Lets Discuss The Industry

[mp23]

Haha well I guess my opinion is getting blasted left and right, hopefully Nike does prove me wrong and makes some inroads into the sport. I never said they would fail; I just said that it would be pretty hard. Somebody has got to play devil's advocate sometime!

 

[flintgrey]

Originally Posted by Crazy EBW

Originally Posted by dtb00201

all i care about is the fact that nike is making GOOD new shoes again....for the first time in about 5 or 6 years i have actually been excited about new designs

I hate the lunar running series, but the designs are all amazing imo. The LunarElite is one of the smoothest looking shoes i've seen in a while.

EBW, I respect your hate, but I have to say I simply love the Lunar stuff. 

Running-wise I am a Bowerman Series disciple and what really blew my mind was last fall watching the Chicago Marathon.  Not only did I see hundreds of folks in the LunarGlide running a 26-mile race, what surprised me was seeing elite runners wearing them.  I was floored.  I found my pair to be very comfortable, but not 26-mile-supportive-comfortable.

Hoops-wise, if I am not in a ZK4, ZS3 or Zoom Flightclub, you will find me in a Hyperdunk. 

 

[penpen]

I'd like to pose a question to some of the people in the industry that might have some insight as to this idea I had regarding the future of footwear development and manufacturing. It's a freaking long read so feel free to disregard if it is too much. =)

I remember watching a vid back around the 2008 Olympics for the introduction of all the new tech Nike was bringing out for the games, where one of the guys that worked on the Flywire concept mentioned that, for all intents and purposes, Flywire would allow for designers to "program" how a shoe comes together instead of a cut and sew. This concept obviously allows for a really efficient shoe to be created with minimal materials to maximize effectiveness as we see in stuff like Zoom Victory Track Spike, Lunar Racers, and shoes like the ZK5. These shoes have uppers that are almost completely made from the Flywire material with key parts made from more traditional materials where necessary resulting in incredibly lightweight footwear.

Recently, Nike ID Bespoke allows for people who are willing to spend large amounts of money on creating a design that is a one off stylish design for a price. I see that from a fashion statement this makes a great deal of sense and very attractive but it always struck me that a more interesting application of the bespoke concept would be to create a performance shoe that is perfectly tuned/fitted to the wearer.

Now this application isn't necessarily for everyone but I feel that there are people out there that would be willing to pay a substantial sum for a perfect fitting shoe. Imagine the ability to laser scan each of your feet and create a pair of shoes that fit perfectly to each one using CAD. No longer do you have the problem of one shoe being a bit looser than the other if you have substantially differently sized feet, no longer would you have a problem worrying if a shoe ran large/small. It would be a shoe tailormade for you and have that elusive perfect fit. A shoe like the ZK5 where the majority of the upper is "programmable" and the remaining portions can use items such as memory foams etc would be a prime candidate for such a project.

I suppose the biggest problems would come from manufacturing the outsole as it wouldn't be the perfect size for each individual and is arguably not "programmable". It isn't like Photoshop where you can just create molds for the outsole based on scaling a shoe in a program as it may be cost prohibitive to manufacture something like that. I suppose you COULD use a rapid prototyping machine but that might just make the cost so astronomically high that no one would ever buy a pair. Instead one could use standard sized outsoles with modifiable anchor points for the upper to allow for a better fit. Now personally not being a biomechanical expert, or materials expert, so I don't know if that would affect the performance of the shoe that drastically.

From a design standpoint as well, the current color blocking methods could be modified to allow for prints on the upper, giving an even more interesting design/color scheme. Of course, you still have the ability to have bespoke materials as well but the idea of printing on a material with a durable ink process is something that is becoming more and more common. A prime example is the AW77 Hoodie Customization Truck, which basically allows for you to get your hoodie to have a personalized look via text or logos etc. I am aware of processes that are similar that allow for designs to be printed on all manner of materials, adding a depth to personalizing a design.

I guess it's an idea that I've actually been thinking about for a really long time and outside of obvious manufacturing issues for certain parts of the shoe, I really couldn't come up with a lot of reasons that would prevent this from being sold. 3 are listed below:

1) Cost for obvious reasons.
2) As has been discussed to death on these boards, the actual effectiveness of Flywire. Can it actually be used in this way effectively for a durable product?
3) The above mentioned issue with custom outsole manufacturing.

Obviously the infrastructure doesn't exist for the manufacture of this kind of product but I'm assuming it is something that you can create for a few hundred pair a year at most initially and slowly ramp up until you can reach economies of scale. Yes this is a really REALLY expensive product, but wouldn't it be cool? =P

Oh and if you bothered to read all of that, thanks for your time and reading the ramblings of a very tired and sleep deprived person. And I probably look like a total idiot to some of you that understand the realities of design and manufacturing. XD I look forward to being flamed taught and put in my place. =P

 

[mister saint laurent]

Originally Posted by dtb00201

all i care about is the fact that nike is making GOOD new shoes again....for the first time in about 5 or 6 years i have actually been excited about new designs

yes! i'd all but given up on ever caring about anything that's come out since maybe 1999, but nike has done a great job of getting me to care about the new stuff. i actually just sold all my retros so i could buy some kobe Vs, skyposites, and jordan 2010s. retros nearly ruined nike basketball IMO and i hope things continue to recover.
  

 

[rockdeep]

Originally Posted by MP23

Haha well I guess my opinion is getting blasted left and right, hopefully Nike does prove me wrong and makes some inroads into the sport. I never said they would fail; I just said that it would be pretty hard. Somebody has got to play devil's advocate sometime!

I agree my man.  Someones gotta do it.. we appreciate you being that sacrificial lamb....lol.. Nah its all good.  I think this is good for keeping the discussion going.  Its good to have different views.  Makes people think.
    
Edit:
Penpen Im going to read what you wrote a couple of times.  It was har dto digest the first time, but after the second reading I think I understood what you were trying to say. Give me some time and I'll respond.

 

[crazy ebw]

Originally Posted by FLINTGREY

Originally Posted by Crazy EBW

Originally Posted by dtb00201

all i care about is the fact that nike is making GOOD new shoes again....for the first time in about 5 or 6 years i have actually been excited about new designs

I hate the lunar running series, but the designs are all amazing imo. The LunarElite is one of the smoothest looking shoes i've seen in a while.

EBW, I respect your hate, but I have to say I simply love the Lunar stuff. 

Running-wise I am a Bowerman Series disciple and what really blew my mind was last fall watching the Chicago Marathon.  Not only did I see hundreds of folks in the LunarGlide running a 26-mile race, what surprised me was seeing elite runners wearing them.  I was floored.  I found my pair to be very comfortable, but not 26-mile-supportive-comfortable.

Hoops-wise, if I am not in a ZK4, ZS3 or Zoom Flightclub, you will find me in a Hyperdunk. 

I hate it for the wrong reasons, i'm just a Brooks junkie when it comes to running shoes. I'm wearing some Avants right now and they're so damn comfortable and eye-popping. I really wanna get a pair of the elites and glides just to kick around in. I told myself I wasn't going to buy anymore Nike running shoes this year but it's not looking good so far. VomeroV is TOO sexy.

I do respect how Nike is trying their hardest to be taken seriously by runners again.

Wasn't happy with lunar in my HDs of ZKIV so I can't get with it in hoops shoes. I'm good with zoom air all day. Hyperdunks are such an awesome design though. Not even the 2010's, the first was just AWESOME.

 

[mp23]

Rock,

Thank you kind sir, I am always willing to spill some blood for the greater good, lol. I really want this thread to continue, its one of the best I have seen on NT in a loooong time.

Penpen, nice post, a lot of thought had to go into that! I am not the best when it comes to manufacturing and design, but your idea sounds plausible, but as you already mentioned, the biggest caveat would be the cost. You said, "Imagine the ability to laser scan each of your feet and create a pair of shoes that fit perfectly to each one using CAD." Now that would be tight! I don't know how many people would spend the cash on doing that but that idea would be amazing, almost like how Nike's athletes get to use the NSRL to really customize their shoes with intense research with computer, laser, biomechanics, etc.

 

[penpen]

MP23,

I wasn't thinking too much of developing a shoe for a particular individual, as the development for that would be far too intense and resource consuming. I guess it was just an idea that I came up with when I went to buy a pair of the Lebron VIIs and discovered that I had to halfsize down just to get a fitting pair compared to the ZKVs. Let alone the fact that Nike Running shoes are usually a halfsize up for me to be comfortable. ARGH! XD


Rock,

Thanks for taking the time to read it over a few times. I've been a lurker on the boards for a few years now and you always seem to give great insight into not only the inner workings over at Beaverton but also thoughts and ideas outside the box that make me always scratch my head and think "huh... why DON'T they do that?" A joke I have with a few friends of mine is that if something makes sense, Nike will somehow manage to do the exact opposite =P. Historically, from the snippets of info you give us via the board, I find this to be true. I remember you mentioning that it was due to egos around campus etc, and I just laugh since being in the entertainment industry and it's the exact reason why the majority of movies/TV shows you see today are utter crap. =P Your opinion on these sorts of discussions is really appreciated and probably the closest to the truth that most of us on the outside will ever see.


On a totally random note, I picked up a pair of Dunkmans and was rather intrigued by the fact that you could see the Air Max unit through the sole and could see how it's constructed with all the vertical channels. I don't remember a shoe having that kind of visibility of the tech in a while (mebbe I'm not as hardcore a shoehead as the rest of you guys =P) but it was definitely a very cool change from the norm. Maybe it's the techie in me but I genuinely feel that what Tinker said years ago is true, that if you SHOW the tech that you have in your shoes, they will become interested and it might lead to more sales. We see it in other places as well, specifically with certain colorways of the Jordan 2010 where you have the translucent outsole where you can see the Zoom Air bag. It isn't something that changes the performance of the shoe but it might make for interesting conversation piece.

 

[rockdeep]

Originally Posted by penpen

I'd like to pose a question to some of the people in the industry that might have some insight as to this idea I had regarding the future of footwear development and manufacturing.

I remember watching a vid back around the 2008 Olympics for the introduction of all the new tech Nike was bringing out for the games, where one of the guys that worked on the Flywire concept mentioned that, for all intents and purposes, Flywire would allow for designers to "program" how a shoe comes together instead of a cut and sew. This concept obviously allows for a really efficient shoe to be created with minimal materials to maximize effectiveness as we see in stuff like Zoom Victory Track Spike, Lunar Racers, and shoes like the ZK5. These shoes have uppers that are almost completely made from the Flywire material with key parts made from more traditional materials where necessary resulting in incredibly lightweight footwear.

Recently, Nike ID Bespoke allows for people who are willing to spend large amounts of money on creating a design that is a one off stylish design for a price. I see that from a fashion statement this makes a great deal of sense and very attractive but it always struck me that a more interesting application of the bespoke concept would be to create a performance shoe that is perfectly tuned/fitted to the wearer.

Now this application isn't necessarily for everyone but I feel that there are people out there that would be willing to pay a substantial sum for a perfect fitting shoe. Imagine the ability to laser scan each of your feet and create a pair of shoes that fit perfectly to each one using CAD. No longer do you have the problem of one shoe being a bit looser than the other if you have substantially differently sized feet, no longer would you have a problem worrying if a shoe ran large/small. It would be a shoe tailormade for you and have that elusive perfect fit. A shoe like the ZK5 where the majority of the upper is "programmable" and the remaining portions can use items such as memory foams etc would be a prime candidate for such a project.

I suppose the biggest problems would come from manufacturing the outsole as it wouldn't be the perfect size for each individual and is arguably not "programmable". It isn't like Photoshop where you can just create molds for the outsole based on scaling a shoe in a program as it may be cost prohibitive to manufacture something like that. I suppose you COULD use a rapid prototyping machine but that might just make the cost so astronomically high that no one would ever buy a pair. Instead one could use standard sized outsoles with modifiable anchor points for the upper to allow for a better fit. Now personally not being a biomechanical expert, or materials expert, so I don't know if that would affect the performance of the shoe that drastically.

From a design standpoint as well, the current color blocking methods could be modified to allow for prints on the upper, giving an even more interesting design/color scheme. Of course, you still have the ability to have bespoke materials as well but the idea of printing on a material with a durable ink process is something that is becoming more and more common. A prime example is the AW77 Hoodie Customization Truck, which basically allows for you to get your hoodie to have a personalized look via text or logos etc. I am aware of processes that are similar that allow for designs to be printed on all manner of materials, adding a depth to personalizing a design.

I guess it's an idea that I've actually been thinking about for a really long time and outside of obvious manufacturing issues for certain parts of the shoe, I really couldn't come up with a lot of reasons that would prevent this from being sold. 3 are listed below:

1) Cost for obvious reasons.
2) As has been discussed to death on these boards, the actual effectiveness of Flywire. Can it actually be used in this way effectively for a durable product?
3) The above mentioned issue with custom outsole manufacturing.

Obviously the infrastructure doesn't exist for the manufacture of this kind of product but I'm assuming it is something that you can create for a few hundred pair a year at most initially and slowly ramp up until you can reach economies of scale. Yes this is a really REALLY expensive product, but wouldn't it be cool? =P

Oh and if you bothered to read all of that, thanks for your time and reading the ramblings of a very tired and sleep deprived person. And I probably look like a total idiot to some of you that understand the realities of design and manufacturing. XD I look forward to being flamed taught and put in my place. =P

  

Pen Im going to break this down to make it easier for me to respond to, cause I see good points all around it and will give my opinion on why not.

it always struck me that a more interesting application of the bespoke concept would be to create a performance shoe that is perfectly tuned/fitted to the wearer.

this application isn't necessarily for everyone

are people out there that would be willing to pay a substantial sum for a perfect fitting shoe
?

the biggest problems would come from manufacturing the outsole as it wouldn't be the perfect size for each individual

  Cost

  is something that you can create for a few hundred pair a year at most initially and slowly ramp up until you can reach economies of scale. Yes this is a really REALLY expensive product, but wouldn't it be cool? =P

Ok.. I took all parts from your question and basically answered them with follow up questions.

Can this be done?  Yes.  Nike takes Molds of all their players foot and Melo was done a few Sigs after he got started.  However, the designer can pretty much design a Footwear product that is custom built around that players foot.  I think if this concept were used to the T, every basketball shoe would resemble a Racing shoe or Aqua Sock.  Is that a bad thing?  Not if you are going for function.

Yet you sort of answered the first part of that.. Looks.  Would this go over with the consumer, year after year?  Well for performance Consumers maybe.. But Nike had been going strictly performance for a while in Basketball and it didn't convey well with the buying public.  They know now, the kicks have to look good as well OFF COURT for them to sell.

To your point, would some folks be interested in such a product that would cost a leg and a few arms???  Probably not enough for Nike to Produce them.  Nike just like Car Manufacturers do up stuff in the Kitchen all the time.  Stuff you see on the Design Renderers Sneaker Art are done up all the time and they just dont make it to production.

Now for the Outsole situation.. I think you build an outsole derived on basic parameters that fit a few custom sizes.  This takes into account Outrigger and Traction pattern for the performance outsole.

I think whoever is Melo's size and wears a 15 and happens to have the same instep and such, has a BEAUTIFUL shoe to wear, but everyone else in every other shoe size has to hope that ride adapts to us.  I guess without rambling, and in simple terms, the economics like you say just arent there nor feasible for production costs vs price they could sell it for.   Now some of us know they do one of one samples all the time.. but they are custom.  They are simply moch ups to give you a guage on what the final production version will look like.

By looking at APL's website and concept they have on the site, I hope they follow the athlete and the foot of the athlete and do something to that affect.  I think a custom LIKE shoe is possible without doing a one of one custom for each athlete.  I just wont share how I think it could be pulled off here for obvious reasons.

 

[penpen]

Ah yes. I had forgotten about the off the court look thing. Hence the Zoom BB1s right? ; ;

I have some ideas myself about how something like you ended your post with would be accomplished but I'm just not up on the materials enough to really have a good sense as as to how feasible it is. When I start hearing things like people finding ways of combining all types of other materials with carbon fiber to get more flexible properties in a traditionally rigid form factor while maintaining the majority of the key elements of CF, it makes you wonder what kind of other combinations you could come up with in other composites/materials. And I'm not talking GRP blends with CF but something a bit more outside of the box with stuff like textiles etc.

You did mention that most of the solutions would end up like an aqua sock if you were looking for pure performance. But why couldnt you use that as a base and add details afterwards? I suppose it does at more weight than trying to integrate it all but I always did wonder why more of the inner bootie style shoes didnt come out (ala the Ultraflights). It just seems like a relatively logical extension to use that as a base and build out for form. To extend your car analogy, if most people would want pure performance, they would probably opt for something like an Ariel Atom or a Lotus 2 Eleven, cars that are almost solely chassis with wheels and an oversized motor with some body panels that are just used for wind. But the same underpinnings can be used with pretty panels to create something like an Elise/Exige. (No full bodied equivalent of an Atom unfortunately =P)

With all that said tho, I do totally understand that this solution is a bit too sterile and may be ultimately limiting in not only design but also accidental performance discoveries. It happens in a lot of fields although fewer and fewer these days it seems. I guess if I can dream about owning a Pagani Zonda some day, I can dream about the possibility of someone creating a hyper expensive shoe that is that perfect fit. =P I really appreciate the time you took to read my madness Rock.

 

[3onpar5]

Although it is not a completely tailored shoe NIKE is taking the ID one step further. Its called the "FlyTrap" You take an all white shoe pick the colors, decals, name etc you want on it and they heat press it (essentailly) right there in the store. Its a pretty cool design feature. I know this does not affect the fit but still another step in the customization direction.

As far as the fit directly to each/certain consumer, although I think a good idea I think the costs involved would be to great for any mass production. I mean arent we talking like $3-500 for one pair? I know sneakerheads pay this but I dont think a general consumer would be that into it, when they could get a "real good fit" for more than half of that.

This idea I believe is like a lot of computer ideas. There are so many futuristic things out there that computers can do, but the cost is holding them back right now. In the future this is a great way to go. Just too soon.

 

[sole investigator]

Going off Rock's and Pen's discussion about customizing the fit of a shoe... as a much simpler idea for this problem, wouldn't it be possible if Nike came out and was open about what shoes are built off the different types of lasts?


Different lasts are used for different sports that can help change the stability, shoe width, instep, toebox sizing, etc., for each shoe.

For basketball, Q-F8, JM1, JM2, JM3, JM4, are different lasts used and this is often imprinted on the shoe horn that comes inside the shoes.

For running/casual, QD-10 may be used.



If consumers could some how find out which last best matches their foot, wouldn't it be easier for them to identify shoes made from the same last? Say, if Nike printed the last on the outside of the box next to the shoe name, shoe size, style/color code?

 

[rockdeep]

Sole you opened up a can right there based off of what Pen was saying... and after I responded to Pen I realized I didn't add the point that.. like cars these days.. I believe footwear is only built to last (no pun intended) a short amount of time.

If the custom idea Pen threw out was doable you could then expect that REAL quality materials would be added to such a quality product... not just materials they tell you that are quality. Trust me. The ACG category gives you some good stuff.. but if you think about it.. why would Performance give you Ultimate Quality in Materials when the life span of the product is quite short?

Pen to your point of building on the Chassis like the aqua sock... and thinking it wouldnt maintain its weight less ness. I for one think Nike is TOO consumed with making the lightest thing instead of making the BEST all around performance footwear. Ive said in threads before, I LIKE knowing my shoe is on my foot. I like feelling like the shoe around me is stable and if I work it hard it wont buckle one way or another. This is a reason the 2k3 was just a great ride for me, even more so than the Zoom BB1.

You would be hard pressed to find a shoe that turned over from a hard cut in those...and you'd be even hard pressed to see the upper crumble.

This Discussion may have legs yet.

 

[3onpar5]

We need to appeal to the "higher ups" or "suits" lol, to make this a sticky! Anybody? Anybody?

 

[penpen]

Sole-

I had no idea that such information was posted on those shoehorns, nor did I know that the different lasts used were even given ID numbers that were available to the general public. Now I feel like such a noob but now I know that there is something I can look for! Assuming the shoes come with those shoe horns and not tissues =P. That is a fantastic bit of insight and I wish they would do EXACTLY what you were talking about.


Rock-

I totally agree with you that to some extent that you would want the feel of support in some measure in your shoes. It's funny that I didn't intend to start this conversation about being a super lightweight shoe but more a fit issue. But the more I look at my post and my responses, I guess I turned it into that on some level. XD Maybe I'm carrying too much from my automotive interests into this. Most car manufacturers seem to be getting the hint that lighter cars will result in better performance by default (see Gordon Murray and Colin Chapman's principles that are being used in Murray's new city car and Lotus respectively). I do 100% agree with you that there is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater though. (See small city car vs Humvee ><)

I never thought I'd really enjoy playing in lowtops as I initially seriously missed the feeling of stability around my ankle, but the last two ZK shoes have made a believer out of me that a lowtop with minimal support from the upper can still be effective if the outriggers and other parts are created properly. Although Kobe did mention at the ZKV launch event here in LA that the ZKVII was more than likely going to take the form of a high/midtop shoe again, do you think that the advent of a competitive lowtop will change the landscape of shoe sales outside of the ZK line? We are seeing lowtop Hyperdunks but I have no idea how well they sell. And with the Bron line and most other shoes still gearing towards the mid-hightop side, I'm wondering if people wouldn't even be interested in a minimalist lowtop shoe if Kobe went back to a hightop.

Obviously I'm speaking of basketball shoes in this case as minimalist shoes in running are already being done in the Free range. I always ponder though how it would feel to play basketball in a pair of Nike Frees made of Flywire... Disaster waiting to happen? Or totally new way to feel basketball? You get the advantage of lateral support with an upper beyond the traditional Free uppers (albeit your foot might turn over as Rock mentioned) but I am sure it would be a very unique feeling.

Perhaps the biggest problem would be the impact of jumping so much without any form of cushioning. Even though it would be cost prohibitive, what it would feel like to wear a Free shoe with individual Zoom airbags in each of the "tiles" in a free sole. Although I think it wouldn't be anywhere near as effective as I assume that the Zoom airbag requires a certain amount of surface area to disperse the impact and tiles that small may negate any possible advantage to the tech. The only other thing I suppose would be adjusted outriggers to allow for some level of stability during harder than normal cuts. I'd bet lots of money that there is a prototype of something somewhere with that exact setup that was either scrapped because it didn't work or was waaaaaaaay too expensive. (I think this seems to be a recurring problem with this thoughts I have in my head... too much cost involved XD) I just realized that you could use Lunar (though I loathe the stuff and its short lifespan) in this application and perhaps get the benefits without the massive costs...

I have some opinions about the materials thing but I'll leave that alone as I have to finish working on some stuff tonight. Also, I'm sorry if I'm pulling this thread a bit too far away from an industry discussion to a tech discussion. And also sorry about my rambling. I get this way when I don't want to work on stuff late at night and ideas just start coming. =P

 

[tokes99]

Originally Posted by penpen

I'd like to pose a question to some of the people in the industry that might have some insight as to this idea I had regarding the future of footwear development and manufacturing. It's a freaking long read so feel free to disregard if it is too much. =)



I remember watching a vid back around the 2008 Olympics for the introduction of all the new tech Nike was bringing out for the games, where one of the guys that worked on the Flywire concept mentioned that, for all intents and purposes, Flywire would allow for designers to "program" how a shoe comes together instead of a cut and sew. This concept obviously allows for a really efficient shoe to be created with minimal materials to maximize effectiveness as we see in stuff like Zoom Victory Track Spike, Lunar Racers, and shoes like the ZK5. These shoes have uppers that are almost completely made from the Flywire material with key parts made from more traditional materials where necessary resulting in incredibly lightweight footwear.



Recently, Nike ID Bespoke allows for people who are willing to spend large amounts of money on creating a design that is a one off stylish design for a price. I see that from a fashion statement this makes a great deal of sense and very attractive but it always struck me that a more interesting application of the bespoke concept would be to create a performance shoe that is perfectly tuned/fitted to the wearer.



Now this application isn't necessarily for everyone but I feel that there are people out there that would be willing to pay a substantial sum for a perfect fitting shoe. Imagine the ability to laser scan each of your feet and create a pair of shoes that fit perfectly to each one using CAD. No longer do you have the problem of one shoe being a bit looser than the other if you have substantially differently sized feet, no longer would you have a problem worrying if a shoe ran large/small. It would be a shoe tailormade for you and have that elusive perfect fit. A shoe like the ZK5 where the majority of the upper is "programmable" and the remaining portions can use items such as memory foams etc would be a prime candidate for such a project.



I suppose the biggest problems would come from manufacturing the outsole as it wouldn't be the perfect size for each individual and is arguably not "programmable". It isn't like Photoshop where you can just create molds for the outsole based on scaling a shoe in a program as it may be cost prohibitive to manufacture something like that. I suppose you COULD use a rapid prototyping machine but that might just make the cost so astronomically high that no one would ever buy a pair. Instead one could use standard sized outsoles with modifiable anchor points for the upper to allow for a better fit. Now personally not being a biomechanical expert, or materials expert, so I don't know if that would affect the performance of the shoe that drastically.



From a design standpoint as well, the current color blocking methods could be modified to allow for prints on the upper, giving an even more interesting design/color scheme. Of course, you still have the ability to have bespoke materials as well but the idea of printing on a material with a durable ink process is something that is becoming more and more common. A prime example is the AW77 Hoodie Customization Truck, which basically allows for you to get your hoodie to have a personalized look via text or logos etc. I am aware of processes that are similar that allow for designs to be printed on all manner of materials, adding a depth to personalizing a design.



I guess it's an idea that I've actually been thinking about for a really long time and outside of obvious manufacturing issues for certain parts of the shoe, I really couldn't come up with a lot of reasons that would prevent this from being sold. 3 are listed below:



1) Cost for obvious reasons.

2) As has been discussed to death on these boards, the actual effectiveness of Flywire. Can it actually be used in this way effectively for a durable product?

3) The above mentioned issue with custom outsole manufacturing.



Obviously the infrastructure doesn't exist for the manufacture of this kind of product but I'm assuming it is something that you can create for a few hundred pair a year at most initially and slowly ramp up until you can reach economies of scale. Yes this is a really REALLY expensive product, but wouldn't it be cool? =P



Oh and if you bothered to read all of that, thanks for your time and reading the ramblings of a very tired and sleep deprived person. And I probably look like a total idiot to some of you that understand the realities of design and manufacturing. XD I look forward to being flamed taught and put in my place. =P

though i'm not AT ALL familiar with all the cost structure involved in building footwear, bespoke footwear it is definitely is doable it, check this out it really depends on the extent to which it would be custom. the reality of it is that the current process for making shoes now is completely adequate enough for most & developing bespoke footwear isn't at all necessary for most & for something to really be scalable you need to have processes that are easily duplicated/replicated; that is in direct contrast with creating a tailored product, at least how i imagine it...though it is something i would LOVE to see happen & it is something that could potentially change the way shoe are built in a pretty fundamental way, especially as far as using rapid prototyping processes/technologies to actually produce toolings, because much of the cost involved in creating footwear can be tied into developing the molds across a full size range for outsoles, with a process like this there are no expensive molds to pay for.

the major difficulties though probably aren't on the production side, they would likely reside with the service part of this equation; because expense is really the only impediment in the way of a consumer model. mainly how & where does a consumer get their foot scanned? how does that information get to the manufacturer? what is the process of building the shoe? how much time is involved from start to finished product? how do you educate people to all the components & their functions for a particular design? what does it mean to have custom "tuned" shoe for one's foot? does the consumer decide or is the data dictate what that optimal shoe is? how does one determine what the alterations they want to make? there is a lot that goes into the shoemaking process, how much control is ceded to the consumer?

can't really speak on how effective flywire is from a technical standpoint, but even if you removed the strands its basically a single (or more likely 2 super thin pieces put together) thin piece of plastic, (doesn't stretch & is fairly stiff which creates a thinner more supportive shell) on about 2/3 of the shoe mostly taking the place of what usually is a package of leather/synthetic, foam, & a lining. it is structurally solid, there aren't a lot of pieces (more pieces can sometime compromise strength) so in general it would definitely seem that the shoes featuring flywire should deliver on being lighter & stronger than a shoe without it (in certain configurations, i.e. hyperdunk, kobe iv & v do seem like they would be better than others like the hyperizes, hypermaxes & lbj vii) though this isn't necessarily the best or only way to create a lightweight shoe...

to expand on the topic of lasts, yes making the last information available (which for most athletic brands last information is somewhat proprietary) to the consumer would provide people with more control of the fit of the shoe (i.e. a wider last vs. a narrower last, or one with a higher instep or more toespring) while would allow for a better fit, it highlights the "shortcomings of what lasts are: a generic footform built to accomodate the a range of feet & shoemaking process not necessarily a specific foot; which would in some way defeat the appeal of being able to create this custom shoe for a specific person...because last are inherently generic, they need to be to fit all the different feet that may wear the shoes they are used to make...though i could imagine a business model where you put a foot scanner the store to replace the the brannock device, giving consumer a supper accurate data measurements of their feet and being able to recommend certain shoes based on that info as a base level of service, which could be the starting point for more in depth bespoke tailoring...

I for one think Nike is TOO consumed with making the lightest thing instead of making the BEST all around performance footwear. Ive said in threads before, I LIKE knowing my shoe is on my foot. I like feelling like the shoe around me is stable and if I work it hard it wont buckle one way or another. This is a reason the 2k3 was just a great ride for me, even more so than the Zoom BB1.


i don't know if you can go back, especially since nike made such a big deal of it; retailers now ask the weight of shoes when they see them. someone who plays ball what matters to them for their kicks and lightweight will be among their first few responses, despite not really knowing what that means...anyway can you look at the 2k3, and tell me that the hyperdunk isn't the evolution of that shoe? beside it not being full length zoom it is pretty much the same shoe, and while lunar may not end up being the answer, it fit the concept and eventually you have to try new things right?...i guess it comes down to how much do the the few ounce that we're typically talking about matter? what is threshold for when a shoe becomes noticeably too heavy? i generally think all things being equal lighter is going to be better, lets not forget shoes obstruct the way our feet are meant to work, so less should be more...how much less? thats the challenge...in ideal world i'd want to feel as if the shoe i was wearing melded with my feet to the point i didn't know i had shoes on, they become one, zen with my shoes!!!

I totally agree with you that to some extent that you would want the feel of support in some measure in your shoes. It's funny that I didn't intend to start this conversation about being a super lightweight shoe but more a fit issue. But the more I look at my post and my responses, I guess I turned it into that on some level. XD Maybe I'm carrying too much from my automotive interests into this. Most car manufacturers seem to be getting the hint that lighter cars will result in better performance by default (see Gordon Murray and Colin Chapman's principles that are being used in Murray's new city car and Lotus respectively). I do 100% agree with you that there is a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater though. (See small city car vs Humvee ><)

I never thought I'd really enjoy playing in lowtops as I initially seriously missed the feeling of stability around my ankle, but the last two ZK shoes have made a believer out of me that a lowtop with minimal support from the upper can still be effective if the outriggers and other parts are created properly. Although Kobe did mention at the ZKV launch event here in LA that the ZKVII was more than likely going to take the form of a high/midtop shoe again, do you think that the advent of a competitive lowtop will change the landscape of shoe sales outside of the ZK line? We are seeing lowtop Hyperdunks but I have no idea how well they sell. And with the Bron line and most other shoes still gearing towards the mid-hightop side, I'm wondering if people wouldn't even be interested in a minimalist lowtop shoe if Kobe went back to a hightop.

Obviously I'm speaking of basketball shoes in this case as minimalist shoes in running are already being done in the Free range. I always ponder though how it would feel to play basketball in a pair of Nike Frees made of Flywire... Disaster waiting to happen? Or totally new way to feel basketball? You get the advantage of lateral support with an upper beyond the traditional Free uppers (albeit your foot might turn over as Rock mentioned) but I am sure it would be a very unique feeling.


the main thing with basketball & tennis shoes as i see it is cushioning along with balancing & controlling lateral movement (though cushioning is a little less important for tennis), tennis players don't wear highs or mids even though it would seem that they could use the protection form an ankle injury because it would limit their mobility(neither do rugby, soccer & some positional football players). the idea of what mids/highs TRY to do for basketball is provide proprioception (knowing the position of your limbs in space relative to your body), in theory by placing something next to your ankles, you will be able to "sense" when they are off balance and naturally react before injury. so when you say you miss the "feeling" of stability, it is really saying is you miss the security of the restriction, however this also restricts movement (sidebar: we once went to see a pretty distinguished trainer that remarked basketball players tend to have weaker ankles BECAUSE of this, so it becomes something of a catch 22...make shoes to protect those weak ankle muscles and contribute to the degradation of said ankles, or make lower cut shoes to help them strengthen by giving more mobility but also---exposing weak ankles!) and the time it takes to an ankle sprain to happen is faster than we can react to correct, which leads to placing more restrictive things around the ankles. this is also made a little worse by the fact that our feet are disconnected from the court, elevated by the midsole, outsole, & sockliner. if kobe were to go back to a more "traditional" height, i would think the discussion of lows as viable hoop shoes would go down to a mumble again because lows were around before kobe made the switch, with folks like bibby, nash, & arenas rockin 'em and it was never as much interest as with the kobes...

i have played basketball in a bunch of different types of shoes, and i would say GENERALLY how a shoe feels when you first put it on is pretty indicative how how it will feel when you play in it, even being worn in there are always exceptions but once you put a shoe on you can sort of tell what could be an issue. i suspect playing in a free based shoe would be super comfortable and you'd be fine...up until you had to quickly change directions, because the midsole is kind of squishy & doesn't wrap the upper, the heel counter isn't as stiff you might be sliding over the midsole because they aren't built for all the side to side motion of basketball which could be feast of famine depending on what your game is, the jet flight is an example of a more robust running shoe built for basketball, being mostly mesh but with a huge midfoot strap and a solid heel counter...i think you are right about cushioning is the big problem with a minimalist shoe approach for basketball, i too have often wondered what a track spike equivalent is for a basketball shoe would be, no extra padding, minimal cushioning, fairly rigid, built for speed! however, you only need to land on your heels a few times to realize playing without cushioning is a BIG DEAL, though minimal cushioning through the forefoot seems like it could work, it certainly would not be as comfortable as a normal basketball shoe...

which bring it back to this custom concept, is one's optimal shoe the most comfortable/best fitting or the one that performs the best? if you look at the things that are built for performance they rarely are the most comfortable, think of sport bikes, racing cockpits, & the like. would you be happy with your custom product if were optimized to your best performing shoe & it was not all that "comfortable?"

this is a good little back & form going on here, some interesting thoughts

 

[penpen]

Tokes-

I hadn't even considered the midsole problem when I was kicking around this idea. Just goes to show why I'm not designing this stuff. =P

My comment about wanting the info on the lasts was not actually for the bespoke concept that I was throwing around but more a general statement. Yes every last is a generic foot representation. But instead of trying out a bunch of shoes when you go to the shoe store every time (maybe that's part of the appeal =P) or more annoyingly, gambling on a sizing situation when ordering online, it takes that part of randomness out of the equation allowing for people to get a shoe that fits them. (half size up, down, true to size or dont even bother =P)

When I initially started the post, I had always envisioned using an existing design that was built from the ground up to be generic in terms of ride but with a scaled size that is custom. I'm assuming that a lot of shoes are CADed so the idea would be similar to running a resize on a photo. In all honesty, I hadn't even considered a custom tuned shoe based on a person's personal traits due to the factors you pointing out of cost. I had always assumed that the cost of a custom upper sizing would have been high enough that anything more would have been cost prohibitive. But after seeing that link you posted, I can see that there may be a viable commercial application for this idea.

The only issue I see with that solution is that for football cleats, you are looking at a very stiff outsole with the spikes being responsible for the traction and the material for that cleat IS the material that is being rapidly prototyped. For this to be usable in basketball, it would have to be a two step process at the very least, with the first step being a rapid prototype of the form that you would cast a mold from, then the second step being the creation of the outsole with rubber etc for the actual outsole that makes it to the end user. I think this goes back to what Rock was saying earlier with the life expectancy of a performance shoe being so short, you wouldn't necessarily want to do this two step process as it would cost a ridiculous amount of money for a one off shoe. Unless you were to buy several pairs and hope that that level of tech is going to be enough to carry you through enough time to amortize your investment into something reasonable.

And yes, zen with shoes sounds really nice! XD It really reminds me of that Nike commercial where the guy had track spikes coming out of his bare feet. =P

 

[tokes99]

Originally Posted by penpen

Tokes-



I hadn't even considered the midsole problem when I was kicking around this idea. Just goes to show why I'm not designing this stuff. =P



My comment about wanting the info on the lasts was not actually for the bespoke concept that I was throwing around but more a general statement. Yes every last is a generic foot representation. But instead of trying out a bunch of shoes when you go to the shoe store every time (maybe that's part of the appeal =P) or more annoyingly, gambling on a sizing situation when ordering online, it takes that part of randomness out of the equation allowing for people to get a shoe that fits them. (half size up, down, true to size or dont even bother =P)



When I initially started the post, I had always envisioned using an existing design that was built from the ground up to be generic in terms of ride but with a scaled size that is custom. I'm assuming that a lot of shoes are CADed so the idea would be similar to running a resize on a photo. In all honesty, I hadn't even considered a custom tuned shoe based on a person's personal traits due to the factors you pointing out of cost. I had always assumed that the cost of a custom upper sizing would have been high enough that anything more would have been cost prohibitive. But after seeing that link you posted, I can see that there may be a viable commercial application for this idea.



The only issue I see with that solution is that for football cleats, you are looking at a very stiff outsole with the spikes being responsible for the traction and the material for that cleat IS the material that is being rapidly prototyped. For this to be usable in basketball, it would have to be a two step process at the very least, with the first step being a rapid prototype of the form that you would cast a mold from, then the second step being the creation of the outsole with rubber etc for the actual outsole that makes it to the end user. I think this goes back to what Rock was saying earlier with the life expectancy of a performance shoe being so short, you wouldn't necessarily want to do this two step process as it would cost a ridiculous amount of money for a one off shoe. Unless you were to buy several pairs and hope that that level of tech is going to be enough to carry you through enough time to amortize your investment into something reasonable.



And yes, zen with shoes sounds really nice! XD It really reminds me of that Nike commercial where the guy had track spikes coming out of his bare feet. =P

i see what you mean, but if you're going to custom, why not go all the way!? it could still be an existing design,, but you would be tailoring the shoe to your specifications. ideally as the 1st step it would be a third party that could provide the scanner, take the data, get last information from brands, and communicate to consumers what lasts are better for their feet. even without those things the concept of a "tunable" shoe is completely possibly and feasible, so the question is still out there: would you be happy with your custom product if were optimized to your best performing shoe & it was not very comfortable?

as it is now, i think that is pretty much how molds are created now; and i believe the investment cost is associated with the molds for complete size runs...so in this world of bespoke footwear, only one mold (maybe 2 depending on the foam)is necessary which could be melted down and reused since there would be no reason to keep it once it were used. or even better if they was a way that the rubber itself was able to be "milled" just like a CnC so theres no need for a mold at all...that'd be cool

 

[penpen]

Tokes-

While I totally feel you in the sentiment of why the hell not make completely customizable, to make the analogy to cars again, I don't think a lot of people have the knowledge to know what works and what doesn't in developing a shoe, similar to how most people who own Ferraris probably have no idea how to change setups on their cars to make it super drivable for them. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, people aren't knowledgeable enough to help develop a tuned shoe for them. And the worst part about this is that you only have one shot at it. When you look at how most athletes develop footwear or racers/teams develop a car, there is a lot of trial and error to find that perfect setting. That is actually why I was primarily looking at the fit side only. As consumers, we are looking to get benefits from all the hours of development by companies to trickle down to us. Why would we throw all of that time and effort away and start over to find that thing again. Then again, I'm sure there are a lot of people who could build a better shoe themselves. (I'm just not one of them =P)

As for CNCing an outsole, that would be freaking amazing. Sure it would only be for very small numbers of shoes but the fact you could get an exacting spec shoe to yourself would be absolutely awesome. Would a laser cutting rapid prototyping machine be able to do that? Or does it change the chemical composition of the rubber due to the high heat?

I took a peek at the APL website and I'm quite intrigued by what they are claiming. I am curious though if they are looking to be a top to bottom solution or if this is more of a test case for their stuff and see if they can sell their tech to someone (how a lot of people in tech develop something niche yet cool and then sell to Google). Then again, if BP is working for them, I can't wait to see the aesthetics of their footwear.

 

[3onpar5]

Holy Crap this slipped to page 3!!!

Ok I was reading the Lebron VII PS thread and it got me wondering...what are the odds that NIKE loks at this as something they do in the future, as in making a shoe with 360 Air for Lebron to wear on court and make the same exact shoe only with zoom air for retail? Seems as though Lebron likes the new 360 Air but as far as casual wear the zoom would look better and feel just as good. Lets be honest there are not alot of 6'8" 280 power forwards buying these shoes at the local mall. So it would make sense to make a shoe for Lebron and then have a shoe that has the same details except for the air.

Good idea? Bad idea? Lets keep discussing.

 

[3onpar5]

Ok this may double post but whatever...

I was looking at the Lebron VII PS thread and it got me thinking, what if NIKE made a shoe for Lebron with the 360 air bag and made the retail version the exact same shoe only with zoom air? I mean there are not alot of 6'8" 280 power forwards going to the local mall to get the new Lebrons. The people that buy the shoe are looking for a casual look as well as a bball shoe, so this would fit perfectly (no pun intended) Most seem to really like the Lebron VII PS and I would be most mere mortals would find the zoom air more comfortable than the 360.

Or maybe make the zoom air the "retail release" and if you want the 360 air bag make it available on NDC.

Just some ideas to keep this thread going.

Good idea? Bad idea? Lets discuss

 

[rockdeep]

Did I miss a press release? Someone else said Bron didnt like Zoom and loves the 360 Air. Where was this said?

 

[duke4005]

Wouldn't be the first time Nike made a sig shoe and then changed cushioning on the exact same shoe for general release. Look at old pictures of Pippen in the Pippen 1. He only had Max Air for about a month, then he wore the Jordan XII and wanted Zoom in his. Boom, same upper and sole, only had Zoom instead of Max. They could conceivably do the same with Lebron. Or just make all sigs like the Elite series of a couple years ago and have 3 options. Only problem is, then is it really a sig, or is it a team? This kills the need for Soldiers or 20-5-5 or any Kobe Dream shoe, because the signature now covers all players. You would also, conceivably, have to have said player appear in all the models, or it will crash and burn like the Kobe II with its 3 editions.

 

[3onpar5]

Nah Rock I didnt know for sure. I was just thinking as more of a future thing. Would it be a good business model to make a "player shoe" and a "retail shoe" This is something that maybe companies have missed in selling "big man" shoes (boy thats a lot of "air quotes" : ) ) Big man shoes has typically sold slower than the guard shoes.

 

[tokes99]

Originally Posted by penpen

Tokes-



While I totally feel you in the sentiment of why the hell not make completely customizable, to make the analogy to cars again, I don't think a lot of people have the knowledge to know what works and what doesn't in developing a shoe, similar to how most people who own Ferraris probably have no idea how to change setups on their cars to make it super drivable for them. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, people aren't knowledgeable enough to help develop a tuned shoe for them. And the worst part about this is that you only have one shot at it. When you look at how most athletes develop footwear or racers/teams develop a car, there is a lot of trial and error to find that perfect setting. That is actually why I was primarily looking at the fit side only. As consumers, we are looking to get benefits from all the hours of development by companies to trickle down to us. Why would we throw all of that time and effort away and start over to find that thing again. Then again, I'm sure there are a lot of people who could build a better shoe themselves. (I'm just not one of them =P)



As for CNCing an outsole, that would be freaking amazing. Sure it would only be for very small numbers of shoes but the fact you could get an exacting spec shoe to yourself would be absolutely awesome. Would a laser cutting rapid prototyping machine be able to do that? Or does it change the chemical composition of the rubber due to the high heat?



I took a peek at the APL website and I'm quite intrigued by what they are claiming. I am curious though if they are looking to be a top to bottom solution or if this is more of a test case for their stuff and see if they can sell their tech to someone (how a lot of people in tech develop something niche yet cool and then sell to Google). Then again, if BP is working for them, I can't wait to see the aesthetics of their footwear.

i would agree that most people that have some super high performance vehicle haven't the slightest clue how to change setups, but they likely all go through (or at least a run through of key point in the owner's manual!) some consultation in the process of buying, where they are informed of certain things or have specific requests made (i.e. leather, woodgrain, or racing seats, height adjustments, suspension setups). i imagine that same sort of process with high performance footwear, where some performance options are made available to those wanting a performance shoe tailored to their specific needs; imagine a performance tailored mi adidas, nikeid, or rbk custom? the testing component could possibly be an issue, but all those hour of testing, research, & development would still be there; in fact it would help determine the very options of which would be the choices...and as an added effect one would emerge from the whole process more knowledgeable about what they put on their feet!

i am pretty sure that none of those processes are not compatible with rubber (or foam), i was just thinking that would be sweet if it were possible & it would make molds unnecessary...