Israel declares War - Destruction of Gaza / Growing conflict in Middle East

[osh kosh bosh]

Also, genocide also refers to killing a large number of a group of people; so I think it's fair to say that indiscriminately bombing and killing over 11,000 people in a given state fares as genocidal

It doesn't.

By that logic. Literally any war with lots of deaths on either side is a genocide. That's obviously not true.

It's killing a lot of people with the INTENT to eradicate an ethnic group that makes it a genocide.

Again words have specific meaning. Genocide is not "kill a lot of people".

 

[osh kosh bosh]

This is Israel's prime minister.... In the past year there's been a surplus of of discussions around celebrities words & how it could ignite major violence towards the Jewish Community, but the prime Minister Essentially Calling for Holy War on Palestinians is "overheated" ?

I genuinely get that those who are truly antisemetic will try to use Israel's recent actions to fuel their hate further, there's no debating that. However I can't let a minorities hateful & skewed views take away from the truth of any situation.

And the truth is Jewish leaders & politicians have been committing a slow genocide of these people for YEARS, that shouldn't reflect on Every person of Jewish Descent, the same way the US government terrorizes countries all over the world & i wouldn't want inhabitants of those countries to feel like the majority of Americans agree with those actions.

With that said Israels leadership is committing straight up criminal & evil actions & i'm not gonna sugar coat their actions because some other group of idiots will try to use it to justify their hate of all Jewish people

None of this refutes what I said.

Again don't need to make up a new meaning for word to say that's bad/immoral.

You don't need to sugar coat anything but you also don't need to pretend genocide has some new meaning that it doesn't actually have.

 

[trynafeelmink]

Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

You got it bro

 

[osh kosh bosh]

with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Again, if your aim is to destroy that group, but your country is 20% of that group. There are political parties within your country that are allowed to operate with that group. And you have a peace treaty with a country that is 60% that group.

If your intent is to destroy that group but you don't do anything thing to ones that are inside your own country. Nd you make peace with other other ones.

It's hard to believe that your intent is to destroy that group. So clearly the critical factor movitvating Israel is not the Palestinian ethnicity.

No need to stretch definitions because you can't think of more words to say "that's really bad"

 

[onthenephs]

What are we arguing here? That Israel isn’t committing genocide? and doesn’t want all the land in that area?

It’s clear they they have talked about owning 100% of it many times.

So point 2, what happens to all the people living on that land? Let’s kick em out to bordering countries, look how even bordering Arab countries won’t help displace millions, shame on them.

Ok fine, no one will take them, we’re just going to kill them all.

So their intent is to own 100% of the land and to do that they need to kill all the people living on it. Got it. Seems like ethnic cleansing and genocide to me.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

What are we arguing here? That Israel isn’t committing genocide? and doesn’t want all the land in that area?

ethnic cleansing =/= genocide

one generally follows the other but not always.

It’s clear they they have talked about owning 100% of it many times.

well who is "they" it's a democracy. There are some with that intent, others that favour two states. ect
I think Bibi wants the status quo to continue forever as they entrench illegal settlements. is that a "geoncide" nah I don't think so.

So point 2, what happens to all the people living on that land? Let’s kick em out to bordering countries, look how even bordering Arab countries won’t help displace millions, shame on them.

Ok fine, no one will take them, we’re just going to kill them all.

So their intent is to own 100% of the land and to do that they need to kill all the people living on it. Got it. Seems like ethnic cleansing and genocide to me.

Yah I don't think there intent is to kill everyone living there.
there are far more efficient ways to do that if that is the intent.

Like is the intent of the Arab states to kill everyone living there?
they won't help them, won't resettle them, won't give them passports and they keep them in refugee camps in squalid conditions?
seems like they want them there to die in order to make Israel look bad.

is that a genocide? or do they have other motivations?

 

[ahat]

Yah I don't think there intent is to kill everyone living there.

Lol

 

[smedroc]

Was the holocaust a genocide or does it not qualify because the Nazi's let some Jewish folks live?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Was the holocaust a genocide or does it not qualify because the Nazi's let some Jewish folks live?

this response reveals the frailty of your argument.

if Nazi's left the entire Jewish population in Germany alone, made peace with majority Jewish nations.
and Jewish deaths were the result of civilian casualties and one particular region. then yah maybe you'd have an argument about it being analogous.

but you don't so you gotta retreat to a vague statement that purposely obscures the details.

The question you should ask yourself, is why is it that we don't call the bombing of Britain by the Nazi's during the blitz as a "genocide"?

- lots of civillians died
- targeted campaign against a specific nation / people.
- done with the intent to kill civilian's

because it wasn't done with the intent to eliminate the british people.
It was done to get the British public to exhort their governments to sure for peace with Germany.

things can be bad, horrifying, immoral, kill lots of people ect.
doesn't mean it's automatically a genocide.

 

[moderndarwin]

Semi-tangent here but this question occurred to me as I’ve gotten further along in learning - is it possible for Muslims to truly peacefully co-exist with other faiths and religions and perspectives that come as a core foundational principles of most Western societies?

 

[DripNick]

Semi-tangent here but this question occurred to me as I’ve gotten further along in learning - is it possible for Muslims to truly peacefully co-exist with other faiths and religions and perspectives that come as a core foundational principles of most Western societies?

Muslims been peacefully co-existing with other abrahamic religions (and others) in some regions of the world for a while, centuries in some instances.
Sorry if not the case but your question sounds mad islamophobic

 

[moderndarwin]

Muslims been peacefully co-existing with other abrahamic religions (and others) in some regions of the world for a while, centuries in some instances.
Sorry if not the case but your question sounds mad islamophobic

interesting where? Apologies i’m not sure how to more tactfully ask the question. From what I gather even moderate Muslims are foundationally against other religions or non religious people exist in a live and let live mentality.

The co-existing seems to happen when they (Muslims) are the minority and can’t tie religion and governance together. What countries are predominantly majority Muslim with a government that allows and advocates for full freedom of choice for religious and other behaviors (like drinking, premarital sex, etc)?

Edit: I’m not looking for a religious debate i’m just coming at this from the angle of why it seems like a lot of Western people are so hesitant to condemn Israel. There is a shared value structure. And aligning with Muslims who fundamentally believe in different principles is a hurdle that a lot of people cannot or aren’t willing to overcome.

 

[smedroc]

this response reveals the frailty of your argument.

if Nazi's left the entire Jewish population in Germany alone, made peace with majority Jewish nations.
and Jewish deaths were the result of civilian casualties and one particular region. then yah maybe you'd have an argument about it being analogous.

but you don't so you gotta retreat to a vague statement that purposely obscures the details.

The question you should ask yourself, is why is it that we don't call the bombing of Britain by the Nazi's during the blitz as a "genocide"?

- lots of civillians died
- targeted campaign against a specific nation / people.
- done with the intent to kill civilian's

because it wasn't done with the intent to eliminate the british people.
It was done to get the British public to exhort their governments to sure for peace with Germany.

things can be bad, horrifying, immoral, kill lots of people ect.
doesn't mean it's automatically a genocide.

You call the perceived argument frail and in the next breath you draw a parallel between WW2 Britain and Gaza?

 

[smedroc]

Semi-tangent here but this question occurred to me as I’ve gotten further along in learning - is it possible for Muslims to truly peacefully co-exist with other faiths and religions and perspectives that come as a core foundational principles of most Western societies?

Of course man.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You call the perceived argument frail and in the next breath you draw a parallel between WW2 Britain and Gaza?

1. you brought up the Holocaust and the Nazi's

2. if it's so frail it should be easy to dismantle.

 

[moderndarwin]

Of course man.

same question as to the person:

The co-existing seems to happen when they (Muslims) are the minority and can’t tie religion and governance together. What countries are predominantly majority Muslim with a government that allows and advocates for full freedom of choice for religious and other behaviors (like drinking, premarital sex, etc)?

 

[me love nutella]

It doesn't.

By that logic. Literally any war with lots of deaths on either side is a genocide. That's obviously not true.

It's killing a lot of people with the INTENT to eradicate an ethnic group that makes it a genocide.

Again words have specific meaning. Genocide is not "kill a lot of people".

But there is intent.

The Israeli politicians are saying out loud and proud and that's makes it extra unique how it's clear cut genocide.

They have been and are eradicating Palestinians right now at an unprecedented level.

 

[me love nutella]

same question as to the person:

The co-existing seems to happen when they (Muslims) are the minority and can’t tie religion and governance together. What countries are predominantly majority Muslim with a government that allows and advocates for full freedom of choice for religious and other behaviors (like drinking, premarital sex, etc)?

In some Muslim countries, that does happen though, people drink and have premarital sex, and you're not judged on it if you're not Muslim.

Also, what's considered Muslim and Middle Eastern values is that its very orthodox in the culture.

There's some families that are liberal while there are other values that are more orthodox.

Also, some of these conditions you mentioned predate Islam.

Middle Eastern countries tend to be enforced via paternalism and tribalism in its culture.

I do think that its imperialist history has made it more radicalized and push to more what's considered anti Western philosophy.

 

[degenerate423]

 

[moderndarwin]

In some Muslim countries, that does happen though, people drink and have premarital sex, and you're not judged on it if you're not Muslim.

Also, what's considered Muslim and Middle Eastern values is that its very orthodox in the culture.

There's some families that are liberal while there are other values that are more orthodox.

Also, some of these conditions you mentioned predate Islam.

Middle Eastern countries tend to be enforced via paternalism and tribalism in its culture.

I do think that its imperialist history has made it more radicalized and push to more what's considered anti Western philosophy.

sorry if i’m being ignorant but what countries are those? there is a difference between being judged and the generally accepted rule of law though. Where is it both legal from a governance perspective and actually practiced from a real people perspective.

not to make this too political but I think that’s the internal enemy we’re battling against here in the US - very fundamental Christian ideology with the thought of bringing church and state closer together - and to have governance predicated on their interpretation.

Anecdotally, most of the close friends I have that are of the faith are generally “bad” muslims who don’t practice most of the customs like praying multiple times a day, head coverings for women, don’t follow halal food consumption or Ramadan etc. They are only Muslim by customs and because of family and extended family perspective. Most of the more moderate Muslims i’ve gotten to know have chosen to not associate with most of us more western mentality people because they have such a different set of rules for living life that’s it’s hard to find any middle ground medium for hanging out. Exception being b-ball which is what everyone agrees on and all these differences don’t matter.

 

[gry60]

But there is intent.

The Israeli politicians are saying out loud and proud and that's makes it extra unique how it's clear cut genocide.

Exactly.

To be specific, their politicians have acknowledged that Israel needs the guarantee of numerical superiority of the Jewish population within their country.

This is why, unlike traditional colonial powers, Israel isn't merely taking over Palestinian territories; they have to reduce the number of Palestinians living on the land before taking ownership of it, either by driving them out (ethnic cleansing) or otherwise (death at the hand to the IDF or settlers).

 

[HNL HI]

lots of genocide sympathizers in here

 

[DLF]

Was watching YouTube and a commercial for the IDF came on. Wow. “IdF take care of civilians…”

 

[osh kosh bosh]

But there is intent.

The Israeli politicians are saying out loud and proud and that's makes it extra unique how it's clear cut genocide.

They have been and are eradicating Palestinians right now at an unprecedented level.

again, 20% of Isreal is Palestinian, 60% of Jordan is Palestinian. If there intent is to destroy the Palestinian people. why do they do nothing to their own Palestinian minority and why do they sign peace agreements with Jordan?

Exactly.

To be specific, their politicians have acknowledged that Israel needs the guarantee of numerical superiority of the Jewish population within their country.

This is why, unlike traditional colonial powers, Israel isn't merely taking over Palestinian territories; they have to reduce the number of Palestinians living on the land before taking ownership of it, either by driving them out (ethnic cleansing) or otherwise (death at the hand to the IDF or settlers).

none of what you've described here is genocide.

if you want to stretch the definition of the term, fine be my guess, but don't pretend like you aren't stretching it.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

lots of genocide sympathizers in here

you are just doing the flipside of what Zionists do with anti-semtism.

You use the word genocide because you want all disagreement to painted as "genocide sympathy"

it's just another tactic to avoid debate.