Originally Posted by CP1708
Ray Allen
During the season sometime, I believe right around Ray set the all time NBA 3 point record, there were some threads opened about Ray and I was absolutely amazed at how good those threads were. They only made 3-4 pages, but the conversations were eye opening. The main one that caught my eye was the argument that Ray Allen does NOT belong in the HOF.
At first I was stunned at that absurdity. How could someone even be serious about that? Then I continued reading their point. And I'll be damned.......
Gut feeling, yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame. But when looking closer, look at this. For his career, which began in 1996 in one of the best draft classes of all time, Ray has made TWO all NBA teams, one a third team selection, one a second team selection. That second team all NBA? It's fake, so to speak.
Now, hear me out, I like Ray, I like Ray alot, but that second team all NBA is misleading. It was in 2004-05, the year after the Shaq trade and Kobe missed a good 20 something games that year. Kobe still scored 27 a game that year, but missing 20 games hurts you. Kobe, was given third team all NBA. Now my point isn't that Kobe was robbed or any of that garbage, not at all. You miss games, you don't get stuff like that, my point is, at that time, did anyone in the world think that Ray was better than Kobe? Or did Ray belong amongst the elite of the elite at guards, when not a single other season of his career did he qualify as a top 5 guard? This was the basis of that argument a few months back. For as good as Ray Allen is, for as great a shooter, he was NEVER a top flight guard in the league. He never was a legit MVP candidate ever in his career, having one single season as all NBA Third team, and then getting a second team only during the year another elite guard is hurt part of the year does not earn Ray the right to say he was one of the best guards of his era. So now, at the end of his career, he should be a hall of famer?
It was a damn great debate that went on, and as I said, I was stunned that I had never thought of it in that manner. Now, he has been to 10 all star games, so he's not a bum, but how many of those all star selections are truly justified? Alot of those could be name recognition. But over the course of this decade, I can't think of a time where his name is brought up with Shaq, Duncan, Iverson, TMac, Vince, Webber, KG, Kobe, Bron, Durant, true franchise guys that by their presense alone, made you think you had to deal with their teams at some point come playoff time. Ray never gave that vibe.
I certainly think he was underrated a little. His game was/is solid as hell offensively, and he's grown into a better defender than given credit for, but for his entire career, he averages just over 4 rebounds, and 3.5 assists a game.I was very surprised his totals were that low. He barely hit 5 rebounds a season 1 or 2 times, and he never once hit 5 assists a game, topping out at 4.8. Now you can see why he never really earned top guard honors in the NBA. One other thing you can look at, the Milwaukee Bucks traded him right at the peak of his prime. Age 27, they moved him for an older Gary Payton. I can't really imagine many other 27 year old guards getting moved like that, in a move that didn't net the Bucks anything of true value. That has to say something.
Ray certainly benefited going to Boston late in his career though. It took all of the pressure off of him as being the face of a franchise, he was able to simply blend in and play his role. If became apparent, he is the true definition of a #3 type guy. He blended in perfectly, and hell with Rondo, he might be the #4 guy.
Bottom line though, he's had a very solid career. He's gonne end up in the 24,000 point range, all time leader in 3 pointers, he has a ring, several time all star, great college player, I think he will get into the Hall of Fame. I think his overall game was a little better than Reggie's, but Reggie was a top end guard for almost a decade. Ray was not. So which is/was the better player? I think they will be forever compared and examined. Personnally, I like Ray and his game better than I did Reggie's, but as Kool said perfectly, for a season, I want Ray, but for a series or a game, I want Reggie. To me, that says alot. Off the top of my head, I would think Ray would fit in the top 50 somewhere, but when looking thru his resume, and really breaking it down, now I'm not so sure. 50-55 isn't a bad place to be, but I almost wonder if that is a stretch now. And this from a guy that liked Ray thru his whole career, but never really examined his work, until that thread a few months back, and I was shook to my core. I had no idea.
Interesting note I just remembered, I totally forgot he was drafted by Minny. It could have been KG and Ray for a decade in Minnesota instead of Marbury. It's almost like Ray was destined to play ball with KG at some point. I wish it could have happened while they were both in their prime's, we could have seen a completely different career arc for BOTH of them if that happened.
Originally Posted by CP1708
Ray Allen
During the season sometime, I believe right around Ray set the all time NBA 3 point record, there were some threads opened about Ray and I was absolutely amazed at how good those threads were. They only made 3-4 pages, but the conversations were eye opening. The main one that caught my eye was the argument that Ray Allen does NOT belong in the HOF.
At first I was stunned at that absurdity. How could someone even be serious about that? Then I continued reading their point. And I'll be damned.......
Gut feeling, yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame. But when looking closer, look at this. For his career, which began in 1996 in one of the best draft classes of all time, Ray has made TWO all NBA teams, one a third team selection, one a second team selection. That second team all NBA? It's fake, so to speak.
Now, hear me out, I like Ray, I like Ray alot, but that second team all NBA is misleading. It was in 2004-05, the year after the Shaq trade and Kobe missed a good 20 something games that year. Kobe still scored 27 a game that year, but missing 20 games hurts you. Kobe, was given third team all NBA. Now my point isn't that Kobe was robbed or any of that garbage, not at all. You miss games, you don't get stuff like that, my point is, at that time, did anyone in the world think that Ray was better than Kobe? Or did Ray belong amongst the elite of the elite at guards, when not a single other season of his career did he qualify as a top 5 guard? This was the basis of that argument a few months back. For as good as Ray Allen is, for as great a shooter, he was NEVER a top flight guard in the league. He never was a legit MVP candidate ever in his career, having one single season as all NBA Third team, and then getting a second team only during the year another elite guard is hurt part of the year does not earn Ray the right to say he was one of the best guards of his era. So now, at the end of his career, he should be a hall of famer?
It was a damn great debate that went on, and as I said, I was stunned that I had never thought of it in that manner. Now, he has been to 10 all star games, so he's not a bum, but how many of those all star selections are truly justified? Alot of those could be name recognition. But over the course of this decade, I can't think of a time where his name is brought up with Shaq, Duncan, Iverson, TMac, Vince, Webber, KG, Kobe, Bron, Durant, true franchise guys that by their presense alone, made you think you had to deal with their teams at some point come playoff time. Ray never gave that vibe.
I certainly think he was underrated a little. His game was/is solid as hell offensively, and he's grown into a better defender than given credit for, but for his entire career, he averages just over 4 rebounds, and 3.5 assists a game.I was very surprised his totals were that low. He barely hit 5 rebounds a season 1 or 2 times, and he never once hit 5 assists a game, topping out at 4.8. Now you can see why he never really earned top guard honors in the NBA. One other thing you can look at, the Milwaukee Bucks traded him right at the peak of his prime. Age 27, they moved him for an older Gary Payton. I can't really imagine many other 27 year old guards getting moved like that, in a move that didn't net the Bucks anything of true value. That has to say something.
Ray certainly benefited going to Boston late in his career though. It took all of the pressure off of him as being the face of a franchise, he was able to simply blend in and play his role. If became apparent, he is the true definition of a #3 type guy. He blended in perfectly, and hell with Rondo, he might be the #4 guy.
Bottom line though, he's had a very solid career. He's gonne end up in the 24,000 point range, all time leader in 3 pointers, he has a ring, several time all star, great college player, I think he will get into the Hall of Fame. I think his overall game was a little better than Reggie's, but Reggie was a top end guard for almost a decade. Ray was not. So which is/was the better player? I think they will be forever compared and examined. Personnally, I like Ray and his game better than I did Reggie's, but as Kool said perfectly, for a season, I want Ray, but for a series or a game, I want Reggie. To me, that says alot. Off the top of my head, I would think Ray would fit in the top 50 somewhere, but when looking thru his resume, and really breaking it down, now I'm not so sure. 50-55 isn't a bad place to be, but I almost wonder if that is a stretch now. And this from a guy that liked Ray thru his whole career, but never really examined his work, until that thread a few months back, and I was shook to my core. I had no idea.
Interesting note I just remembered, I totally forgot he was drafted by Minny. It could have been KG and Ray for a decade in Minnesota instead of Marbury. It's almost like Ray was destined to play ball with KG at some point. I wish it could have happened while they were both in their prime's, we could have seen a completely different career arc for BOTH of them if that happened.
No one checking for "losers." Yet.
No one checking for "losers." Yet.
Bums in their contract years, but still, that Sonics team had no business winning their division. Without Ray they barely make the playoffs, if at all.Originally Posted by SneakerPro
Originally Posted by CP1708
Ray Allen
During the season sometime, I believe right around Ray set the all time NBA 3 point record, there were some threads opened about Ray and I was absolutely amazed at how good those threads were. They only made 3-4 pages, but the conversations were eye opening. The main one that caught my eye was the argument that Ray Allen does NOT belong in the HOF.
At first I was stunned at that absurdity. How could someone even be serious about that? Then I continued reading their point. And I'll be damned.......
Gut feeling, yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame. But when looking closer, look at this. For his career, which began in 1996 in one of the best draft classes of all time, Ray has made TWO all NBA teams, one a third team selection, one a second team selection. That second team all NBA? It's fake, so to speak.
Now, hear me out, I like Ray, I like Ray alot, but that second team all NBA is misleading. It was in 2004-05, the year after the Shaq trade and Kobe missed a good 20 something games that year. Kobe still scored 27 a game that year, but missing 20 games hurts you. Kobe, was given third team all NBA. Now my point isn't that Kobe was robbed or any of that garbage, not at all. You miss games, you don't get stuff like that, my point is, at that time, did anyone in the world think that Ray was better than Kobe? Or did Ray belong amongst the elite of the elite at guards, when not a single other season of his career did he qualify as a top 5 guard? This was the basis of that argument a few months back. For as good as Ray Allen is, for as great a shooter, he was NEVER a top flight guard in the league. He never was a legit MVP candidate ever in his career, having one single season as all NBA Third team, and then getting a second team only during the year another elite guard is hurt part of the year does not earn Ray the right to say he was one of the best guards of his era. So now, at the end of his career, he should be a hall of famer?
It was a damn great debate that went on, and as I said, I was stunned that I had never thought of it in that manner. Now, he has been to 10 all star games, so he's not a bum, but how many of those all star selections are truly justified? Alot of those could be name recognition. But over the course of this decade, I can't think of a time where his name is brought up with Shaq, Duncan, Iverson, TMac, Vince, Webber, KG, Kobe, Bron, Durant, true franchise guys that by their presense alone, made you think you had to deal with their teams at some point come playoff time. Ray never gave that vibe.
I certainly think he was underrated a little. His game was/is solid as hell offensively, and he's grown into a better defender than given credit for, but for his entire career, he averages just over 4 rebounds, and 3.5 assists a game.I was very surprised his totals were that low. He barely hit 5 rebounds a season 1 or 2 times, and he never once hit 5 assists a game, topping out at 4.8. Now you can see why he never really earned top guard honors in the NBA. One other thing you can look at, the Milwaukee Bucks traded him right at the peak of his prime. Age 27, they moved him for an older Gary Payton. I can't really imagine many other 27 year old guards getting moved like that, in a move that didn't net the Bucks anything of true value. That has to say something.
Ray certainly benefited going to Boston late in his career though. It took all of the pressure off of him as being the face of a franchise, he was able to simply blend in and play his role. If became apparent, he is the true definition of a #3 type guy. He blended in perfectly, and hell with Rondo, he might be the #4 guy.
Bottom line though, he's had a very solid career. He's gonne end up in the 24,000 point range, all time leader in 3 pointers, he has a ring, several time all star, great college player, I think he will get into the Hall of Fame. I think his overall game was a little better than Reggie's, but Reggie was a top end guard for almost a decade. Ray was not. So which is/was the better player? I think they will be forever compared and examined. Personnally, I like Ray and his game better than I did Reggie's, but as Kool said perfectly, for a season, I want Ray, but for a series or a game, I want Reggie. To me, that says alot. Off the top of my head, I would think Ray would fit in the top 50 somewhere, but when looking thru his resume, and really breaking it down, now I'm not so sure. 50-55 isn't a bad place to be, but I almost wonder if that is a stretch now. And this from a guy that liked Ray thru his whole career, but never really examined his work, until that thread a few months back, and I was shook to my core. I had no idea.
Interesting note I just remembered, I totally forgot he was drafted by Minny. It could have been KG and Ray for a decade in Minnesota instead of Marbury. It's almost like Ray was destined to play ball with KG at some point. I wish it could have happened while they were both in their prime's, we could have seen a completely different career arc for BOTH of them if that happened.
Ehh I disagree. In 2004-05 Ray Allen led the Sonics to the division crown when it was just him Rashard Lewis and some bums.
Bums in their contract years, but still, that Sonics team had no business winning their division. Without Ray they barely make the playoffs, if at all.Originally Posted by SneakerPro
Originally Posted by CP1708
Ray Allen
During the season sometime, I believe right around Ray set the all time NBA 3 point record, there were some threads opened about Ray and I was absolutely amazed at how good those threads were. They only made 3-4 pages, but the conversations were eye opening. The main one that caught my eye was the argument that Ray Allen does NOT belong in the HOF.
At first I was stunned at that absurdity. How could someone even be serious about that? Then I continued reading their point. And I'll be damned.......
Gut feeling, yes, he should be in the Hall of Fame. But when looking closer, look at this. For his career, which began in 1996 in one of the best draft classes of all time, Ray has made TWO all NBA teams, one a third team selection, one a second team selection. That second team all NBA? It's fake, so to speak.
Now, hear me out, I like Ray, I like Ray alot, but that second team all NBA is misleading. It was in 2004-05, the year after the Shaq trade and Kobe missed a good 20 something games that year. Kobe still scored 27 a game that year, but missing 20 games hurts you. Kobe, was given third team all NBA. Now my point isn't that Kobe was robbed or any of that garbage, not at all. You miss games, you don't get stuff like that, my point is, at that time, did anyone in the world think that Ray was better than Kobe? Or did Ray belong amongst the elite of the elite at guards, when not a single other season of his career did he qualify as a top 5 guard? This was the basis of that argument a few months back. For as good as Ray Allen is, for as great a shooter, he was NEVER a top flight guard in the league. He never was a legit MVP candidate ever in his career, having one single season as all NBA Third team, and then getting a second team only during the year another elite guard is hurt part of the year does not earn Ray the right to say he was one of the best guards of his era. So now, at the end of his career, he should be a hall of famer?
It was a damn great debate that went on, and as I said, I was stunned that I had never thought of it in that manner. Now, he has been to 10 all star games, so he's not a bum, but how many of those all star selections are truly justified? Alot of those could be name recognition. But over the course of this decade, I can't think of a time where his name is brought up with Shaq, Duncan, Iverson, TMac, Vince, Webber, KG, Kobe, Bron, Durant, true franchise guys that by their presense alone, made you think you had to deal with their teams at some point come playoff time. Ray never gave that vibe.
I certainly think he was underrated a little. His game was/is solid as hell offensively, and he's grown into a better defender than given credit for, but for his entire career, he averages just over 4 rebounds, and 3.5 assists a game.I was very surprised his totals were that low. He barely hit 5 rebounds a season 1 or 2 times, and he never once hit 5 assists a game, topping out at 4.8. Now you can see why he never really earned top guard honors in the NBA. One other thing you can look at, the Milwaukee Bucks traded him right at the peak of his prime. Age 27, they moved him for an older Gary Payton. I can't really imagine many other 27 year old guards getting moved like that, in a move that didn't net the Bucks anything of true value. That has to say something.
Ray certainly benefited going to Boston late in his career though. It took all of the pressure off of him as being the face of a franchise, he was able to simply blend in and play his role. If became apparent, he is the true definition of a #3 type guy. He blended in perfectly, and hell with Rondo, he might be the #4 guy.
Bottom line though, he's had a very solid career. He's gonne end up in the 24,000 point range, all time leader in 3 pointers, he has a ring, several time all star, great college player, I think he will get into the Hall of Fame. I think his overall game was a little better than Reggie's, but Reggie was a top end guard for almost a decade. Ray was not. So which is/was the better player? I think they will be forever compared and examined. Personnally, I like Ray and his game better than I did Reggie's, but as Kool said perfectly, for a season, I want Ray, but for a series or a game, I want Reggie. To me, that says alot. Off the top of my head, I would think Ray would fit in the top 50 somewhere, but when looking thru his resume, and really breaking it down, now I'm not so sure. 50-55 isn't a bad place to be, but I almost wonder if that is a stretch now. And this from a guy that liked Ray thru his whole career, but never really examined his work, until that thread a few months back, and I was shook to my core. I had no idea.
Interesting note I just remembered, I totally forgot he was drafted by Minny. It could have been KG and Ray for a decade in Minnesota instead of Marbury. It's almost like Ray was destined to play ball with KG at some point. I wish it could have happened while they were both in their prime's, we could have seen a completely different career arc for BOTH of them if that happened.
Ehh I disagree. In 2004-05 Ray Allen led the Sonics to the division crown when it was just him Rashard Lewis and some bums.
Originally Posted by JPZx
God...
I really want to grab the mustard and ketchup in this thread... but +##! man it took me forever to get through 5 pages because everyone's going into great detail with their posts (which is fantastic). I've been taking screen caps of random posts I want to address, so I wont forget
I'll be in here at some point.
Originally Posted by JPZx
God...
I really want to grab the mustard and ketchup in this thread... but +##! man it took me forever to get through 5 pages because everyone's going into great detail with their posts (which is fantastic). I've been taking screen caps of random posts I want to address, so I wont forget
I'll be in here at some point.
