Let's talk about Kobe's legacy......try your hardest to be objective...

[downtown43]

Originally Posted by Ghenges

I think the rape errrrr adultery issue affected him more than people would like to believe. As good as he is now, I think he lost something after that happened.


During the three-peat, you can argue just how important he was to that team until you are blue in the face. However, after you analyze everyone's role on the team, I think it's clear that Shaq was most important during that era.


No let's look at things after the Jordan era - no counting the lock out season* (sorry Knick fans).

From 2000-2002, Shaq was the best player on the planet. FORGET that it was all just brute force and size. That doesn't matter. He was the best and most valuable player on the planet for those 3 years. From 2003-2007, I would give the nod to Tim Duncan. 3 championships in 5 years and playing strong every year earns you that honor. Then in 2007 to present, I think the nod goes to Lebron.

So where is Kobe in all of this? You can argue that he was the second best player next to Shaq, Duncan and Lebron in each of their respected eras.

So what is Kobe's legacy?

He's been the second best player in the league for the last 9 years.

you sound like a hater. second-best player for the last 9 years? even you don't believe that.

Kobe was the best player in the NBA for a solid 4 years out of this decade. EVERYBODY acknowledged it.

for a solid 4 years, you could go to any NBA analyst, any coach, any group of kids on a playground, any random bum on the side of the street, and ask them"who is the best player in the NBA" and they would all answer "Kobe Bryant."

now, more and more people would be saying Lebron, and rightfully so. but to call him "the second best player for the last 9 years" is just ******ed.



edit: not to mention that you said 2007 to the present belongs to Lebron, but unlike Shaq and Duncan he has NOT won a championship yet! so are you reallyspeaking logically by bringing up championships... or are you just hating?

 

[651akathepaul]

Originally Posted by Ghenges

I think the rape errrrr adultery issue affected him more than people would like to believe. As good as he is now, I think he lost something after that happened.


During the three-peat, you can argue just how important he was to that team until you are blue in the face. However, after you analyze everyone's role on the team, I think it's clear that Shaq was most important during that era.


No let's look at things after the Jordan era - no counting the lock out season* (sorry Knick fans).

From 2000-2002, Shaq was the best player on the planet. FORGET that it was all just brute force and size. That doesn't matter. He was the best and most valuable player on the planet for those 3 years. From 2003-2007, I would give the nod to Tim Duncan. 3 championships in 5 years and playing strong every year earns you that honor. Then in 2007 to present, I think the nod goes to Lebron.

So where is Kobe in all of this? You can argue that he was the second best player next to Shaq, Duncan and Lebron in each of their respected eras.

So what is Kobe's legacy?

He's been the second best player in the league for the last 9 years.

Interesting.

 

[mjsaver]

THIS THREAD WILL TURN INTO NOTHING BUT A PLAYGROUND FOR KOBE HATERS...

Who couldnt think objective on their best day...

 

[ag 47]

Kobe is already one of the greatest of all time. There should be no debate in that.

If he were to retire right now and not play another game, he'd go down as the greatest EVER after Mikey J.

The problem is, I don't think he's done winning championships. He has a solid team and legit shot to make the

finals for the next couple of years, not to mention this year.

 

[JD617]

If he were to retire right now and not play another game, he'd go down as the greatest EVER after Mikey J.
So you think Kobe Bryant is the second greatest player of all time right now?

 

[651akathepaul]

30-50 years from now...Kobe the most underrated great ever?

Rationalize with me here. Kobe in due time will be squished between MJ and then "most likely" Lebron. Don't much care for the hypotheticals, butit's interesting to think that if his career spans between these two not to mention his time on top is arguable with the dominance of Shaq then Duncan, itis very possible that Kobe can get lost in the mix.

This year and years to come obviously have a lot to do with how we look at the past in the future, but his rings were, up to this point, only with Shaq. Lebronprobably gets at least 2.

 

[doyung9]

15 minutes left at work, allow me to weigh in.

First off, let's me clear the air with a few facts

- MJ fan. IMO, he's the best ever.
- I was cheering for Boston last year.
- I don't like Kobe as a player but I respect his skill.

That being said...

It depends what happens this year, next year, and the following, because to be honest, that's the rest of his prime. There's no more re-defininghimself. He can't evolve anymore. He won't get more athletic, his jumper can't get any drastically better, and there isn't any one gaping holein his offensive repertoire that can be fixed to make him any better than he is now.

If he never wins another ring, it'll be hard to get past the fact that his only rings came with Shaq. And for the most part, most of the strength of thatargument stems from the fact that once Shaq left, he went and won another ring. Had Shaq never won that ring in Miami, that particular argument wouldn'thave as much steam behind it as it does, but the fact remains to this point that Shaq has 4 rings, Kobe 3 and while they share 3 of those, Shaq won anotherwith a different team.

Aside from that, I can no longer argue or deny the obvious similarities between Kobe and MJ. I won't get into extreme detail because once threads turn into"MJ v. Kobe" objectivity goes out of the window for the most part, but there are a few that will haunt Kobe if he never wins anymore rings. Forexample, it's pretty clear to everyone that Kobe isn't the most desirable teammate in the world. It's been well-documented (and attemptedcounter-documented in Kobe Doin' Work, up for Best Comedy at this years MTV Awards

), but at the same time, neither was Michael Jordan. Read the Jordan Rules, theguy was a +*!# at times and definitely hard on his teammates. The difference is, guys wanted to play with Michael Jordan because they knew that playing withhim meant that the championship was theirs to win. Should Kobe win more rings, one of his negative attributes, his rep. as a bad teammate, will fade intoobscurity.

Also, Kobe doesn't have the machine behind him that MJ did. His marketing team, hell, no athlete's marketing team, is as strong as Jordan's was/is.Air Jordan, Hanes, Wheaties, Gatorade, "if I could be like Mike", Slam w/ M. Jackson, the list goes on. The man could do no wrong. He went throughaffair scandals, gambling scandals, conspiracy theories about his father's death, his divorce, as well as his sister's recent allegations about herfather's conduct, and yet, WE STILL LOVE HIM. An aura has been created around him that allows us to forget his mis-steps and remember him as simply the guywho makes the big shots.

Unfortunately for Kobe, he was involved in one of the very, VERY faux-pas allegations in our society, which is rape. America will forgive and forget alot ofthings, but rape always lingers, and while it's 99% in his past, believe it ruined his reputation for quite some time, as proven in the lost endorsements(I must mention, some of those sponsors are trying to get back on the bandwagon). While his career, marketability wise is back on track, those 2-3 years helost because of the rape scandal, also taking place during a rough part of his career when he just couldn't get it done while he was on his own, havedefinitely created a 'blank space' so to speak in his career.

I'm not completely sure what his legacy will be. Like I said, there's a few years of it still to be written. But as a fan of this great sport we callbasketball, it's undeniable that he will go down as a Top 15 player of all time, Top 10 offensive player of all time, and one of the most exciting playersto ever play the game. Only time will tell.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

As of right now.. If MJ is 100 and Clyde Drexler is 50, Kobe is probably 65-70.

 

[JD617]

But as a fan of this great sport we call basketball, it's undeniable that he will go down as a Top 15 player of all time, Top 10 offensive player of all time, and one of the most exciting players to ever play the game. Only time will tell.
Spot on IMO. I think he's a top 15 player of all time right now, and if he wins a ring without Shaq, he'll move into the top 10. Maybeeven top 5, depending on how his career plays out. I think he has started to decline slightly, but he still has 4-5 good years left. All depends on how hiscareer plays out.

 

[mjshoefanatic]

Originally Posted by AG 47

If he were to retire right now and not play another game, he'd go down as the greatest EVER after Mikey J.

 

[MVP]

We all know Shaq was dominant and in his prime during the 3-peat era and no one could stop him. But even then at ages 21, 22, and 23, KB8 was just starting tobecome that dominant force he is today. Kobe was as essential to LA's title runs as Shaq was they needed each other. Even as the "sidekick" Kobewas able to hold his own on the same floor as the beast known as Shaquille O'Neal. Everyone assumes that since he got the Finals MVPs that it was all Shaqall the time, but if you watched the regular season during that time and the West playoffs leading up to the Finals, you would have seen that they were playingat very similar levels.

Take a look at the numbers (I couldn't get the 1999-2000 ones to show up properly, but you'll get the idea)

2000-2001:
[table][tr][td]
Regular Season
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Player[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]Pts[/td] [td]Min[/td] [td]% FG[/td] [td]% 3pt[/td] [td]% FT[/td] [td]Reb[/td] [td]As[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Shaquille O'Neal[/td] [td]74[/td] [td]28.7[/td] [td]39.5[/td] [td]57.2[/td] [td]0.0[/td] [td]51.3[/td] [td]12.7[/td] [td]3.7[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Kobe Bryant[/td] [td]68[/td] [td]28.5[/td] [td]40.9[/td] [td]46.4[/td] [td]30.5[/td] [td]85.3[/td] [td]5.9[/td] [td]5.0[/td] [/tr][/table]
[table][tr][td]
Playoffs
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Player[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]Pts[/td] [td]Min[/td] [td]% FG[/td] [td]% 3pt[/td] [td]% FT[/td] [td]Reb[/td] [td]As[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Shaquille O'Neal[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]30.4[/td] [td]42.3[/td] [td]55.5[/td] [td]0.0[/td] [td]52.5[/td] [td]15.4[/td] [td]3.2[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Kobe Bryant[/td] [td]16[/td] [td]29.4[/td] [td]43.4[/td] [td]46.9[/td] [td]32.4[/td] [td]82.1[/td] [td]7.3[/td] [td]6.1[/td] [/tr][/table]
[table][tr][td]
Finals against Philadelphia
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Player[/td] [td]PJ[/td] [td]Pts[/td] [td]Min[/td] [td]% FG[/td] [td]% 3pt[/td] [td]% FT[/td] [td]Reb[/td] [td]As[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Shaquille O'Neal[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]33.0[/td] [td]45.0[/td] [td]57.3[/td] [td]0.0[/td] [td]51.3[/td] [td]15.8[/td] [td]4.8[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Kobe Bryant[/td] [td]5[/td] [td]24.6[/td] [td]46.8[/td] [td]41.5[/td] [td]33.3[/td] [td]84.2[/td] [td]7.8[/td] [td]5.8[/td] [/tr][/table]
2001-2002:
[table][tr][td]2002 Regular Season Statistics[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]Rebounds[/td] [td]
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
Player
[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]MPG[/td] [td]FG%[/td] [td]3P%[/td] [td]FT%[/td] [td]OFF[/td] [td]TOT[/td] [td]APG[/td] [td]PPG[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
Shaquille O'Neal
[/td] [td]67[/td] [td]66[/td] [td]36.1[/td] [td].579[/td] [td].000[/td] [td].555[/td] [td]3.50[/td] [td]10.70[/td] [td]3.0[/td] [td]27.2[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
Kobe Bryant
[/td] [td]80[/td] [td]80[/td] [td]38.3[/td] [td].469[/td] [td].250[/td] [td].829[/td] [td]1.40[/td] [td]5.50[/td] [td]5.5[/td] [td]25.2[/td] [/tr][/table]
[table][tr][td]
2002 Lakers Playoffs Statistics
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
Rebounds
[/td] [td]
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
Player
[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]MPG[/td] [td]FG%[/td] [td]3P%[/td] [td]FT%[/td] [td]OFF[/td] [td]TOT[/td] [td]APG[/td] [td]PPG[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
Shaquille O'Neal
[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]40.8[/td] [td].529[/td] [td].000[/td] [td].649[/td] [td]3.50[/td] [td]12.60[/td] [td]2.8[/td] [td]28.5[/td] [/tr][tr][td]Kobe Bryant
[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]19[/td] [td]43.8[/td] [td].434[/td] [td].379[/td] [td].759[/td] [td]1.50[/td] [td]5.80[/td] [td]4.6[/td] [td]26.6[/td] [/tr][/table]
[table][tr][td]2002 Finals Vs. New Jersey Nets Statistics[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]
[/td] [td]Rebounds[/td] [td]
[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
Player
[/td] [td]G[/td] [td]GS[/td] [td]MPG[/td] [td]FG%[/td] [td]3P%[/td] [td]FT%[/td] [td]OFF[/td] [td]TOT[/td] [td]APG[/td] [td]PPG[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
Shaquille O'Neal
[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]41.5[/td] [td].595[/td] [td].000[/td] [td].662[/td] [td]3.30[/td] [td]12.30[/td] [td]3.8[/td] [td]36.3[/td] [/tr][tr][td]
Kobe Bryant
[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]4[/td] [td]43.8[/td] [td].514[/td] [td].545[/td] [td].806[/td] [td].80[/td] [td]5.80[/td] [td]5.3[/td] [td]26.8[/td] [/tr][/table]

So as you can see even with Shaq going ballistic in the Finals against Rik Smits, Todd McCollough, and Deke, young Kobe had comparable numbers and was doingthe thing as well, Shaq deserved those MVPs but without Kobe who I doubt the Lakers would have even made it to the Finals, let alone win it all, and viceversa. You can't have one without the other. So if there's a poster with Shaq holding those 3 Finals MVP trophies, Kobe needs to be in the backgroundas well

.

 

[yungchamp]

he'll be up there

-3 rings
-mvp
-81 points

THE _ SCORED 81 POINTS IN 1 GAME!!! UNDERRATED GREAT? NAAAAAAAAAAAH



I'm not even a kobe fan but got damn that man can straight up hoop..all said and done he'll be top 10

 

[i nasmatic i]

One of the best scorers of all time and underrated all around player.

Not sure where he is ranked all time, but if he wins another ring or two while putting up 25+ PPG probably top 10.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by mjshoefanatic

3rd best after MJ and Lebron

shaq and kobe>>>>>>>>>>>los angeles clipper organization

3rd best silly clipper fan...kobes not even in top 5...Lebron in the top 2?...not over magic/larry or kareem/wilt

top 5 no particular order but jordan/magic/kareem/larry bird/bill russell

the fact of the matter is...kobe has to win one or two without shaq or he will be known as a scottie pippen

 

[srvballer]

I think when he retires he'll be in the top 5-10 range. But if he can get another ring and maybe even 2 he will be top 5 all time.

The haters will always be there but no can deny what this guy has done on the basketball court.

 

[MVP]

I have one more question for the Laker fans that I'm sure will chime in on this at some time or another. Let's say KB does at least one more ring, doeshe become the greatest Laker ever? I'm pretty positive he's going to break all the major Laker records before his career is over, so will he "passMagic"? Also I don't see a lot of people ever hating on Magic cause he had Kareem for all his titles either, maybe that's how it will be 10 or soyears after Kobe retires.

 

[westcoastsfinest]

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP

Let's say KB does at least one more ring, does he become the greatest Laker ever?

No...unless he wins 3 more then we can talk

 

[xtapolapacetl]

So as you can see even with Shaq going ballistic in the Finals against Rik Smits, Todd McCollough, and Deke, young Kobe had comparable numbers and was doing the thing as well, Shaq deserved those MVPs but without Kobe who I doubt the Lakers would have even made it to the Finals, let alone win it all, and vice versa. You can't have one without the other. So if there's a poster with Shaq holding those 3 Finals MVP trophies, Kobe needs to be in the background as well .


Eh... If I remember correctly, Kobe averaged 15-16 points on a horrible FG% in the 2000 Finals against Indiana and the Lakers still won. If Shaq could win withKobe putting up such numbers throughout the finals, it's obvious that he could've won with another decent #2 man. Also, why don't you post theirnumbers during the 2004 finals when Kobe stunk it up and didn't give the ball to Shaq, ruining any chance the Lakers had of winning?

 

[0cks]

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

30-50 years from now...Kobe the most underrated great ever?

Rationalize with me here. Kobe in due time will be squished between MJ and then "most likely" Lebron. Don't much care for the hypotheticals, but it's interesting to think that if his career spans between these two not to mention his time on top is arguable with the dominance of Shaq then Duncan, it is very possible that Kobe can get lost in the mix.

This year and years to come obviously have a lot to do with how we look at the past in the future, but his rings were, up to this point, only with Shaq. Lebron probably gets at least 2.

Co-sign

Fact of the matter is Shaq won rings in his prime, Kobe hasn't. When you win rings not even yet in your prime, it is expected that you get more when youreach it. Caron Butler and LO isn't THAT bad of a supporting cast to not make the playoffs. I can guarantee you Shaq in his prime goes deep in the playoffswith that team EASY!

 

[23mcpizzle23]

GOAT

/Thread

 

[scotthallwithapick]

Originally Posted by Mamba MVP

I have one more question for the Laker fans that I'm sure will chime in on this at some time or another. Let's say KB does at least one more ring, does he become the greatest Laker ever? I'm pretty positive he's going to break all the major Laker records before his career is over, so will he "pass Magic"? Also I don't see a lot of people ever hating on Magic cause he had Kareem for all his titles either, maybe that's how it will be 10 or so years after Kobe retires.

I think that has to do with Finals MVP trophies

 

[i nasmatic i]

Originally Posted by 0cks

Originally Posted by 651akathePaul

30-50 years from now...Kobe the most underrated great ever?

Rationalize with me here. Kobe in due time will be squished between MJ and then "most likely" Lebron. Don't much care for the hypotheticals, but it's interesting to think that if his career spans between these two not to mention his time on top is arguable with the dominance of Shaq then Duncan, it is very possible that Kobe can get lost in the mix.

This year and years to come obviously have a lot to do with how we look at the past in the future, but his rings were, up to this point, only with Shaq. Lebron probably gets at least 2.

Co-sign

Fact of the matter is Shaq won rings in his prime, Kobe hasn't. When you win rings not even yet in your prime, it is expected that you get more when you reach it. Caron Butler and LO isn't THAT bad of a supporting cast to not make the playoffs. I can guarantee you Shaq in his prime goes deep in the playoffs with that team EASY!

Eh, that team was going to the playoffs till injuries killed them around January. Kobe went out with an ankle injury and LO had his shouldermessed up. Not to mention Vlade and Brian Grant were out practically the entire season

.

 

[xtapolapacetl]

Also I don't see a lot of people ever hating on Magic cause he had Kareem for all his titles either, maybe that's how it will be 10 or so years after Kobe retires.


Are you sure you want to go there? Are you sure you want to go to the land where the rookie Magic led the Lakers to a championship without an injured Kareem onone of the greatest performances of all time? And that's just one championship, he also had several other Finals MVPs.

 

[MVP]

Originally Posted by Xtapolapacetl

So as you can see even with Shaq going ballistic in the Finals against Rik Smits, Todd McCollough, and Deke, young Kobe had comparable numbers and was doing the thing as well, Shaq deserved those MVPs but without Kobe who I doubt the Lakers would have even made it to the Finals, let alone win it all, and vice versa. You can't have one without the other. So if there's a poster with Shaq holding those 3 Finals MVP trophies, Kobe needs to be in the background as well .

Eh... If I remember correctly, Kobe averaged 15-16 points on a horrible FG% in the 2000 Finals against Indiana and the Lakers still won. If Shaq could win with Kobe putting up such numbers throughout the finals, it's obvious that he could've won with another decent #2 man. Also, why don't you post their numbers during the 2004 finals when Kobe stunk it up and didn't give the ball to Shaq, ruining any chance the Lakers had of winning?
Ah, XtraLebron fan, a Kobe thread wouldn't be complete without you. Those numbers are accurate, but my point was that LA may have not evengotten to that point (the Finals) w/o Kobe's contributions and you especially always downplay him like he was some kind of scrub and Shaq drug him along.I'm pretty sure Kobe hurt his ankle in the 1st or 2nd game of that series, actually missed a game, and came back in Game 4 and won it for LA in OT whenShaq fouled out. And the Lakers didn't win in 2004, so why would that matter as a title year?

 

[emmanuel goldstein]

hes not top 5 all time lakers ... but hes an above average player ... in his prime he will be remembered for not being as good as jordan, and in the twilighthe was surpassed by LeGrod ... just not likable enough to be in that upper echelon of players ...