. Just because someone watches the game and forms an opinion, doesn't automatically make it the correct one. Just the same as someone who looks at advanced statistics isn't automatically accurate in every facet of their analysis. You have to do both. Watching the game allows us to notice the things that do not show up in the stat sheet, even the most advanced ones. Meanwhile, looking at the advanced stats shows us things we simply miss or are wrong about.
As for Melo, I do not care where he ranks. We could all agree he's OFFICIALLY the 14th best player in the league or he could be number 3 or 55 for all I care. His salary and what it took to get him here, he should perform like an elite player in whatever way the team needs.
People who are anti-advanced stats always point to the "just watch the game" defense. Problem is unless you're a scout for a team, you're probably not watching every single game. Most of us watch whatever is on TNT or ESPN, or we watch our home team, or we will watch various matchups nightly on league pass. The importance of advanced stats arises because people continue to look at misleading averages or because their "eye test" is simply wrong. Just because someone watches the game and forms an opinion, doesn't automatically make it the correct one. Just the same as someone who looks at advanced statistics isn't automatically accurate in every facet of their analysis. You have to do both. Watching the game allows us to notice the things that do not show up in the stat sheet, even the most advanced ones. Meanwhile, looking at the advanced stats shows us things we simply miss or are wrong about.
As for Melo, I do not care where he ranks. We could all agree he's OFFICIALLY the 14th best player in the league or he could be number 3 or 55 for all I care. His salary and what it took to get him here, he should perform like an elite player in whatever way the team needs.
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What part about TROLL do you not understand. I will not give you a platform to type out more dumb irrational statements. Go ask other people why they think your a trollOriginally Posted by HankMoody
So what's the excuse for his time in Denver? This is the best stretch of his career on the defensive end and it's 2 weeks. So instead of 2 weeks being a better sample size than just the past 2 mediocre years, these 2 weeks are now better than the past 7 and half years. Orange-and-blue colored glasses are sold out, I surmise.
edit:
Where are you? Look at this coward libel me and then hide when I ask why.
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Hockey passes don't count so thes already a problem. What if Tyson is boxing out all game for amare to just get the easy rebound. Amare finishes with more rebounds in the stats. But if you watch you know what really happened. Tyson tips out the rebound doesn't count.
Then you have injuries, match ups. You think a team plays as hard in a random game in Charlotte compared to a primetime game at MSG? You have refs doing terrible jobs. Favorable calls. Bad coaching rotations
Basketball has too many variables. So melo goes up three times in a row after gathering his own rebound. Gets hacked twice but no call. Does that get measured? If it was lebron it gets called. Do we measure that
Then you have injuries, match ups. You think a team plays as hard in a random game in Charlotte compared to a primetime game at MSG? You have refs doing terrible jobs. Favorable calls. Bad coaching rotations
Basketball has too many variables. So melo goes up three times in a row after gathering his own rebound. Gets hacked twice but no call. Does that get measured? If it was lebron it gets called. Do we measure that
big j 33
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Again.. Who is arguing AGAINST watching the games?
And again.. While watching games does allow you to see beyond the stats, your analysis is not inherently more accurate. How many idiot sports fans have you argued with who stress player X is great at something when they're just talking out of their %$@?
If you want to say there's too many variables then you shouldn't be able to use ANY stats. PPG, APG, rebounds, etc., because then they're all not taking into account all of the possible factors you just listed.
Its a balance between the two.
And again.. While watching games does allow you to see beyond the stats, your analysis is not inherently more accurate. How many idiot sports fans have you argued with who stress player X is great at something when they're just talking out of their %$@?
If you want to say there's too many variables then you shouldn't be able to use ANY stats. PPG, APG, rebounds, etc., because then they're all not taking into account all of the possible factors you just listed.
Its a balance between the two.
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What advanced stat did y'all look at that made y'all defend D'antoni for 4 years?
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Originally Posted by DoubleJs07
I'm learning to accept advanced stats (still won't see moneyball tho). Anyways, this is from a site HM told me about. The line I'm gonna quote is in reference to a derrick rose/chris paul article.
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Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
Soooo many people in here arguing against Carmelo would love to have him on their NBA team if news dropped today that their team acquired him.
This is what i'm saying
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Of course man he just had a dry slow season start watch we taking it
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Some Melo haters in here
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big j 33
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It isn't about refusing to watch the game. People don't have the time to watch every team. There's a good chance I know more about melo this year than lets say a lakers fan.
Stats can help. I just think basketball has a certain feel that other sports don't. One person affects the game so much. Stats are hardest to go by in basketball.
I didn't even say I said hes top ten. I just know for a fact that he can pass, rebound, and play defense because I've seen it.
If I owned a team I would absouluty have an advanced scouting department. But my eyes would weigh heavier on a decision then stats.
Stats can help. I just think basketball has a certain feel that other sports don't. One person affects the game so much. Stats are hardest to go by in basketball.
I didn't even say I said hes top ten. I just know for a fact that he can pass, rebound, and play defense because I've seen it.
If I owned a team I would absouluty have an advanced scouting department. But my eyes would weigh heavier on a decision then stats.
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Why exactly does someone have to be one OR the other? I can't support advanced stats AND watch games? Because I (or anyone else) puts out stats doesn't mean we don't watch games? Can you please stop using that sorry comeback?
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%#%#!$ live entirely too much in the moment on here.
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Yup.
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You clearly missed my point. I know it is an opinionated discussion. What I have a problem with is people taking any criticism of Melo as HATE.Originally Posted by HarlemToTheBronx
OR, and this is just a shot in the dark, but could it be possible that some people honestly disagree and have a differing opinion? What am I saying, of course not. Silly me thinking 'top ten player' is a matter of opinion.
'Defense mechanism. Give me a %%%#$$@ break.
And yes they are defense mechanisms. It damn sure isn't structured debate. People throwing out the hate word. People claiming that we don't watch games. Dudes are getting emotional point blank. Not sure how you don't see that. It is more than them disagreeing, they are in their feelings. Search how many times the word hate has been used in this thread? Is that the best they can do? It is ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican
You clearly missed my point. I know it is an opinionated discussion. What I have a problem with is people taking any criticism of Melo as HATE.Originally Posted by HarlemToTheBronx
OR, and this is just a shot in the dark, but could it be possible that some people honestly disagree and have a differing opinion? What am I saying, of course not. Silly me thinking 'top ten player' is a matter of opinion.
'Defense mechanism. Give me a %%%#$$@ break.
And yes they are defense mechanisms. It damn sure isn't structured debate. People throwing out the hate word. People claiming that we don't watch games. Dudes are getting emotional point blank. Not sure how you don't see that. It is more than them disagreeing, they are in their feelings. Search how many times the word hate has been used in this thread? Is that the best they can do? It is ridiculous.
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And yet any positive argument is labeled as homerism and they are blind.....................Goes both ways my dude. I bowed out of the discussion because no1 is going to change their minds at this point.Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican
You clearly missed my point. I know it is an opinionated discussion. What I have a problem with is people taking any criticism of Melo as HATE.Originally Posted by HarlemToTheBronx
OR, and this is just a shot in the dark, but could it be possible that some people honestly disagree and have a differing opinion? What am I saying, of course not. Silly me thinking 'top ten player' is a matter of opinion.
'Defense mechanism. Give me a %%%#$$@ break.
And yes they are defense mechanisms. It damn sure isn't structured debate. People throwing out the hate word. People claiming that we don't watch games. Dudes are getting emotional point blank. Not sure how you don't see that. It is more than them disagreeing, they are in their feelings. Search how many times the word hate has been used in this thread? Is that the best they can do? It is ridiculous.
Clearly Melo's teams win games in the league in past seasons and people are taking his worst statistical season marred with injuries and a coach who refused to use him to his strengths for 2/3s of a season as a basis for their argument against him as a star player. And discredit anything he has done in past seasons. If thats what dudes wanna do on here then fine thats on them. But the arguments are becoming ******ed because people are using arguments for Melo not being good yet they are putting people above him with those same flaws, most worse than Melo's. And none of which have the offensive game that Melo does.
Originally Posted by DCAllAmerican
Why exactly does someone have to be one OR the other? I can't support advanced stats AND watch games? Because I (or anyone else) puts out stats doesn't mean we don't watch games? Can you please stop using that sorry comeback?
People are stuck in their ways. It's unaccepted in their eyes until one day it supports an argument they make. Not necessarily calling you out Dub but that response is something that gets on my damn nerves. I haven't read the whole thread so it may be warranted for some dudes but chill on calling it garbage that should be only used for baseball. You sound like one of those guys who denounced this in baseball in the 90's but wake up every day to it being prevalent in baseball and teams building winners using it. Not to mention every team has a group of advanced scouts for that purpose. Happening in hockey and basketball now more often. Like DC said, can't you support advanced stats and watch games?
Anywho, for everyone's reading pleasure about the most important player on the Knicks.
Spoiler [+]
I never thought I'd live to see the day when a prominent New York Knicks player was also massively underrated. Yet here we are.
What a refreshing turn of events. For nearly 20 years, the only interesting debate we've had about most Knicks players has been whether they're merely overrated or are phenomenally overrated. That's what happens in the league's biggest market, especially when the fans have been starved for more than a decade of both a superstar player and a consistent winner.
Given those circumstances, I would have thought it impossible for somebody to play well in the league's biggest market yet remain so far outside the hype zone. Yet somehow, one player has managed that feat.
Ask anyone who the Knicks' best player is, and chances are the person won't come up with the right answer until the fourth guess. New York's best player is not as famous as Jeremy Lin nor as glamorous as Carmelo Anthony, nor did he arrive with as much fanfare as Amare Stoudemire.
But as far as winning basketball games? Tyson Chandler is the guy, the one Knick who has proved to be absolutely indispensable in making the team relevant again. Somehow, the spotlight evades him, even as he was the second-best player on a world champion a year ago and is now the best player on the first enjoyable team in the league's biggest market in ages.
Sunday's nationally televised thriller against the Bulls was a perfect example. Afterward, all you heard was MeloMeloMelo. Don't get me wrong, Melo was fantastic, but he had his best game of the season and Chandler had his normal game yet Chandler had just as much impact.
[h4]My 2011-12 All-Defense team[/h4][table][tr][th=""]Point Guard[/th][th=""]Shooting Guard[/th][th=""]Small Forward[/th][th=""]Power Forward[/th][th=""]Center[/th][/tr][tr][td]First team:
Avery Bradley, Boston[/td][td]First team:
Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia[/td][td]First team:
LeBron James, Miami[/td][td]First team:
Kevin Garnett, Boston [/td][td]First team:
Tyson Chandler, New York[/td][/tr][tr][td]Second team:
Ricky Rubio, Minnesota[/td][td]Second team:
Tony Allen, Memphis[/td][td]Second team:
Luol Deng, Chicago[/td][td]Second team:
Taj Gibson, Chicago[/td][td]Second team:
Dwight Howard, Orlando[/td][/tr][tr][td]Third team:
Mike Conley, Memphis[/td][td]Third team:
Ronnie Brewer, Chicago[/td][td]Third team:
Grant Hill, Phoenix[/td][td]Third team:
Josh Smith, Atlanta[/td][td]Third team:
Serge Ibaka, Oklahoma City [/td][/tr][/table]
Even the last sequence of superstar hero-ball was all about Chandler, even with Anthony and Derrick Rose doing all the ballhandling and shooting. Chandler was the one who tapped out two offensive rebounds to allow Melo to make a go-ahead 3 (after he and J.R. Smith had missed initially), then swallowed up Rose's drive to the basket to give the 'Bockers the victory. These details were immediately forgotten or were mentioned only in passing, making this ending the perfect metaphor for Chandler's past two seasons.
This, after Chicago's comeback from a 21-point deficit started right at the point in the first quarter when Chandler exited the game. Do the math: He was a plus-15 in a game his team won by a point, and he sat out only nine minutes. Melo, for all his heroics, was a plus-5; this is one game, but it illustrates the larger point that Chandler is the key guy here.
Injuries provide one obvious insight to this trend. The Knicks have had plenty of success (6-4) when Anthony misses games or when Lin does (5-2 since his injury entering Tuesday night; overall, they're 9-12 when he doesn't play at all and 13-16 when he plays less than 10 minutes), and they have been positively gangbusters (10-3) when Stoudemire sits out.
Chandler? They lost both games he missed.
And as for the Knicks' vaunted Anthony-Stoudemire combo? Without Chandler, it stinks so bad on defense as to be unworkable. When the two play with Chandler, they've surrendered a respectable 99.5 points per 100 possessions, based on NBA.com's lineup data; do the backward math with that data and the minutes for each lineup and it means that, when he's out, they've been blistered for a ridiculous 113.5 (stats through Monday's games).
But let's zoom back out to the big picture and get to the main reason I'm writing about Chandler today: New York's amazing transformation at the defensive end. Chandler wasn't exactly joining the most receptive culture for a defensive game-changer. His new team had two superstars who don't care about defense and a coach who doesn't care about defense. The Knicks have given heavy minutes to others who don't much like defending (Smith) or lack the mobility to do it well (Mike Bibby and Steve Novak).
Yet there is New York, ranking fifth in defensive efficiency.
The Knicks, we'll remind you, were 21st in this category a year ago. And, although other changes have helped -- most notably drafting perimeter antagonist Iman Shumpert -- it's really been Chandler who has changed everything.
And this time around, we really should have expected it, given that:
• He was the main defensive catalyst in Dallas the season before, when the Mavs improved on defense from 12th to seventh and ended up winning the title.
• A year earlier in Charlotte, although he missed 31 games with injuries, he was a key piece on a Bobcats squad that led the league in defensive efficiency (did, too).
• Before that, in New Orleans, he and the Hornets were a top-10 defensive team in consecutive seasons with Chandler and a whole lot of not much else.
• And before that, in Chicago, a young Chandler led the Bulls to the No. 2 mark in defense in 2004-05.
That's a whole lot of dots that connect Chandler to good-to-great defensive teams. He has led five franchises to defensive results that were far better than anyone expected as well as far beyond what the incumbent group of players had achieved previously.
And it's easy to see why when you watch him. He's incredibly long and mobile; he dominates the glass; he doesn't take bad risks going for blocks he can't get; he's a vocal leader without the Kevin Garnett fake-tough-guy stuff; and he has made steady improvements every year.
Which takes us to our endgame here. I think it's high time that Chandler's track record, as well as his one-man U-turn of the Knicks' defense, gained some recognition. Given the diminishing defensive output of Orlando's Dwight Howard this season, I'm endorsing Chandler as the NBA Defensive Player of the Year this season because he's the only thing separating the Knicks from yet another colossally overrated disaster.
The defensive data are always a bit murkier than for offense, so one can make a solid case for several other recipients. Garnett, in particular, has a strong résumé this season, as do perimeter defenders LeBron James, Andre Iguodala and Luol Deng.
But Chandler's numbers back up the idea that he is perhaps the best this season, as does the eye test. Whether anybody is willing to admit it or not, he's been the key to the Knicks' season. It's hard to imagine a high-profile free agent from a world champion coming to New York and getting this little notice, but it's another example of truth being stranger than fiction.
And if he doesn't win? I'll get a bit longer to enjoy a Knick being underrated.
Statistical support provided by NBA.com.
What a refreshing turn of events. For nearly 20 years, the only interesting debate we've had about most Knicks players has been whether they're merely overrated or are phenomenally overrated. That's what happens in the league's biggest market, especially when the fans have been starved for more than a decade of both a superstar player and a consistent winner.
Given those circumstances, I would have thought it impossible for somebody to play well in the league's biggest market yet remain so far outside the hype zone. Yet somehow, one player has managed that feat.
Ask anyone who the Knicks' best player is, and chances are the person won't come up with the right answer until the fourth guess. New York's best player is not as famous as Jeremy Lin nor as glamorous as Carmelo Anthony, nor did he arrive with as much fanfare as Amare Stoudemire.
But as far as winning basketball games? Tyson Chandler is the guy, the one Knick who has proved to be absolutely indispensable in making the team relevant again. Somehow, the spotlight evades him, even as he was the second-best player on a world champion a year ago and is now the best player on the first enjoyable team in the league's biggest market in ages.
Sunday's nationally televised thriller against the Bulls was a perfect example. Afterward, all you heard was MeloMeloMelo. Don't get me wrong, Melo was fantastic, but he had his best game of the season and Chandler had his normal game yet Chandler had just as much impact.
[h4]My 2011-12 All-Defense team[/h4][table][tr][th=""]Point Guard[/th][th=""]Shooting Guard[/th][th=""]Small Forward[/th][th=""]Power Forward[/th][th=""]Center[/th][/tr][tr][td]First team:
Avery Bradley, Boston[/td][td]First team:
Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia[/td][td]First team:
LeBron James, Miami[/td][td]First team:
Kevin Garnett, Boston [/td][td]First team:
Tyson Chandler, New York[/td][/tr][tr][td]Second team:
Ricky Rubio, Minnesota[/td][td]Second team:
Tony Allen, Memphis[/td][td]Second team:
Luol Deng, Chicago[/td][td]Second team:
Taj Gibson, Chicago[/td][td]Second team:
Dwight Howard, Orlando[/td][/tr][tr][td]Third team:
Mike Conley, Memphis[/td][td]Third team:
Ronnie Brewer, Chicago[/td][td]Third team:
Grant Hill, Phoenix[/td][td]Third team:
Josh Smith, Atlanta[/td][td]Third team:
Serge Ibaka, Oklahoma City [/td][/tr][/table]
Even the last sequence of superstar hero-ball was all about Chandler, even with Anthony and Derrick Rose doing all the ballhandling and shooting. Chandler was the one who tapped out two offensive rebounds to allow Melo to make a go-ahead 3 (after he and J.R. Smith had missed initially), then swallowed up Rose's drive to the basket to give the 'Bockers the victory. These details were immediately forgotten or were mentioned only in passing, making this ending the perfect metaphor for Chandler's past two seasons.
This, after Chicago's comeback from a 21-point deficit started right at the point in the first quarter when Chandler exited the game. Do the math: He was a plus-15 in a game his team won by a point, and he sat out only nine minutes. Melo, for all his heroics, was a plus-5; this is one game, but it illustrates the larger point that Chandler is the key guy here.
Injuries provide one obvious insight to this trend. The Knicks have had plenty of success (6-4) when Anthony misses games or when Lin does (5-2 since his injury entering Tuesday night; overall, they're 9-12 when he doesn't play at all and 13-16 when he plays less than 10 minutes), and they have been positively gangbusters (10-3) when Stoudemire sits out.
Chandler? They lost both games he missed.
And as for the Knicks' vaunted Anthony-Stoudemire combo? Without Chandler, it stinks so bad on defense as to be unworkable. When the two play with Chandler, they've surrendered a respectable 99.5 points per 100 possessions, based on NBA.com's lineup data; do the backward math with that data and the minutes for each lineup and it means that, when he's out, they've been blistered for a ridiculous 113.5 (stats through Monday's games).
But let's zoom back out to the big picture and get to the main reason I'm writing about Chandler today: New York's amazing transformation at the defensive end. Chandler wasn't exactly joining the most receptive culture for a defensive game-changer. His new team had two superstars who don't care about defense and a coach who doesn't care about defense. The Knicks have given heavy minutes to others who don't much like defending (Smith) or lack the mobility to do it well (Mike Bibby and Steve Novak).
Yet there is New York, ranking fifth in defensive efficiency.
The Knicks, we'll remind you, were 21st in this category a year ago. And, although other changes have helped -- most notably drafting perimeter antagonist Iman Shumpert -- it's really been Chandler who has changed everything.
And this time around, we really should have expected it, given that:
• He was the main defensive catalyst in Dallas the season before, when the Mavs improved on defense from 12th to seventh and ended up winning the title.
• A year earlier in Charlotte, although he missed 31 games with injuries, he was a key piece on a Bobcats squad that led the league in defensive efficiency (did, too).
• Before that, in New Orleans, he and the Hornets were a top-10 defensive team in consecutive seasons with Chandler and a whole lot of not much else.
• And before that, in Chicago, a young Chandler led the Bulls to the No. 2 mark in defense in 2004-05.
That's a whole lot of dots that connect Chandler to good-to-great defensive teams. He has led five franchises to defensive results that were far better than anyone expected as well as far beyond what the incumbent group of players had achieved previously.
And it's easy to see why when you watch him. He's incredibly long and mobile; he dominates the glass; he doesn't take bad risks going for blocks he can't get; he's a vocal leader without the Kevin Garnett fake-tough-guy stuff; and he has made steady improvements every year.
Which takes us to our endgame here. I think it's high time that Chandler's track record, as well as his one-man U-turn of the Knicks' defense, gained some recognition. Given the diminishing defensive output of Orlando's Dwight Howard this season, I'm endorsing Chandler as the NBA Defensive Player of the Year this season because he's the only thing separating the Knicks from yet another colossally overrated disaster.
The defensive data are always a bit murkier than for offense, so one can make a solid case for several other recipients. Garnett, in particular, has a strong résumé this season, as do perimeter defenders LeBron James, Andre Iguodala and Luol Deng.
But Chandler's numbers back up the idea that he is perhaps the best this season, as does the eye test. Whether anybody is willing to admit it or not, he's been the key to the Knicks' season. It's hard to imagine a high-profile free agent from a world champion coming to New York and getting this little notice, but it's another example of truth being stranger than fiction.
And if he doesn't win? I'll get a bit longer to enjoy a Knick being underrated.
Statistical support provided by NBA.com.
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Hollinger is calling Tyson chandler the DPOY. I'm a Knicks fan and I'd love him to win, but since I don't like advanced stats I wouldn't use it as evidence.
So I'm def not just using or not using stats to suit my argument.
You are right it's just that people are stuck in their ways. And no, baseball is much more or an individual sport so I doubt i would have hated it.
So I'm def not just using or not using stats to suit my argument.
You are right it's just that people are stuck in their ways. And no, baseball is much more or an individual sport so I doubt i would have hated it.
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what? Who wouldnt want a top 20 player on there team? No ones saying hes a scrub, just that hes not top 10Originally Posted by nycknicks105
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
Soooo many people in here arguing against Carmelo would love to have him on their NBA team if news dropped today that their team acquired him.
This is what i'm saying
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Originally Posted by nycknicks105
Originally Posted by 23ska909red02
Soooo many people in here arguing against Carmelo would love to have him on their NBA team if news dropped today that their team acquired him.
This is what i'm saying
What does that have to do with the discussion?