My Gay Friends: Please stop comparing your plight to civil rights.

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by Brolic Scholar

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

This my struggle is better than yours mentality a lot of minority NTers have is so self-defeating. Because your ancestors (NOT YOU) suffered to open the doors for other civil rights movements means gay people need to be hosed down and chased by dogs in 2011.


We're talking about America, no one in here wants to know what happens to gay people in third world countries.

Nah, it doesn't mean that. You're an intelligent guy so let's not play stupid and start simplifying everything to help our arguments. You know better and antics like this do nothing to help each side come closer to understanding each other's point of view which is what this discussion should be about.

My opinion is that it is offensive to African Americans to equate one struggle with the other. They are not the same. To suggest they are undermines the hard work it took to get where we are today. Obviously the GLT community has suffered, but not to the degree in this country that African Americans have. Does that make their struggle for human rights any less significant? No.

Does it mean that African Americans had it worse and are somehow superior? No.

This isn't a "my struggle is better than your struggle mentality". I, for one, am not celebrating or taking pride in the injustices faced by my people. And I don't like to say ancestors, because my grandfather didn't die that long ago and he had to put up with all of the $%!$ we're talking about. That gimmick of placing the civil rights movement of African Americans back hundereds of years ago is tired. The movement isn't even 100 years old, it's 67 years old. Hell, my father was around for it. My perspective comes from men like him and my grandfather who had to live through the struggle.

Once again, I AM ALL FOR GLTB RIGHTS. I support their fight and think that everyone should have the right to be with and marry whoever they want to.

Anton you love to point out the differences in your culture (Ibo, I think) and African American culture. How would you feel if all African Americans started saying that their problems are like those faced by your people in their home country or that we are the same or just generalizing for the sake of simplification?

You have yourself admitted that members of your family don't view themselves as black Americans and take issue with black people trying to identify with them. Do you understand why your family feels that way whether you agree or not? If so, transfer that want for distinction to the struggles of my father and grandfather and don't put me in the ignorant category because I don't want my history glossed over for the benefit of a group stuggling for equality.

I definitely understand where you're coming from.  At the end of the day, I think it's more useful for everyone (especially oppressed peoples) to have a broader understanding of the history and current oppression in this country (and in other countries as well) so that solidarity can be developed and strengthened and also so that the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's and 1960's isn't the only point of reference for people fighting oppression in this country.  If gay folks are referencing the Civil Rights Movement as a way of paying homage to the struggle for Black liberation and drawing strength from that example then that's a beautiful thing in my opinion.  Both the struggle against racism and the struggle against homophobia are ultimately fights for the recognition of human dignity and the things that should rightfully accompany such recognition.  I think if people are saying that the struggle for gay rights is "the same" as the struggle for racial equality, they are saying that they are similarly seeking recognition and acceptance of their dignity as human beings.  I don't think they use it in the sense that they endure the same type and severity of oppression that Black folks have...

 

[ballislife32688]

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

 

[-Red-]

Originally Posted by Brolic Scholar

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

This my struggle is better than yours mentality a lot of minority NTers have is so self-defeating. Because your ancestors (NOT YOU) suffered to open the doors for other civil rights movements means gay people need to be hosed down and chased by dogs in 2011.


We're talking about America, no one in here wants to know what happens to gay people in third world countries.

Nah, it doesn't mean that. You're an intelligent guy so let's not play stupid and start simplifying everything to help our arguments. You know better and antics like this do nothing to help each side come closer to understanding each other's point of view which is what this discussion should be about.

My opinion is that it is offensive to African Americans to equate one struggle with the other. They are not the same. To suggest they are undermines the hard work it took to get where we are today. Obviously the GLT community has suffered, but not to the degree in this country that African Americans have. Does that make their struggle for human rights any less significant? No.

Does it mean that African Americans had it worse and are somehow superior? No.

This isn't a "my struggle is better than your struggle mentality". I, for one, am not celebrating or taking pride in the injustices faced by my people. And I don't like to say ancestors, because my grandfather didn't die that long ago and he had to put up with all of the $%!$ we're talking about. That gimmick of placing the civil rights movement of African Americans back hundereds of years ago is tired. The movement isn't even 100 years old, it's 67 years old. Hell, my father was around for it. My perspective comes from men like him and my grandfather who had to live through the struggle.

Once again, I AM ALL FOR GLTB RIGHTS. I support their fight and think that everyone should have the right to be with and marry whoever they want to.

Anton you love to point out the differences in your culture (Ibo, I think) and African American culture. How would you feel if all African Americans started saying that their problems are like those faced by your people in their home country or that we are the same or just generalizing for the sake of simplification?

You have yourself admitted that members of your family don't view themselves as black Americans and take issue with black people trying to identify with them. Do you understand why your family feels that way whether you agree or not? If so, transfer that want for distinction to the struggles of my father and grandfather and don't put me in the ignorant category because I don't want my history glossed over for the benefit of a group stuggling for equality.

I definitely understand where you're coming from.  At the end of the day, I think it's more useful for everyone (especially oppressed peoples) to have a broader understanding of the history and current oppression in this country (and in other countries as well) so that solidarity can be developed and strengthened and also so that the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's and 1960's isn't the only point of reference for people fighting oppression in this country.  If gay folks are referencing the Civil Rights Movement as a way of paying homage to the struggle for Black liberation and drawing strength from that example then that's a beautiful thing in my opinion.  Both the struggle against racism and the struggle against homophobia are ultimately fights for the recognition of human dignity and the things that should rightfully accompany such recognition.  I think if people are saying that the struggle for gay rights is "the same" as the struggle for racial equality, they are saying that they are similarly seeking recognition and acceptance of their dignity as human beings.  I don't think they use it in the sense that they endure the same type and severity of oppression that Black folks have...

 

[ballislife32688]

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

 

[lobotomybeats]

I think if Martin Luther King had the chance to do it again, it would have been nice for him to be gay as well. If not gay, just pretend for the greater common good! In fact, he wouldn't even have to pretend; just get seen blowing a guy. Can you imagine the conflict in the African American community?

 

[lobotomybeats]

I think if Martin Luther King had the chance to do it again, it would have been nice for him to be gay as well. If not gay, just pretend for the greater common good! In fact, he wouldn't even have to pretend; just get seen blowing a guy. Can you imagine the conflict in the African American community?

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

 

[nubiandisaster]

They can't be compared. Nor should one expect two oppressed people to automatically be friends or feel connected because of their oppression.

 

[nubiandisaster]

They can't be compared. Nor should one expect two oppressed people to automatically be friends or feel connected because of their oppression.

 

[wr]

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by Wr

Originally Posted by Nako XL

just straying from the path of the discussion and following your train of thought:

you don't think you have any gay ancestors?

From my understanding of spirituality, that level of existence is beyond gender. In the flesh we are incarnated and dived into polarities of male and female.(Why adam was able to be split into his male polarity and eve a female polarity. from my perspective they were able to pull eve out of adam because adam was created as a balanced being between male and female.) I believe in people having a connection with the feeling of both sexes of their spirit, but it is wrong to translate that emotion to other people in the physical if you or them do not understand the matters of the spirit and the soul, and the journey it is on. That is why I really think it's dangerous for people to deal with homosexuality with out understanding the basis for it in them in the first place.

so you justify outlawing gay marriage because of a hypothethical philosophy you yourself believe in, that may or may not be true, and may not apply to anyone else?

way to read buddy

 

[wr]

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by Wr

Originally Posted by Nako XL

just straying from the path of the discussion and following your train of thought:

you don't think you have any gay ancestors?

From my understanding of spirituality, that level of existence is beyond gender. In the flesh we are incarnated and dived into polarities of male and female.(Why adam was able to be split into his male polarity and eve a female polarity. from my perspective they were able to pull eve out of adam because adam was created as a balanced being between male and female.) I believe in people having a connection with the feeling of both sexes of their spirit, but it is wrong to translate that emotion to other people in the physical if you or them do not understand the matters of the spirit and the soul, and the journey it is on. That is why I really think it's dangerous for people to deal with homosexuality with out understanding the basis for it in them in the first place.

so you justify outlawing gay marriage because of a hypothethical philosophy you yourself believe in, that may or may not be true, and may not apply to anyone else?

way to read buddy

 

[ballislife32688]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

and what point did you prove with that, im ignorant and ill flat out say I stick to what goes on in my own country so showing me bs that goes on in other parts of the world will not phase me in any way. Over here you got a choice to what you tell ppl espcially about your private business. Last i checked you can see im black, cant hide it

 

[ballislife32688]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

and what point did you prove with that, im ignorant and ill flat out say I stick to what goes on in my own country so showing me bs that goes on in other parts of the world will not phase me in any way. Over here you got a choice to what you tell ppl espcially about your private business. Last i checked you can see im black, cant hide it

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by Brolic Scholar

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Look the only reason many (not all) black people don't like being compared to the homosexual struggle is because a  lot of them are homophobes as well.....so right back at ya don't play stupid with me as well. Not saying ALL but many do feel this way, I've heard it expressed first hand.


Irony, didn't Martin Luther King himself use another struggle as inspiration for the civil rights movement? So its ok for him to do it, but its not ok for another group to do so with African Americans....or maybe specifically homosexuals cause that's embarrassing and it stains the movement. No one is saying the struggles are the same, they're simply saying the ignorance is exactly the same. Gays weren't slaves in this country, gays didn't go through the middle passage, gays weren't stripped from their home land and made to work like cattle....no one is going to take away that piece of history and if another group conjures up history to make sure it DOES NOT repeat itself. I am COMPLETELY FINE with it.

Furthermore, a lot of black people actively being against gay civil rights is HYPOCRISY. Whether you like to admit it or not. In fact this is the only reason why this comparison keeps being brought up.

Inspiration is one thing, equating is another.

Ok...the black civil rights movement is "inspiring" the gay civil rights movement. You happy now?

Gay people were inspired by black people overcoming similar ignorance and bigotry to achieve equality.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by Brolic Scholar

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Look the only reason many (not all) black people don't like being compared to the homosexual struggle is because a  lot of them are homophobes as well.....so right back at ya don't play stupid with me as well. Not saying ALL but many do feel this way, I've heard it expressed first hand.


Irony, didn't Martin Luther King himself use another struggle as inspiration for the civil rights movement? So its ok for him to do it, but its not ok for another group to do so with African Americans....or maybe specifically homosexuals cause that's embarrassing and it stains the movement. No one is saying the struggles are the same, they're simply saying the ignorance is exactly the same. Gays weren't slaves in this country, gays didn't go through the middle passage, gays weren't stripped from their home land and made to work like cattle....no one is going to take away that piece of history and if another group conjures up history to make sure it DOES NOT repeat itself. I am COMPLETELY FINE with it.

Furthermore, a lot of black people actively being against gay civil rights is HYPOCRISY. Whether you like to admit it or not. In fact this is the only reason why this comparison keeps being brought up.

Inspiration is one thing, equating is another.

Ok...the black civil rights movement is "inspiring" the gay civil rights movement. You happy now?

Gay people were inspired by black people overcoming similar ignorance and bigotry to achieve equality.

 

[nubiandisaster]

were gay people really inspired by blacks?
and... are some of you saying that gays should just go into DL mode?

 

[nubiandisaster]

were gay people really inspired by blacks?
and... are some of you saying that gays should just go into DL mode?

 

[wr]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

"Shouldn't have been black today"

 

"Shouldn't have looked at the white girl"

 

"Shouldn't have been a successful business community while being black"

"Shouldn't have looked like I was whistling at that white lady"

 

[wr]

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

"Shouldn't have been black today"

 

"Shouldn't have looked at the white girl"

 

"Shouldn't have been a successful business community while being black"

"Shouldn't have looked like I was whistling at that white lady"

 

[nako xl]

Originally Posted by Wr

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by Wr

From my understanding of spirituality, that level of existence is beyond gender. In the flesh we are incarnated and dived into polarities of male and female.(Why adam was able to be split into his male polarity and eve a female polarity. from my perspective they were able to pull eve out of adam because adam was created as a balanced being between male and female.) I believe in people having a connection with the feeling of both sexes of their spirit, but it is wrong to translate that emotion to other people in the physical if you or them do not understand the matters of the spirit and the soul, and the journey it is on. That is why I really think it's dangerous for people to deal with homosexuality with out understanding the basis for it in them in the first place.

so you justify outlawing gay marriage because of a hypothethical philosophy you yourself believe in, that may or may not be true, and may not apply to anyone else?

way to read buddy

i did.  enlighten me.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

and what point did you prove with that, im ignorant and ill flat out say I stick to what goes on in my own country so showing me bs that goes on in other parts of the world will not phase me in any way. Over here you got a choice to what you tell ppl espcially about your private business. Last i checked you can see im black, cant hide it

Yea this country is a little more progressive than most but gay people hardly have a "choice". Being forced to hide who you are is NOT a choice. LOL @ private business, why should gay people have to hide who they are?

Oh so you're saying if you could hide your blackness you would? People should be able to hide their race just to cater to bigots?

That's just as bad as white people saying blacks should know their place. Technically according to your thought process, black people keeping things they were in the past is a choice. They have a choice to not vote and have a choice to not be treated fairly.

 

[antonlavey]

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

and what point did you prove with that, im ignorant and ill flat out say I stick to what goes on in my own country so showing me bs that goes on in other parts of the world will not phase me in any way. Over here you got a choice to what you tell ppl espcially about your private business. Last i checked you can see im black, cant hide it

Yea this country is a little more progressive than most but gay people hardly have a "choice". Being forced to hide who you are is NOT a choice. LOL @ private business, why should gay people have to hide who they are?

Oh so you're saying if you could hide your blackness you would? People should be able to hide their race just to cater to bigots?

That's just as bad as white people saying blacks should know their place. Technically according to your thought process, black people keeping things they were in the past is a choice. They have a choice to not vote and have a choice to not be treated fairly.

 

[nako xl]

Originally Posted by Wr

Originally Posted by Nako XL

Originally Posted by Wr

From my understanding of spirituality, that level of existence is beyond gender. In the flesh we are incarnated and dived into polarities of male and female.(Why adam was able to be split into his male polarity and eve a female polarity. from my perspective they were able to pull eve out of adam because adam was created as a balanced being between male and female.) I believe in people having a connection with the feeling of both sexes of their spirit, but it is wrong to translate that emotion to other people in the physical if you or them do not understand the matters of the spirit and the soul, and the journey it is on. That is why I really think it's dangerous for people to deal with homosexuality with out understanding the basis for it in them in the first place.

so you justify outlawing gay marriage because of a hypothethical philosophy you yourself believe in, that may or may not be true, and may not apply to anyone else?

way to read buddy

i did.  enlighten me.

 

[tennhouse2]

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Originally Posted by AntonLaVey

Originally Posted by ballislife32688

Im sorry I find hilarious comparing civil rights to gay problems. I dont have to say a single word who had it worse because thats clear, but with the exception of marriage what the hell are gay ppl denied. You want to let the world know your gay that on you, you have a choice, and what your issue is you want to be recognized for a legal partnership. What you need the attention or the last name change to validate you get real. Wake up Its in no way comparable, you can be victimized in this world for plenty of things, and thats just life get over it, but to really think being gay which is a choice to let out is compared to something you cant control such as your race.

And I dont want to hear its all equal kill that crap

So much of a choice.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!!

and what point did you prove with that, im ignorant and ill flat out say I stick to what goes on in my own country so showing me bs that goes on in other parts of the world will not phase me in any way. Over here you got a choice to what you tell ppl espcially about your private business. Last i checked you can see im black, cant hide it

so a gay guy cant walk down the street holding hands with his boyfriend, just like any heterosexual couple? o wait i forgot its private business to be gay