Is it just the Jordan mystique that makes him the "undisputed" GOAT?

You don't think that if Delonte West did MJ's mom he wouldn't have dunked on all 5 celtics and made sure Delonte was in the way to make it 6?

Cold Blooded...That ain't Bron, but that's ok.
 
Knicks got past a Jordanless Pippen led Bulls and ofcourse it was said that wouldn't have happened if MJ was there. I'm pretty sure Pippen disappointed then.
 
Knicks got past a Jordanless Pippen led Bulls and ofcourse it was said that wouldn't have happened if MJ was there. I'm pretty sure Pippen disappointed then.
 
Originally Posted by Down By Law

Originally Posted by daiernchef

All the playoff recoeds are like Favre's records, you dont think Lebron will break all them in time, except PPG in playoffs... Im just gonna say im born and raised chicago and i remember him being a ballhog and not letting us see pippens true talents until Jordan went to play Baseball then if you recall Pippen was in the MVP running and the Bulls made the playoffs as a good seed and came a BAD CALL against the Knicks from being in the Finals with PETE MYERS as 2 guard, not DREXLER, NOT MILLER, PETE MYERS... So would everyone please stop acting like HE WAS THE TEAM he wasnt, 4 of the best 3 point shooters EVER in B.J. Paxson Kerr and Hodges, PIPPEN RODMAN KUKOCH, Plus the talent was better then? are u serious?? There was no D Rose when jordan played no Lebron and a young SHAQ, Bird retired Magic old and fat, Jordan played the CAVS 2 times in the eastern conference finals and there best player was EHLO and DAUGHERTY?? GARBAGE When lebron has had to go thru Boston with 4 HOF's Detroit who went to 5 str8 EC finals, 3 HOF's in the Finals against Spurs plus noone from Jordans era got rings except HAKEEM, Malone Stockton Miller Barkley, Peyton, all played about 20 year careers and Jordan won six so i would imagine if they were as GREAT as everyone claims they could have won a ring in the other 14 years that Jordan didnt... its purely this wack mystique that everyone treats like rappers when it comes to snitchin and they just wont say anyone is better, i heard Mike Greenberg say aand i quote "I dont care if Lebron or anybody wins 12 str8 rings i just cant picture myself saying ANYONE is better then MJ" thats just lame and its because he used to cover the bulls.... but thats typical MJ fan
Click to expand...


You Being born and raised in Chicago means jack !%$! and adds zero credibility to your opinion.The Bulls weren't a bad call away from the Finals, try again champ.It's apparent that you're nothing more than a Lebron stan who's trying to discredit Jordan's greatness, members like you really bring this forum down. Try learning something about basketball before you post again.
Click to expand...

well thanks for your opinion and for pointing that out, whatever they made the playoffs as a high seed and were a bad call away from beating knicks with PETE MYERS and a "TOUGHER" NBA... Prove that wrong and stop knitpickin, come with something against that and not hate towards me, i swear loser no life having forum poster's can NEVER talk about the subject just bash the person posting, unless you got something GOOD to say why dont you just move along...
  
 
Originally Posted by Down By Law

Originally Posted by daiernchef

All the playoff recoeds are like Favre's records, you dont think Lebron will break all them in time, except PPG in playoffs... Im just gonna say im born and raised chicago and i remember him being a ballhog and not letting us see pippens true talents until Jordan went to play Baseball then if you recall Pippen was in the MVP running and the Bulls made the playoffs as a good seed and came a BAD CALL against the Knicks from being in the Finals with PETE MYERS as 2 guard, not DREXLER, NOT MILLER, PETE MYERS... So would everyone please stop acting like HE WAS THE TEAM he wasnt, 4 of the best 3 point shooters EVER in B.J. Paxson Kerr and Hodges, PIPPEN RODMAN KUKOCH, Plus the talent was better then? are u serious?? There was no D Rose when jordan played no Lebron and a young SHAQ, Bird retired Magic old and fat, Jordan played the CAVS 2 times in the eastern conference finals and there best player was EHLO and DAUGHERTY?? GARBAGE When lebron has had to go thru Boston with 4 HOF's Detroit who went to 5 str8 EC finals, 3 HOF's in the Finals against Spurs plus noone from Jordans era got rings except HAKEEM, Malone Stockton Miller Barkley, Peyton, all played about 20 year careers and Jordan won six so i would imagine if they were as GREAT as everyone claims they could have won a ring in the other 14 years that Jordan didnt... its purely this wack mystique that everyone treats like rappers when it comes to snitchin and they just wont say anyone is better, i heard Mike Greenberg say aand i quote "I dont care if Lebron or anybody wins 12 str8 rings i just cant picture myself saying ANYONE is better then MJ" thats just lame and its because he used to cover the bulls.... but thats typical MJ fan
Click to expand...


You Being born and raised in Chicago means jack !%$! and adds zero credibility to your opinion.The Bulls weren't a bad call away from the Finals, try again champ.It's apparent that you're nothing more than a Lebron stan who's trying to discredit Jordan's greatness, members like you really bring this forum down. Try learning something about basketball before you post again.
Click to expand...

well thanks for your opinion and for pointing that out, whatever they made the playoffs as a high seed and were a bad call away from beating knicks with PETE MYERS and a "TOUGHER" NBA... Prove that wrong and stop knitpickin, come with something against that and not hate towards me, i swear loser no life having forum poster's can NEVER talk about the subject just bash the person posting, unless you got something GOOD to say why dont you just move along...
  
 
Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1


Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.
Click to expand...
Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.
Click to expand...
You're overrating his isolation scoring ability; he was merely above average this year, less than a point per possession. You can't say he would have scored more, that's pure speculation. How he would have fared against those Bad-Boy era Pistons, or the Riley-led Knicks, I wonder? Besides, a lot of the perceived general improvement in defense are not improvements at all, just a product of the times. How much better would the defenses of the 80s and 90s be if they had the film technology they have today? Or the statistical departments? Synergy sports?
Click to expand...
1. Last year on synergy he was 6th in the league I believe, and this says nothing about the fact that even in isolation scenarios it's easier to pack the paint or overload on one side even during isolation scenarios today then it was in the 90's (adjusting to wade probabaly had more to do with his drop in efficiency then anything)
2. It's not pure speculation, you can't defend bron with one guy, in the 90's you had more one on one play seems reasonable to me that he would be more successful.
3. It's IRRELEVANT how the defenses are better the fact is they are, i don't see how this refutes my claims at all.


In all cases and in all situations I will take 2 players over 1 player playing defense no matter how physical they are.
 
Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1


Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.
Click to expand...
Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.
Click to expand...
You're overrating his isolation scoring ability; he was merely above average this year, less than a point per possession. You can't say he would have scored more, that's pure speculation. How he would have fared against those Bad-Boy era Pistons, or the Riley-led Knicks, I wonder? Besides, a lot of the perceived general improvement in defense are not improvements at all, just a product of the times. How much better would the defenses of the 80s and 90s be if they had the film technology they have today? Or the statistical departments? Synergy sports?
Click to expand...
1. Last year on synergy he was 6th in the league I believe, and this says nothing about the fact that even in isolation scenarios it's easier to pack the paint or overload on one side even during isolation scenarios today then it was in the 90's (adjusting to wade probabaly had more to do with his drop in efficiency then anything)
2. It's not pure speculation, you can't defend bron with one guy, in the 90's you had more one on one play seems reasonable to me that he would be more successful.
3. It's IRRELEVANT how the defenses are better the fact is they are, i don't see how this refutes my claims at all.


In all cases and in all situations I will take 2 players over 1 player playing defense no matter how physical they are.
 
Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.
Click to expand...
You're overrating his isolation scoring ability; he was merely above average this year, less than a point per possession. You can't say he would have scored more, that's pure speculation. How he would have fared against those Bad-Boy era Pistons, or the Riley-led Knicks, I wonder? Besides, a lot of the perceived general improvement in defense are not improvements at all, just a product of the times. How much better would the defenses of the 80s and 90s be if they had the film technology they have today? Or the statistical departments? Synergy sports?
Click to expand...
1. Last year on synergy he was 6th in the league I believe, and this says nothing about the fact that even in isolation scenarios it's easier to pack the paint or overload on one side even during isolation scenarios today then it was in the 90's (adjusting to wade probabaly had more to do with his drop in efficiency then anything)
2. It's not pure speculation, you can't defend bron with one guy, in the 90's you had more one on one play seems reasonable to me that he would be more successful.
3. It's IRRELEVANT how the defenses are better the fact is they are, i don't see how this refutes my claims at all.


In all cases and in all situations I will take 2 players over 1 player playing defense no matter how physical they are.
Click to expand...
First off, isolation plays are one of the least efficient plays in basketball. I'm not sure why you think LeBron taking more shots in isolation, which in effect would take away from his total shots in pick and roll situations, basket cuts, etc. would make him score more and/or more efficiently.

Secondly, we're talking about scoring in general. Not during a playoff series where a team is gameplanning to stop LeBron using a zone, or box and one, or what have you. How many regular season games did you watch where LeBron was being double teamed? Playing against a zone? Exactly, he was being played straight up the VAST majority of the time, except without the Derek Harper rules. If the rule was in play those defenders would be allowed to be a lot more physical, both on the perimeter and at the rim. Common sense dictates that this type of defense would not be conducive to better scoring over the course of a season. The rules were put in place to increase the entertainment value of the game to the casual fan, and it succeeded because league offensive efficiency has gone up. During the average run-of-the-mill game, the presence of the hand check rules have a much greater impact on scoring than the illegal defense rules, the latter being pertinent rather rarely.
 
Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.
Click to expand...
You're overrating his isolation scoring ability; he was merely above average this year, less than a point per possession. You can't say he would have scored more, that's pure speculation. How he would have fared against those Bad-Boy era Pistons, or the Riley-led Knicks, I wonder? Besides, a lot of the perceived general improvement in defense are not improvements at all, just a product of the times. How much better would the defenses of the 80s and 90s be if they had the film technology they have today? Or the statistical departments? Synergy sports?
Click to expand...
1. Last year on synergy he was 6th in the league I believe, and this says nothing about the fact that even in isolation scenarios it's easier to pack the paint or overload on one side even during isolation scenarios today then it was in the 90's (adjusting to wade probabaly had more to do with his drop in efficiency then anything)
2. It's not pure speculation, you can't defend bron with one guy, in the 90's you had more one on one play seems reasonable to me that he would be more successful.
3. It's IRRELEVANT how the defenses are better the fact is they are, i don't see how this refutes my claims at all.


In all cases and in all situations I will take 2 players over 1 player playing defense no matter how physical they are.
Click to expand...
First off, isolation plays are one of the least efficient plays in basketball. I'm not sure why you think LeBron taking more shots in isolation, which in effect would take away from his total shots in pick and roll situations, basket cuts, etc. would make him score more and/or more efficiently.

Secondly, we're talking about scoring in general. Not during a playoff series where a team is gameplanning to stop LeBron using a zone, or box and one, or what have you. How many regular season games did you watch where LeBron was being double teamed? Playing against a zone? Exactly, he was being played straight up the VAST majority of the time, except without the Derek Harper rules. If the rule was in play those defenders would be allowed to be a lot more physical, both on the perimeter and at the rim. Common sense dictates that this type of defense would not be conducive to better scoring over the course of a season. The rules were put in place to increase the entertainment value of the game to the casual fan, and it succeeded because league offensive efficiency has gone up. During the average run-of-the-mill game, the presence of the hand check rules have a much greater impact on scoring than the illegal defense rules, the latter being pertinent rather rarely.
 
I think its what he did outside of the basketball court that makes him GOAT IMO

Dude revolutionized Nike, now the most popular/recognizable athlete in the world

plus he killed on the court from the start, dude was something vicious
 
I think its what he did outside of the basketball court that makes him GOAT IMO

Dude revolutionized Nike, now the most popular/recognizable athlete in the world

plus he killed on the court from the start, dude was something vicious
 
Originally Posted by abovelegit1

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that?
Click to expand...
I just don't think people would admit it even if they believed it. A large point of that would be because of the personal backlash they would get. People hold in ideas all of the time because they don't want to be dismissed.

But I just feel that Jordan was turned into a God, he was no longer a human man. As long as we are still alive, there is nothing anyyone can do to be considered better. Man even if LeBron won 6, say LeBron won 6, people will still discredit him because he teamed up with Wade and Bosh. No matter how DUMB that idea is, people will hold that against him. Until LeBron can win 6 rings "by himself" that will be dangled in to the discussion until the end of time.

So my point is I don't think LeBron can do anything to be on Mikes level. And as I mentioned before, Jordan's pop culture influence gives him an unfair advantage that people don't even realize that they factor into the equation when determining his on court greatness.
 
Originally Posted by abovelegit1

What is the point of contention here? That even if someone comes along who is better than MJ that they won't be recognized as such? How do you know that?
Click to expand...
I just don't think people would admit it even if they believed it. A large point of that would be because of the personal backlash they would get. People hold in ideas all of the time because they don't want to be dismissed.

But I just feel that Jordan was turned into a God, he was no longer a human man. As long as we are still alive, there is nothing anyyone can do to be considered better. Man even if LeBron won 6, say LeBron won 6, people will still discredit him because he teamed up with Wade and Bosh. No matter how DUMB that idea is, people will hold that against him. Until LeBron can win 6 rings "by himself" that will be dangled in to the discussion until the end of time.

So my point is I don't think LeBron can do anything to be on Mikes level. And as I mentioned before, Jordan's pop culture influence gives him an unfair advantage that people don't even realize that they factor into the equation when determining his on court greatness.
 
He's the one guy who is head and shoulders above everybody else from his generation, one loaded with great centers, the former standard for greatness.
 
He's the one guy who is head and shoulders above everybody else from his generation, one loaded with great centers, the former standard for greatness.
 
honestly man just watch his highlights on youtube. whenever i start considering that maybe there was someone who did it better i immediately go to youtube and watch a few jordan mixes to set me straight.
 
honestly man just watch his highlights on youtube. whenever i start considering that maybe there was someone who did it better i immediately go to youtube and watch a few jordan mixes to set me straight.
 
Originally Posted by Cedric Ceballos 1995 Lakers

Jordan is the undisputed GOAT in basketball.

there is nothing else to be said.
Click to expand...
When you use words like undisputed, this is when there becomes an issue. Undisputed to our generation. Simple as that. Don't absolute an opinionated statement. It is not a FACT that Jordan is the best ever. I think some of us forget that.
 
Originally Posted by Cedric Ceballos 1995 Lakers

Jordan is the undisputed GOAT in basketball.

there is nothing else to be said.
Click to expand...
When you use words like undisputed, this is when there becomes an issue. Undisputed to our generation. Simple as that. Don't absolute an opinionated statement. It is not a FACT that Jordan is the best ever. I think some of us forget that.
 
I really think it's the epic moments MJ has had that leads to him being the GOAT such as.....

The Shot
The Shot part 2
Double Nickel
Leaving and coming back to win 3 more
Endless amounts of Game winners......etc

The list goes on, you all know what those moments were
 
I really think it's the epic moments MJ has had that leads to him being the GOAT such as.....

The Shot
The Shot part 2
Double Nickel
Leaving and coming back to win 3 more
Endless amounts of Game winners......etc

The list goes on, you all know what those moments were
 
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