shatterkneesinc
Banned
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i always consider duncan to be a center even tho he isnt listed as such
NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by CP1708,
- Start date
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The funny thing about Duncan is he's been playing center for the last five years yet he still wants to be listed as a power forward.
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The funny thing about Duncan is he's been playing center for the last five years yet he still wants to be listed as a power forward.
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This thread is a good read all- around.. Good job fellas.. I always thought to myself too bad I didn't get to witness the greatness of the many NBA legends from the 80s and early 90s but this thread has made me realize In the past decade and a half I have been watching some of the all-time greats in the making.
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This thread is a good read all- around.. Good job fellas.. I always thought to myself too bad I didn't get to witness the greatness of the many NBA legends from the 80s and early 90s but this thread has made me realize In the past decade and a half I have been watching some of the all-time greats in the making.
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just want to point out that MJ played shooting guard.. only young unrealistic kobe stans try to make any sort of other suggestion
MJ and duncan are the only clear cuts to me (magic and bird are pretty damn close at PG and SF.. but for both you can make arguements depending on team needs and personal perference)
- but i guess every other PF that would come up in a debate either have no rings or 1 (no one says mchale, who is the exception to this)
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just want to point out that MJ played shooting guard.. only young unrealistic kobe stans try to make any sort of other suggestion
MJ and duncan are the only clear cuts to me (magic and bird are pretty damn close at PG and SF.. but for both you can make arguements depending on team needs and personal perference)
- but i guess every other PF that would come up in a debate either have no rings or 1 (no one says mchale, who is the exception to this)
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in the 90s he was a PF.. since the rules changed and the league became less physical, he's the perfect center
that's why i probably rate hakeem first as far as centers go (should have easily been shaq's crown).. any era, i'm good at center
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in the 90s he was a PF.. since the rules changed and the league became less physical, he's the perfect center
that's why i probably rate hakeem first as far as centers go (should have easily been shaq's crown).. any era, i'm good at center
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Oh damn, my bad
Total oversight by myself right there...to me MJ is a clear cut #1 in any all-time list (regardless of position), it's just so ingrained in my thinking that I just often attribute is as a known fact
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Oh damn, my bad
Total oversight by myself right there...to me MJ is a clear cut #1 in any all-time list (regardless of position), it's just so ingrained in my thinking that I just often attribute is as a known fact
T0INE
formerly toine2983
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This thread.
Pretty good and also fair write up on LeBron CP.
Haven't read through your Nash essay yet, should be interesting.
I'll try to come up with a top 5 by position over the weekend.
Pretty good and also fair write up on LeBron CP.
Haven't read through your Nash essay yet, should be interesting.
I'll try to come up with a top 5 by position over the weekend.
T0INE
formerly toine2983
- 67,312
- 73,780
This thread.
Pretty good and also fair write up on LeBron CP.
Haven't read through your Nash essay yet, should be interesting.
I'll try to come up with a top 5 by position over the weekend.
Pretty good and also fair write up on LeBron CP.
Haven't read through your Nash essay yet, should be interesting.
I'll try to come up with a top 5 by position over the weekend.
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So this is based on players I have seen play live,or have seen 10+ classic playoff games.
PG's
Magic
Isiah
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
SG's
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler I dont know how people dont legit have him in their top 5's of the past 25 years. + im not gone sit here and act like he couldnt have averaged 28 a game in his prime, his teammates demanded shots.
If you want to debate his placement ahead of Iverson.. Fine. If you seriously mention Ray Allen and Reggie Miller I will puke. And its not to say that they arent close statisticly, its to say that they were no where near the complete packages that Drexler was.
Iverson
SF's
Bird
Pippen
Erving
Bron
Melo/ Tmac/ Dominique
PF's
Duncan
Malone cause losing to twice Mike at this point counts more than beating a soft version of Bron and Wade.
Dirk
Barkley almost want to put him ahead of Dirk, but it isnt the time.
KG is still below Barkley because he at least had a killer instinct ( if he was easier to guard than Kevin come crunch time)
C's
Kareem
Shaq
Akeem/ Hakeem
Robinson
Cant think of anyone else for the Center position who deserves mention on this particular list.
Im not touching anyone who played their last game before 1979.
CP I remember a thread that you stated you had a bunch of classic games, or at least someone said it. Let me know what I would have to do for you to help me get some of them.
If you decide you want to ignore the fact that he won his first 3 titles as a powerforward then he imo is still better than Shaq.
with Wade you can make the legitimate argument that he will level out at Clyde Drexlers level also. Now he might win a couple more titles, and be above him in that regard, but then it becomes an argument about difficulty of era, defense and skill level.
Just saying.
It also might be worthwhile to rank guys by
Guard
Forward
Center.
Just cause with Iverson there where years he played the Point, and in Denver believe it or not he played a whole lot of point as well as the first 2-3 years in Philly, the last real year in Philly, and the entire time in Denver, Detroit also.
PG's
Magic
Isiah
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
SG's
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler I dont know how people dont legit have him in their top 5's of the past 25 years. + im not gone sit here and act like he couldnt have averaged 28 a game in his prime, his teammates demanded shots.
If you want to debate his placement ahead of Iverson.. Fine. If you seriously mention Ray Allen and Reggie Miller I will puke. And its not to say that they arent close statisticly, its to say that they were no where near the complete packages that Drexler was.
Iverson
SF's
Bird
Pippen
Erving
Bron
Melo/ Tmac/ Dominique
PF's
Duncan
Malone cause losing to twice Mike at this point counts more than beating a soft version of Bron and Wade.
Dirk
Barkley almost want to put him ahead of Dirk, but it isnt the time.
KG is still below Barkley because he at least had a killer instinct ( if he was easier to guard than Kevin come crunch time)
C's
Kareem
Shaq
Akeem/ Hakeem
Robinson
Cant think of anyone else for the Center position who deserves mention on this particular list.
Im not touching anyone who played their last game before 1979.
CP I remember a thread that you stated you had a bunch of classic games, or at least someone said it. Let me know what I would have to do for you to help me get some of them.
If you decide you want to ignore the fact that he won his first 3 titles as a powerforward then he imo is still better than Shaq.
with Wade you can make the legitimate argument that he will level out at Clyde Drexlers level also. Now he might win a couple more titles, and be above him in that regard, but then it becomes an argument about difficulty of era, defense and skill level.
Just saying.
It also might be worthwhile to rank guys by
Guard
Forward
Center.
Just cause with Iverson there where years he played the Point, and in Denver believe it or not he played a whole lot of point as well as the first 2-3 years in Philly, the last real year in Philly, and the entire time in Denver, Detroit also.
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So this is based on players I have seen play live,or have seen 10+ classic playoff games.
PG's
Magic
Isiah
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
SG's
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler I dont know how people dont legit have him in their top 5's of the past 25 years. + im not gone sit here and act like he couldnt have averaged 28 a game in his prime, his teammates demanded shots.
If you want to debate his placement ahead of Iverson.. Fine. If you seriously mention Ray Allen and Reggie Miller I will puke. And its not to say that they arent close statisticly, its to say that they were no where near the complete packages that Drexler was.
Iverson
SF's
Bird
Pippen
Erving
Bron
Melo/ Tmac/ Dominique
PF's
Duncan
Malone cause losing to twice Mike at this point counts more than beating a soft version of Bron and Wade.
Dirk
Barkley almost want to put him ahead of Dirk, but it isnt the time.
KG is still below Barkley because he at least had a killer instinct ( if he was easier to guard than Kevin come crunch time)
C's
Kareem
Shaq
Akeem/ Hakeem
Robinson
Cant think of anyone else for the Center position who deserves mention on this particular list.
Im not touching anyone who played their last game before 1979.
CP I remember a thread that you stated you had a bunch of classic games, or at least someone said it. Let me know what I would have to do for you to help me get some of them.
If you decide you want to ignore the fact that he won his first 3 titles as a powerforward then he imo is still better than Shaq.
with Wade you can make the legitimate argument that he will level out at Clyde Drexlers level also. Now he might win a couple more titles, and be above him in that regard, but then it becomes an argument about difficulty of era, defense and skill level.
Just saying.
It also might be worthwhile to rank guys by
Guard
Forward
Center.
Just cause with Iverson there where years he played the Point, and in Denver believe it or not he played a whole lot of point as well as the first 2-3 years in Philly, the last real year in Philly, and the entire time in Denver, Detroit also.
PG's
Magic
Isiah
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
SG's
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
Drexler I dont know how people dont legit have him in their top 5's of the past 25 years. + im not gone sit here and act like he couldnt have averaged 28 a game in his prime, his teammates demanded shots.
If you want to debate his placement ahead of Iverson.. Fine. If you seriously mention Ray Allen and Reggie Miller I will puke. And its not to say that they arent close statisticly, its to say that they were no where near the complete packages that Drexler was.
Iverson
SF's
Bird
Pippen
Erving
Bron
Melo/ Tmac/ Dominique
PF's
Duncan
Malone cause losing to twice Mike at this point counts more than beating a soft version of Bron and Wade.
Dirk
Barkley almost want to put him ahead of Dirk, but it isnt the time.
KG is still below Barkley because he at least had a killer instinct ( if he was easier to guard than Kevin come crunch time)
C's
Kareem
Shaq
Akeem/ Hakeem
Robinson
Cant think of anyone else for the Center position who deserves mention on this particular list.
Im not touching anyone who played their last game before 1979.
CP I remember a thread that you stated you had a bunch of classic games, or at least someone said it. Let me know what I would have to do for you to help me get some of them.
If you decide you want to ignore the fact that he won his first 3 titles as a powerforward then he imo is still better than Shaq.
with Wade you can make the legitimate argument that he will level out at Clyde Drexlers level also. Now he might win a couple more titles, and be above him in that regard, but then it becomes an argument about difficulty of era, defense and skill level.
Just saying.
It also might be worthwhile to rank guys by
Guard
Forward
Center.
Just cause with Iverson there where years he played the Point, and in Denver believe it or not he played a whole lot of point as well as the first 2-3 years in Philly, the last real year in Philly, and the entire time in Denver, Detroit also.
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Top 5's All-Time IMO
PG
1. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isaih Thomas
4. Jason Kidd
5. John Stockton
SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
SF
1. Larry Bird
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Scottie Pippen
4. LeBron James
5. Julius Erving
PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Moses Malone
3. Karl Malone
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Charles Barkley
C
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Hakeem Olajuwan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
PG
1. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isaih Thomas
4. Jason Kidd
5. John Stockton
SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
SF
1. Larry Bird
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Scottie Pippen
4. LeBron James
5. Julius Erving
PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Moses Malone
3. Karl Malone
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Charles Barkley
C
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Hakeem Olajuwan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
- 1,792
- 10
Top 5's All-Time IMO
PG
1. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isaih Thomas
4. Jason Kidd
5. John Stockton
SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
SF
1. Larry Bird
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Scottie Pippen
4. LeBron James
5. Julius Erving
PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Moses Malone
3. Karl Malone
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Charles Barkley
C
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Hakeem Olajuwan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
PG
1. Earvin "Magic" Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isaih Thomas
4. Jason Kidd
5. John Stockton
SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
SF
1. Larry Bird
2. Elgin Baylor
3. Scottie Pippen
4. LeBron James
5. Julius Erving
PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Moses Malone
3. Karl Malone
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Charles Barkley
C
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Hakeem Olajuwan
5. Shaquille O'Neal
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For people putting Karl Malone ahead of Dirk, are you forgetting how Malone disappeared every time he was under pressure? For all the crap we give to Dirk for being soft and all, he came through in the clutch for a ring. Malone never did that. Hell, Utah could have even made the '96 Finals if he didn't brick two FTs at the end of Game 7 in the WCF. Dirk has a very strong case for #2 all time, especially with the ring and the way he played in the Finals. He had one bad stretch (first half of Game 6), but that was it. Malone consistently never showed up.
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For people putting Karl Malone ahead of Dirk, are you forgetting how Malone disappeared every time he was under pressure? For all the crap we give to Dirk for being soft and all, he came through in the clutch for a ring. Malone never did that. Hell, Utah could have even made the '96 Finals if he didn't brick two FTs at the end of Game 7 in the WCF. Dirk has a very strong case for #2 all time, especially with the ring and the way he played in the Finals. He had one bad stretch (first half of Game 6), but that was it. Malone consistently never showed up.
Alright, here is my Duncan angle. Again, I give the man the respect he deserves, he is my all time #1 PF, I rank him in the top 10 all time, but the point of being a good debater is seeing both sides of a subject, since no one else wants to show another view on him, I'll give it a whirl. Not sayin I'm right, or anything like that, just presenting a case.
Duncan
We'll start simple, he joins the Admiral in San An to form one of the best big man duo's of all time. Great rookie season, moves on to the next year. Lockout happens, 50 games, they win title #1. Everyone has said it for years, I'll say it the same here, while a title is a title, this one is "flawed" so to speak. Not an * type of deal, they earned it, sure, but just "flawed" They won a shortened season. Every year there is an example of what happens when you play an extra 3 months or whatever of a season, @#$% happens. If the season was over after 50 games this year, San Antonio might have won this year too.
How crazy was that year? An 8 seed made it to the finals to face the Spurs. The Spurs beat an 8 seed for the title, an 8 seed that was so undersized it was ridiculous. NY had a TON of heart that year, they gave everything they had, but this season to me was suspect so to speak. But, Duncan was solid, he played well, give him his finals MVP.
The next 3 years, we don't see much of the Spurs. Duncan injures an ankle, they go out in the first round the next year. (See what happens when you play an extra 30+ games?
)
The next year they get swept out the playoffs by LA.
The year after they lose in 5 to LA.
Now 2003. Here's where the fun begins. The Spurs get their revenge from being LA's punching bag for 2 years. Only one problem, SA won not because they were better, but because LA was flat out exhausted. 3 straight titles, they had played an extra 65+ playoff games in 3 years, now they were trying for 4, they lost Fox to injury, Horry was struggling tremendously from overuse, LA was down to Shaq and Kobe in their primes, and a bunch of role players on fumes. And yet still, game 5 in San An, Robert Horry has a WIDE open look at a 3, if it goes in, LA wins the game on the road, and would win the series potentially in LA in game 6. The ball goes in....and back out.
It was almost the exact same shot as the Kings shot, only more towards the left bend of the 3 point line. SA that year had David, Parker, Ginobili, S-Jax, Bowen, Steve Smith was on the bench by then. They had a ton of talent, and a 2 man exhausted Laker squad almost stole the series from them. LA had beat them easy 8 out of 9 games, they simply wore down during the 4th year.
Again, LA gets a little extra time off, comes back in 04, beats SA in the playoffs yet again. This time, the dagger final shot went in, Fisher's .4 That year, they had lost David to retirment, and replaced him with Horry, Ron Mercer, and Hedo, along with Bowen, Manu and Parker. Again, a deep deep squad.
05, now that LA has been broken up, the West is open for the Spurs, they get back to the finals, and face the Pistons coming off a finals run the year before, something the Duncan led Spurs have never ever done. As great as Duncan is, he struggled in this series mightily. Duncan was 10-32 in their 2 losses in Detroit. The series was tied 2-2, Detroit was attempting to sweep all 3 in Detroit to try and win a game in San An. In that game, Robert Horry went HAM in the 4th Q, getting 13 points. Duncan had a chance to win the game at the free throw line, but bricked the first, made the second to go to OT. In OT, only 7 points were scored by the Spurs, 5 of them by Horry, including the 3 with 5 seconds left to win it. Horry saved Duncan in that series, and Bill Simmons addressed it in his book.
People forget this ever happened.
In 07, they make the finals again, this time against a terrible Cavs team, and Tony Parker is the finals MVP.
Duncan hasn't really been seen since. They made the WCF in 08, but were beaten again by LA 4 outta 5.
By 2007, Duncan was pretty much done being an elite player. He averaged 20 and 10 that year. His rebounding has always remained elite, but his scoring has dropped a ton. For his career now, he's down to 20.6 a game, for his whole career. His tenure was basically from 98 to 07 as an elite player, in which case he never made it to the finals back to back years, tho he did win 4 titles, all of them I just broke down for you.
He is known as a machine come playoff time, but each of his title runs there was danger of him being knocked off. He was routinely handled by LA, and if not for their breakup, who knows how many titles Duncan would have in that instance? Bottom line, he capitalized on his career, both in timing, and in wise management. The Spurs never once rebuilt around him, they always kept the team stocked full of players. He's ALWAYS had great players around him. When people go the Duncan > Kobe route, Kobe played 3 years of his career with bums on his team, and STILL has made it to 7 finals, while Duncan gets to only 4, and never once had a year in which he didn't have solid players on the team. NEVER.
For PF's, the bottom line is simple, they are all spread out. McHale can't lay claim because of who he played with. But his game was just as great as Duncan's was. KG never had the talent around him, but I argue that he COULD have been just as dominant if he was in San An, and Duncan was in Minny. KG overall had the more talent and bigger skill set, he just didn't apply it the way Duncan did his. Hell, Rasheed Wallace should have been better than Duncan, he just had zero brain. Chris Webber also had the skills to be better, but he was seriously lacking the balls after the timeout incident. Duncan was a perfect marriage at the perfect time to the Spurs. And they got 4 titles, and that's a credit to them. But Duncan, nor the Spurs were as dominant as people love to make it seem. He didn't even reach 10 elite years, his body was already wearing down after 8. His career high in points is 25.5, in his prime, Kobe Bryant in his 15th year hit for 25 points, and people call him old and done. Duncan plays 2 feet from the hoop, Kobe plays 20 feet from the hoop, and played the fewest minutes of his career since 1998. But people want to place Duncan in the top 6-7-8 players of all time?
Duncan's mark was being consistent, being quiet, never ever causing a problem, being humble, staying out of the media's cross hairs. For this he is spoken very highly of, maybe higher than what he truly deserves. Maybe if the Celtics trade for KG 2 years sooner, this discussion would be much more open ended. The Spurs, and Duncan's legacy were lucky once again for that not to happen.
Alright, that's just an example, or just giving it the ol college try. Like I said, I respect the dude, and the team, but it's not all rainbows and butterflies like people make it out to be. Bottom line, he maximized his time in the NBA, the Spurs did a great job keeping the team stocked while he was there, none of the other elite level PF's played strong enough when it mattered to overtake him. To me, Prime KG could have worked out in San An, and possibly been even better, he could have extended that defense to lengths we've never seen, he with Bowen and David by his side.
Letting someone like Manu handle the scoring late in games, it could have been ugly. KG had the higher skill set, he just didn't have the backup to help him like Duncan did.
So you guys wanted just an argument, or an attempt, there ya go.
Duncan
We'll start simple, he joins the Admiral in San An to form one of the best big man duo's of all time. Great rookie season, moves on to the next year. Lockout happens, 50 games, they win title #1. Everyone has said it for years, I'll say it the same here, while a title is a title, this one is "flawed" so to speak. Not an * type of deal, they earned it, sure, but just "flawed" They won a shortened season. Every year there is an example of what happens when you play an extra 3 months or whatever of a season, @#$% happens. If the season was over after 50 games this year, San Antonio might have won this year too.
The next 3 years, we don't see much of the Spurs. Duncan injures an ankle, they go out in the first round the next year. (See what happens when you play an extra 30+ games?
The next year they get swept out the playoffs by LA.
The year after they lose in 5 to LA.
Now 2003. Here's where the fun begins. The Spurs get their revenge from being LA's punching bag for 2 years. Only one problem, SA won not because they were better, but because LA was flat out exhausted. 3 straight titles, they had played an extra 65+ playoff games in 3 years, now they were trying for 4, they lost Fox to injury, Horry was struggling tremendously from overuse, LA was down to Shaq and Kobe in their primes, and a bunch of role players on fumes. And yet still, game 5 in San An, Robert Horry has a WIDE open look at a 3, if it goes in, LA wins the game on the road, and would win the series potentially in LA in game 6. The ball goes in....and back out.
Again, LA gets a little extra time off, comes back in 04, beats SA in the playoffs yet again. This time, the dagger final shot went in, Fisher's .4 That year, they had lost David to retirment, and replaced him with Horry, Ron Mercer, and Hedo, along with Bowen, Manu and Parker. Again, a deep deep squad.
05, now that LA has been broken up, the West is open for the Spurs, they get back to the finals, and face the Pistons coming off a finals run the year before, something the Duncan led Spurs have never ever done. As great as Duncan is, he struggled in this series mightily. Duncan was 10-32 in their 2 losses in Detroit. The series was tied 2-2, Detroit was attempting to sweep all 3 in Detroit to try and win a game in San An. In that game, Robert Horry went HAM in the 4th Q, getting 13 points. Duncan had a chance to win the game at the free throw line, but bricked the first, made the second to go to OT. In OT, only 7 points were scored by the Spurs, 5 of them by Horry, including the 3 with 5 seconds left to win it. Horry saved Duncan in that series, and Bill Simmons addressed it in his book.
In 07, they make the finals again, this time against a terrible Cavs team, and Tony Parker is the finals MVP.
Duncan hasn't really been seen since. They made the WCF in 08, but were beaten again by LA 4 outta 5.
By 2007, Duncan was pretty much done being an elite player. He averaged 20 and 10 that year. His rebounding has always remained elite, but his scoring has dropped a ton. For his career now, he's down to 20.6 a game, for his whole career. His tenure was basically from 98 to 07 as an elite player, in which case he never made it to the finals back to back years, tho he did win 4 titles, all of them I just broke down for you.
He is known as a machine come playoff time, but each of his title runs there was danger of him being knocked off. He was routinely handled by LA, and if not for their breakup, who knows how many titles Duncan would have in that instance? Bottom line, he capitalized on his career, both in timing, and in wise management. The Spurs never once rebuilt around him, they always kept the team stocked full of players. He's ALWAYS had great players around him. When people go the Duncan > Kobe route, Kobe played 3 years of his career with bums on his team, and STILL has made it to 7 finals, while Duncan gets to only 4, and never once had a year in which he didn't have solid players on the team. NEVER.
For PF's, the bottom line is simple, they are all spread out. McHale can't lay claim because of who he played with. But his game was just as great as Duncan's was. KG never had the talent around him, but I argue that he COULD have been just as dominant if he was in San An, and Duncan was in Minny. KG overall had the more talent and bigger skill set, he just didn't apply it the way Duncan did his. Hell, Rasheed Wallace should have been better than Duncan, he just had zero brain. Chris Webber also had the skills to be better, but he was seriously lacking the balls after the timeout incident. Duncan was a perfect marriage at the perfect time to the Spurs. And they got 4 titles, and that's a credit to them. But Duncan, nor the Spurs were as dominant as people love to make it seem. He didn't even reach 10 elite years, his body was already wearing down after 8. His career high in points is 25.5, in his prime, Kobe Bryant in his 15th year hit for 25 points, and people call him old and done. Duncan plays 2 feet from the hoop, Kobe plays 20 feet from the hoop, and played the fewest minutes of his career since 1998. But people want to place Duncan in the top 6-7-8 players of all time?
Duncan's mark was being consistent, being quiet, never ever causing a problem, being humble, staying out of the media's cross hairs. For this he is spoken very highly of, maybe higher than what he truly deserves. Maybe if the Celtics trade for KG 2 years sooner, this discussion would be much more open ended. The Spurs, and Duncan's legacy were lucky once again for that not to happen.
Alright, that's just an example, or just giving it the ol college try. Like I said, I respect the dude, and the team, but it's not all rainbows and butterflies like people make it out to be. Bottom line, he maximized his time in the NBA, the Spurs did a great job keeping the team stocked while he was there, none of the other elite level PF's played strong enough when it mattered to overtake him. To me, Prime KG could have worked out in San An, and possibly been even better, he could have extended that defense to lengths we've never seen, he with Bowen and David by his side.
So you guys wanted just an argument, or an attempt, there ya go.
Alright, here is my Duncan angle. Again, I give the man the respect he deserves, he is my all time #1 PF, I rank him in the top 10 all time, but the point of being a good debater is seeing both sides of a subject, since no one else wants to show another view on him, I'll give it a whirl. Not sayin I'm right, or anything like that, just presenting a case.
Duncan
We'll start simple, he joins the Admiral in San An to form one of the best big man duo's of all time. Great rookie season, moves on to the next year. Lockout happens, 50 games, they win title #1. Everyone has said it for years, I'll say it the same here, while a title is a title, this one is "flawed" so to speak. Not an * type of deal, they earned it, sure, but just "flawed" They won a shortened season. Every year there is an example of what happens when you play an extra 3 months or whatever of a season, @#$% happens. If the season was over after 50 games this year, San Antonio might have won this year too.
How crazy was that year? An 8 seed made it to the finals to face the Spurs. The Spurs beat an 8 seed for the title, an 8 seed that was so undersized it was ridiculous. NY had a TON of heart that year, they gave everything they had, but this season to me was suspect so to speak. But, Duncan was solid, he played well, give him his finals MVP.
The next 3 years, we don't see much of the Spurs. Duncan injures an ankle, they go out in the first round the next year. (See what happens when you play an extra 30+ games?
)
The next year they get swept out the playoffs by LA.
The year after they lose in 5 to LA.
Now 2003. Here's where the fun begins. The Spurs get their revenge from being LA's punching bag for 2 years. Only one problem, SA won not because they were better, but because LA was flat out exhausted. 3 straight titles, they had played an extra 65+ playoff games in 3 years, now they were trying for 4, they lost Fox to injury, Horry was struggling tremendously from overuse, LA was down to Shaq and Kobe in their primes, and a bunch of role players on fumes. And yet still, game 5 in San An, Robert Horry has a WIDE open look at a 3, if it goes in, LA wins the game on the road, and would win the series potentially in LA in game 6. The ball goes in....and back out.
It was almost the exact same shot as the Kings shot, only more towards the left bend of the 3 point line. SA that year had David, Parker, Ginobili, S-Jax, Bowen, Steve Smith was on the bench by then. They had a ton of talent, and a 2 man exhausted Laker squad almost stole the series from them. LA had beat them easy 8 out of 9 games, they simply wore down during the 4th year.
Again, LA gets a little extra time off, comes back in 04, beats SA in the playoffs yet again. This time, the dagger final shot went in, Fisher's .4 That year, they had lost David to retirment, and replaced him with Horry, Ron Mercer, and Hedo, along with Bowen, Manu and Parker. Again, a deep deep squad.
05, now that LA has been broken up, the West is open for the Spurs, they get back to the finals, and face the Pistons coming off a finals run the year before, something the Duncan led Spurs have never ever done. As great as Duncan is, he struggled in this series mightily. Duncan was 10-32 in their 2 losses in Detroit. The series was tied 2-2, Detroit was attempting to sweep all 3 in Detroit to try and win a game in San An. In that game, Robert Horry went HAM in the 4th Q, getting 13 points. Duncan had a chance to win the game at the free throw line, but bricked the first, made the second to go to OT. In OT, only 7 points were scored by the Spurs, 5 of them by Horry, including the 3 with 5 seconds left to win it. Horry saved Duncan in that series, and Bill Simmons addressed it in his book.
People forget this ever happened.
In 07, they make the finals again, this time against a terrible Cavs team, and Tony Parker is the finals MVP.
Duncan hasn't really been seen since. They made the WCF in 08, but were beaten again by LA 4 outta 5.
By 2007, Duncan was pretty much done being an elite player. He averaged 20 and 10 that year. His rebounding has always remained elite, but his scoring has dropped a ton. For his career now, he's down to 20.6 a game, for his whole career. His tenure was basically from 98 to 07 as an elite player, in which case he never made it to the finals back to back years, tho he did win 4 titles, all of them I just broke down for you.
He is known as a machine come playoff time, but each of his title runs there was danger of him being knocked off. He was routinely handled by LA, and if not for their breakup, who knows how many titles Duncan would have in that instance? Bottom line, he capitalized on his career, both in timing, and in wise management. The Spurs never once rebuilt around him, they always kept the team stocked full of players. He's ALWAYS had great players around him. When people go the Duncan > Kobe route, Kobe played 3 years of his career with bums on his team, and STILL has made it to 7 finals, while Duncan gets to only 4, and never once had a year in which he didn't have solid players on the team. NEVER.
For PF's, the bottom line is simple, they are all spread out. McHale can't lay claim because of who he played with. But his game was just as great as Duncan's was. KG never had the talent around him, but I argue that he COULD have been just as dominant if he was in San An, and Duncan was in Minny. KG overall had the more talent and bigger skill set, he just didn't apply it the way Duncan did his. Hell, Rasheed Wallace should have been better than Duncan, he just had zero brain. Chris Webber also had the skills to be better, but he was seriously lacking the balls after the timeout incident. Duncan was a perfect marriage at the perfect time to the Spurs. And they got 4 titles, and that's a credit to them. But Duncan, nor the Spurs were as dominant as people love to make it seem. He didn't even reach 10 elite years, his body was already wearing down after 8. His career high in points is 25.5, in his prime, Kobe Bryant in his 15th year hit for 25 points, and people call him old and done. Duncan plays 2 feet from the hoop, Kobe plays 20 feet from the hoop, and played the fewest minutes of his career since 1998. But people want to place Duncan in the top 6-7-8 players of all time?
Duncan's mark was being consistent, being quiet, never ever causing a problem, being humble, staying out of the media's cross hairs. For this he is spoken very highly of, maybe higher than what he truly deserves. Maybe if the Celtics trade for KG 2 years sooner, this discussion would be much more open ended. The Spurs, and Duncan's legacy were lucky once again for that not to happen.
Alright, that's just an example, or just giving it the ol college try. Like I said, I respect the dude, and the team, but it's not all rainbows and butterflies like people make it out to be. Bottom line, he maximized his time in the NBA, the Spurs did a great job keeping the team stocked while he was there, none of the other elite level PF's played strong enough when it mattered to overtake him. To me, Prime KG could have worked out in San An, and possibly been even better, he could have extended that defense to lengths we've never seen, he with Bowen and David by his side.
Letting someone like Manu handle the scoring late in games, it could have been ugly. KG had the higher skill set, he just didn't have the backup to help him like Duncan did.
So you guys wanted just an argument, or an attempt, there ya go.
Duncan
We'll start simple, he joins the Admiral in San An to form one of the best big man duo's of all time. Great rookie season, moves on to the next year. Lockout happens, 50 games, they win title #1. Everyone has said it for years, I'll say it the same here, while a title is a title, this one is "flawed" so to speak. Not an * type of deal, they earned it, sure, but just "flawed" They won a shortened season. Every year there is an example of what happens when you play an extra 3 months or whatever of a season, @#$% happens. If the season was over after 50 games this year, San Antonio might have won this year too.
The next 3 years, we don't see much of the Spurs. Duncan injures an ankle, they go out in the first round the next year. (See what happens when you play an extra 30+ games?
The next year they get swept out the playoffs by LA.
The year after they lose in 5 to LA.
Now 2003. Here's where the fun begins. The Spurs get their revenge from being LA's punching bag for 2 years. Only one problem, SA won not because they were better, but because LA was flat out exhausted. 3 straight titles, they had played an extra 65+ playoff games in 3 years, now they were trying for 4, they lost Fox to injury, Horry was struggling tremendously from overuse, LA was down to Shaq and Kobe in their primes, and a bunch of role players on fumes. And yet still, game 5 in San An, Robert Horry has a WIDE open look at a 3, if it goes in, LA wins the game on the road, and would win the series potentially in LA in game 6. The ball goes in....and back out.
Again, LA gets a little extra time off, comes back in 04, beats SA in the playoffs yet again. This time, the dagger final shot went in, Fisher's .4 That year, they had lost David to retirment, and replaced him with Horry, Ron Mercer, and Hedo, along with Bowen, Manu and Parker. Again, a deep deep squad.
05, now that LA has been broken up, the West is open for the Spurs, they get back to the finals, and face the Pistons coming off a finals run the year before, something the Duncan led Spurs have never ever done. As great as Duncan is, he struggled in this series mightily. Duncan was 10-32 in their 2 losses in Detroit. The series was tied 2-2, Detroit was attempting to sweep all 3 in Detroit to try and win a game in San An. In that game, Robert Horry went HAM in the 4th Q, getting 13 points. Duncan had a chance to win the game at the free throw line, but bricked the first, made the second to go to OT. In OT, only 7 points were scored by the Spurs, 5 of them by Horry, including the 3 with 5 seconds left to win it. Horry saved Duncan in that series, and Bill Simmons addressed it in his book.
In 07, they make the finals again, this time against a terrible Cavs team, and Tony Parker is the finals MVP.
Duncan hasn't really been seen since. They made the WCF in 08, but were beaten again by LA 4 outta 5.
By 2007, Duncan was pretty much done being an elite player. He averaged 20 and 10 that year. His rebounding has always remained elite, but his scoring has dropped a ton. For his career now, he's down to 20.6 a game, for his whole career. His tenure was basically from 98 to 07 as an elite player, in which case he never made it to the finals back to back years, tho he did win 4 titles, all of them I just broke down for you.
He is known as a machine come playoff time, but each of his title runs there was danger of him being knocked off. He was routinely handled by LA, and if not for their breakup, who knows how many titles Duncan would have in that instance? Bottom line, he capitalized on his career, both in timing, and in wise management. The Spurs never once rebuilt around him, they always kept the team stocked full of players. He's ALWAYS had great players around him. When people go the Duncan > Kobe route, Kobe played 3 years of his career with bums on his team, and STILL has made it to 7 finals, while Duncan gets to only 4, and never once had a year in which he didn't have solid players on the team. NEVER.
For PF's, the bottom line is simple, they are all spread out. McHale can't lay claim because of who he played with. But his game was just as great as Duncan's was. KG never had the talent around him, but I argue that he COULD have been just as dominant if he was in San An, and Duncan was in Minny. KG overall had the more talent and bigger skill set, he just didn't apply it the way Duncan did his. Hell, Rasheed Wallace should have been better than Duncan, he just had zero brain. Chris Webber also had the skills to be better, but he was seriously lacking the balls after the timeout incident. Duncan was a perfect marriage at the perfect time to the Spurs. And they got 4 titles, and that's a credit to them. But Duncan, nor the Spurs were as dominant as people love to make it seem. He didn't even reach 10 elite years, his body was already wearing down after 8. His career high in points is 25.5, in his prime, Kobe Bryant in his 15th year hit for 25 points, and people call him old and done. Duncan plays 2 feet from the hoop, Kobe plays 20 feet from the hoop, and played the fewest minutes of his career since 1998. But people want to place Duncan in the top 6-7-8 players of all time?
Duncan's mark was being consistent, being quiet, never ever causing a problem, being humble, staying out of the media's cross hairs. For this he is spoken very highly of, maybe higher than what he truly deserves. Maybe if the Celtics trade for KG 2 years sooner, this discussion would be much more open ended. The Spurs, and Duncan's legacy were lucky once again for that not to happen.
Alright, that's just an example, or just giving it the ol college try. Like I said, I respect the dude, and the team, but it's not all rainbows and butterflies like people make it out to be. Bottom line, he maximized his time in the NBA, the Spurs did a great job keeping the team stocked while he was there, none of the other elite level PF's played strong enough when it mattered to overtake him. To me, Prime KG could have worked out in San An, and possibly been even better, he could have extended that defense to lengths we've never seen, he with Bowen and David by his side.
So you guys wanted just an argument, or an attempt, there ya go.
MVP
Supporter
- 83,026
- 85,609
Spot on CP.
MVP
Supporter
- 83,026
- 85,609
Spot on CP.
