Is it just the Jordan mystique that makes him the "undisputed" GOAT?

[ldj]

Originally Posted by grittyman20

LDJ wrote:

I respected the hell outta wilt, esp for his off court stats 20,000 ohes. But like i said in another thread after i saw one of his 50+ games and the fact that he got half of his shots in which players backed away and unguarded, and the other half were uncontested. That kinda miscues getting 50 a night.
I also read that Wilt would drop a 50 piece nugget on Bill Russell's head, who was arguably the greatest defensive big man of all time...so it goes both ways. Was there another great 2 guard during Jordan's era who was supposed to slow him down? A lot of times Jordan was going up against defensive players like Hornacek, Ehlo, Dumars (6'3 maybe), John Starks, Reggie Miller, etc...maybe Drexler was his toughest matchup. So there's a counter to that argument as well. 



True but there is clearly a difference between a guy guarding you contesting your shots, vs a guy noy even defending you at all/not contesting your shots. Ive watched plenty of mj games tv and in person and i cant recall a game where he was left all game unguarded and/or uncontested. And like i said russell, halbrook, and jordon were the only ones who guarded him and russell was the only player who contested his shots.
  

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

 

[onionslice]

Originally Posted by MBen32

No.

But the "mystique" is what makes it hard for anyone to put up a debate of anyone being better, or for anyone dethroning him from that position of being the GOAT.

Let someone come close to what he's done then we can see if it's just mystique.

 

[onionslice]

Originally Posted by MBen32

No.

But the "mystique" is what makes it hard for anyone to put up a debate of anyone being better, or for anyone dethroning him from that position of being the GOAT.

Let someone come close to what he's done then we can see if it's just mystique.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.

QFT lebron modestly is 270 which is bigger the wilt russsel etc almost all the dominate centers outside of shaq, and without an argument quicker and faster stronger then any of those players, so physical play def wouldnt work. No way a player that weighs less is weaker slower (no its not a word) beat a person in a physicality battle.
  

 

[ldj]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.

QFT lebron modestly is 270 which is bigger the wilt russsel etc almost all the dominate centers outside of shaq, and without an argument quicker and faster stronger then any of those players, so physical play def wouldnt work. No way a player that weighs less is weaker slower (no its not a word) beat a person in a physicality battle.
  

 

[prostaffer]

 

[prostaffer]

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.

You're overrating his isolation scoring ability; he was merely above average this year, less than a point per possession. You can't say he would have scored more, that's pure speculation. How he would have fared against those Bad-Boy era Pistons, or the Riley-led Knicks, I wonder? Besides, a lot of the perceived general improvement in defense are not improvements at all, just a product of the times. How much better would the defenses of the 80s and 90s be if they had the film technology they have today? Or the statistical departments? Synergy sports?

 

[abovelegit1]

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Also the romanticizing of the hand check era is particularly loathsome, defenses I believe are better, more complex and more difficult for one single player to dominate and dismantle. the 03 spurs, 04 pistons are some of the best defense ever, the idea that Jordan would score 50 as some morons have said is absurd.

Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.

You're overrating his isolation scoring ability; he was merely above average this year, less than a point per possession. You can't say he would have scored more, that's pure speculation. How he would have fared against those Bad-Boy era Pistons, or the Riley-led Knicks, I wonder? Besides, a lot of the perceived general improvement in defense are not improvements at all, just a product of the times. How much better would the defenses of the 80s and 90s be if they had the film technology they have today? Or the statistical departments? Synergy sports?

 

[onionslice]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1


Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.

You're overrating his isolation scoring ability; he was merely above average this year, less than a point per possession. You can't say he would have scored more, that's pure speculation. How he would have fared against those Bad-Boy era Pistons, or the Riley-led Knicks, I wonder? Besides, a lot of the perceived general improvement in defense are not improvements at all, just a product of the times. How much better would the defenses of the 80s and 90s be if they had the film technology they have today? Or the statistical departments? Synergy sports?

Good point........ BUT. Remember, both teams get to play defense. Do you really want LeBron angry when he's gonna be checking you when you have the ball with 90's D?

 

[onionslice]

Originally Posted by abovelegit1

Originally Posted by Osh Kosh Bosh

Originally Posted by abovelegit1


Believe what you want, but allowing some of the greatest physical specimens on Earth to check you with their arms and hands is more effective at stopping someone from scoring than any tactical advancements made in defensive strategy during the past few years.

Totally disagree, i believe removing illegal defense and making it more easier to put multiple defenders on a player is more effective than hand checks, you can grab LeBron James as much as you want but ANYONE, one on one with LBJ is toast. Period. LBJ would score more in the 90's than now, defenses are better.

You're overrating his isolation scoring ability; he was merely above average this year, less than a point per possession. You can't say he would have scored more, that's pure speculation. How he would have fared against those Bad-Boy era Pistons, or the Riley-led Knicks, I wonder? Besides, a lot of the perceived general improvement in defense are not improvements at all, just a product of the times. How much better would the defenses of the 80s and 90s be if they had the film technology they have today? Or the statistical departments? Synergy sports?

Good point........ BUT. Remember, both teams get to play defense. Do you really want LeBron angry when he's gonna be checking you when you have the ball with 90's D?

 

[prostaffer]

point taken, but I can rarely remember MJ ever become a shrinking violet when his team needed him.

The Jordan mystique comes from one thing...

As a player in a Chicago Bulls uniform, Michael Jordan was the only athlete to never disappoint anybody.

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by illmatic34

Jordan was the best combination of an all around game, personal accolades, and performance.

This. And he was just soooo damn smooth.

Because what illmatic said, I think it's easy to say Jordan is the greatest ever, but it's really really hard to do that in basketball. Positions are just so different and can mean many different things for a team.

  

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by illmatic34

Jordan was the best combination of an all around game, personal accolades, and performance.

This. And he was just soooo damn smooth.

Because what illmatic said, I think it's easy to say Jordan is the greatest ever, but it's really really hard to do that in basketball. Positions are just so different and can mean many different things for a team.

  

 

[prostaffer]

point taken, but I can rarely remember MJ ever become a shrinking violet when his team needed him.

The Jordan mystique comes from one thing...

As a player in a Chicago Bulls uniform, Michael Jordan was the only athlete to never disappoint anybody.

 

[ldj]

Prostaffer wrote:

---

point taken, but I can rarely remember MJ ever become a shrinking violet when his team needed him.

The Jordan mystique comes from one thing...

As a player in a Chicago Bulls uniform, Michael Jordan was the only athlete to never disappoint anybody.


   pippen never disappointed

 

[ldj]

Prostaffer wrote:

---

point taken, but I can rarely remember MJ ever become a shrinking violet when his team needed him.

The Jordan mystique comes from one thing...

As a player in a Chicago Bulls uniform, Michael Jordan was the only athlete to never disappoint anybody.


   pippen never disappointed

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

point taken, but I can rarely remember MJ ever become a shrinking violet when his team needed him.

The Jordan mystique comes from one thing...

As a player in a Chicago Bulls uniform, Michael Jordan was the only athlete to never disappoint anybody.

yeah go watch them early piston series do you really think he scored over 30 every playoff game back then? So Lebron has a couple bad playoff games and he shrinks under pressure but because jordan did what he did you forget that he did have bad games, we just dont talk about em and after Lebron wins multiple titles we will forget about those couple bad games... if the Heat play Defense like this all next year you can say BYE-Bye to that 72 game bulls record...

 

[daiernchef]

Originally Posted by Prostaffer

point taken, but I can rarely remember MJ ever become a shrinking violet when his team needed him.

The Jordan mystique comes from one thing...

As a player in a Chicago Bulls uniform, Michael Jordan was the only athlete to never disappoint anybody.

yeah go watch them early piston series do you really think he scored over 30 every playoff game back then? So Lebron has a couple bad playoff games and he shrinks under pressure but because jordan did what he did you forget that he did have bad games, we just dont talk about em and after Lebron wins multiple titles we will forget about those couple bad games... if the Heat play Defense like this all next year you can say BYE-Bye to that 72 game bulls record...

 

[winged wheel]

Originally Posted by LDJ

Prostaffer wrote:

---

point taken, but I can rarely remember MJ ever become a shrinking violet when his team needed him.

The Jordan mystique comes from one thing...

As a player in a Chicago Bulls uniform, Michael Jordan was the only athlete to never disappoint anybody.

   pippen never disappointed

Before Pippen had ever won a championship, his defining postseason moment came in 1990 when a migraine headache kept him out of a Game 7 loss against the Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Conference finals.

"Well, there's always a little bit of regret. But things happen in life, different situations, and that was just a learning situation for me," Pippen told ESPN.com. "From the migraine to sitting out the 1.8, I learned to be better about taking care of my body and preparing myself to be a professional every day."

Yeah, Pippen never disappointed.

 

[winged wheel]

Originally Posted by LDJ

Prostaffer wrote:

---

point taken, but I can rarely remember MJ ever become a shrinking violet when his team needed him.

The Jordan mystique comes from one thing...

As a player in a Chicago Bulls uniform, Michael Jordan was the only athlete to never disappoint anybody.

   pippen never disappointed

Before Pippen had ever won a championship, his defining postseason moment came in 1990 when a migraine headache kept him out of a Game 7 loss against the Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Conference finals.

"Well, there's always a little bit of regret. But things happen in life, different situations, and that was just a learning situation for me," Pippen told ESPN.com. "From the migraine to sitting out the 1.8, I learned to be better about taking care of my body and preparing myself to be a professional every day."

Yeah, Pippen never disappointed.