Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[me love nutella]

So Trump and the like are monsters, but not Democrats and Liberals committing genocide and head of the Empire as the imperialist superpower just because they say it with a smile instead of outright like Trump and his cronies?

 

[earldagoat]

 

[DLF]

they def have videos of this guy ******* a 10 year old

 

[DLF]

“keep on rockin in the free world!!!”

 

[earldagoat]

look it’s the good guys!








two cheeks of the same ***.

nothing is different in their message, just how it’s said (between Guiliani and Clinton)

 

[Belgium]

Methodical Management
As expected, DLF is ducking your very simple question. Any time he is confronted with a serious question, he hides from it. Throughout this pattern of behavior, he used to actually answer at times but would completely ignore the question and ramble about something else.
At what point does this repeated ducking of any serious question, especially yours, border on trolling?

Everyone else in the thread can and regularly do engage in civil discussions. Yet DLF is the sole person in this entire thread who refuses to behave like an adult. Any serious attempt at discussion results in him ducking the question or going on an unrelated ramble.

 

[Belgium]

So Trump and the like are monsters, but not Democrats and Liberals committing genocide and head of the Empire as the imperialist superpower just because they say it with a smile instead of outright like Trump and his cronies?

No reasonable person would conclude that Democrats are somehow exempt from their contributions to the genocide. However the only pro-Palestine members of Congress are Democrats.
Trump has made it very clear that he'll gladly support Netanyahu with even more arms deals and doesn't even acknowledge Israel's wrongdoing. In his first term he was by far the most pro-Israel president the US has ever had. In fact he's repeatedly been complaining that the Biden/Harris aren't pro-Israel enough in his view.
Biden and now Harris are very far from ideal but that's the unfortunate reality of politics.

Given the current administration's continued contribution to the genocide through arms deals etc, what do you think Trump intends to do? After all, he claims that's not pro-Israel enough and paints himself as the ultimate ally for Netanyahu.
Additionally he has also pledged to reinstate the muslim ban to refuse asylum seekers from "terror-infested areas like the Gaza strip", as he nicely worded it.

https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/g-s1-23859/trump-jewish-voters-israel-election-2024

What about the foreign university students that partake in pro-Palestine protests? They're gonna need to pack their bags and prepare for a one way trip home for not bending the knee to Israel.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/27/trump-donors-israel-gaza-palestinian-protests

It's fine to likewise see Harris as evil, but it is completely undisputable that he intends to make the situation even worse for Palestinians. No reasonable dispute whatsoever.
So in case you are a single issue voter that cares only about Gaza and none of the domestic policy differences, it's very obvious who is the lesser evil.

 

[Methodical Management]

I agree with every point you made here, though I think you missed that I made that analogy solely for DLF, who appears to be a single issue pro-Palestine Jill Stein voter.
The choice of who to vote for in this election is incredibly simple, but as I'm sure you've noticed in talking to DLF , such simple logic appears to be something he is incapable of or for some reason unwilling to engage or accept.
So I wanted to see how he would respond to that logic test. The point of the people on the tracks was not that there is an "acceptable amount of deaths", it was to illustrate that Israel will proceed to kill more people regardless of which action taken, but that one path is very obviously more deadly than the other.

Based on DLF 's prior interactions, he is going to ignore every single aspect of your post and stick to voting for Jill Stein while still proclaiming to be pro-Palestine.
Normally I wouldn't make that analogy either. It shouldn't be necessary. However DLF refuses to accept or engage even the most simplistic explanation. He'll dismiss everything in your post too.
That is why I wanted to use a thought experiment to see how he processes logic.

I understand your frustration, but if you take a step back I think you’ll recognize that a White guy browbeating someone who claims a genuine tie to the region is not a good look. When’s the last time you saw that strategy work?

I think it’s important for people to keep in mind who will primarily be responsible for the election of Donald Trump. In 2016, 53% of men who voted did so for Trump. More White women voted for Trump than Hilary Clinton, a White woman. The majority of voters over the age of 40 voted for Trump. We’re all accountable for our choices, but disproportionately blaming a minority portion of a minority group is scapegoating.



It is not difficult to understand why anyone would be so disgusted by what Bill Clinton just said, or what the Biden administration has done to support Israel, that they would want nothing to do with the Democratic Party.

As Dr. King said, “in the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” When push came to shove, centrist democrats showed where their loyalties lay, and the desire to rescind support for or even punish that group is not difficult to understand.

With respect to priorities, though, what I would ask is whether we’re more interested in attempting to prevent further suffering/loss of life or to punish false/fair weather “allies” out of spite/retribution.


How will ensuring the election of Netanyahu’s preferred Presidential candidate help Palestinian people? Is that not the goal here?

I have yet to hear a single satisfying answer.

 

[Belgium]

I understand your frustration, but if you take a step back I think you’ll recognize that a White guy browbeating someone who claims a genuine tie to the region is not a good look. When’s the last time you saw that strategy work?

I think it’s important for people to keep in mind who will primarily be responsible for the election of Donald Trump. In 2016, 53% of men who voted did so for Trump. More White women voted for Trump than Hilary Clinton, a White woman. The majority of voters over the age of 40 voted for Trump. We’re all accountable for our choices, but disproportionately blaming a minority portion of a minority group is scapegoating.



It is not difficult to understand why anyone would be so disgusted by what Bill Clinton just said, or what the Biden administration has done to support Israel, that they would want nothing to do with the Democratic Party.

As Dr. King said, “in the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.” When push came to shove, centrist democrats showed where their loyalties lay, and the desire to rescind support for or even punish that group is not difficult to understand.

With respect to priorities, though, what I would ask is whether we’re more interested in attempting to prevent further suffering/loss of life or to punish false/fair weather “allies” out of spite/retribution.


How will ensuring the election of Netanyahu’s preferred Presidential candidate help Palestinian people? Is that not the goal here?

I have yet to hear a single satisfying answer.

Like you stated, those third party voters are only a tiny fraction of the totality of voters. More often that not, they have no substantial impact on the election. Ralph Nader's spoiler campaign however shows the potential result of inaction.

It's very understandable why someone would view Democrats similarly negative for reasons I have pointed out as well.
That's a very logical view to have, especially with Bill Clinton's remarks but long before that as well. Simply the Biden administration's arms deals with Israel is sufficient in my view to come to such a conclusion. After all, that is indirectly aiding the genocide. My country is complicit as well.

I'm not sure if you're implying that my criticism of solely DLF is "disproportionately blaming a minority group". If it is, I disagree with that characterization.
As far as I know, there are no Trump voters in this thread and everyone else here is perfectly capable of engaging in genuine civil discussion regardless of eachother's views.

If DLF wants to vote for Jill Stein, fine, that's his choice. Given that he has repeatedly falsely slandered other users of being "zionists" or "pro-genocide" for disagreeing with him on something, I find it rather disrespectful for him to then refuse to engage in any substantive discussion, especially your question.

 

[Methodical Management]

Like you stated, those third party voters are only a tiny fraction of the totality of voters. More often that not, they have no substantial impact on the election. Ralph Nader's spoiler campaign however shows the potential result of inaction.

It's very understandable why someone would view Democrats similarly negative for reasons I have pointed out as well.
That's a very logical view to have, especially with Bill Clinton's remarks but long before that as well. Simply the Biden administration's arms deals with Israel is sufficient in my view to come to such a conclusion. After all, that is indirectly aiding the genocide. My country is complicit as well.

I'm not sure if you're implying that my criticism of solely DLF is "disproportionately blaming a minority group". If it is, I disagree with that characterization.
As far as I know, there are no Trump voters in this thread and everyone else here is perfectly capable of engaging in genuine civil discussion regardless of eachother's views.

Anyone who follows the political discussion thread would see that you’re not singling out Palestine protest voters/non-voters, but not everyone frequents both threads. It’s worth situating your criticism.

I mentioned the 2000 election in a previous post, because we do have “natural experiments” for the spoiler strategy.

In theory, it may be supposed to move the Overton window, but in practice it’s helped perpetuate this cycle of Republican presidents setting fire to everything, poor primary turnout producing a centrist Democratic Party nominee, who is then blamed for failing to clean up fast enough after the previous administration and not progressive enough for primary non-voters, a low turnout election installs another Republican, rinse, repeat.

In practice, it’s voting for non-viable general election candidates or sitting out “on principle” has been less a show of power than privilege - people far removed from the worst consequences of the election acting out of spite in ways that punish not the “party elites” but the most marginalized members of our society and our world.


I fail to see how more of this helps anyone:

A Texas Woman Died After Waiting 40 Hours for Miscarriage Care

Josseli Barnica is one of at least two pregnant Texas women who died after doctors delayed emergency care. She’d told her husband that the medical team said it couldn’t act until the fetal heartbeat stopped.

www.propublica.org

 

[Belgium]

Anyone who follows the political discussion thread would see that you’re not singling out Palestine protest voters/non-voters, but not everyone frequents both threads. It’s worth situating your criticism.

I mentioned the 2000 election in a previous post, because we do have “natural experiments” for the spoiler strategy.

In theory, it may be supposed to move the Overton window, but in practice it’s helped perpetuate this cycle of Republican presidents setting fire to everything, poor primary turnout producing a centrist Democratic Party nominee, who is then blamed for failing to clean up fast enough after the previous administration and not progressive enough for primary non-voters, a low turnout election installs another Republican, rinse, repeat.

In practice, it’s voting for non-viable general election candidates or sitting out “on principle” has been less a show of power than privilege - people far removed from the worst consequences of the election acting out of spite in ways that punish not the “party elites” but the most marginalized members of our society and our world.


I fail to see how more of this helps anyone:

A Texas Woman Died After Waiting 40 Hours for Miscarriage Care

Josseli Barnica is one of at least two pregnant Texas women who died after doctors delayed emergency care. She’d told her husband that the medical team said it couldn’t act until the fetal heartbeat stopped.

www.propublica.org

If memory serves me correctly, he wasn't the only one in this thread expressing a desire to vote third party or abstain. The difference is that everyone else is willing and capable of engaging in civil discussion.