NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[osh kosh bosh]

Honestly so much of these arguments will come down to what rule set we are using.

No 3 point line?

no 3 point line + wider lane?

3 point line, + hand checking, but no zone defense?

3 point line, + zone defense.



The rules loom so large.

 

[bonafide hustla]

Dirk is also a great player, and he was a lights out offensive player in his peak. Unrivaled shooter...

but the Mavs are a very well run/built organization. Dirk's team was built around him to the tee. They also did an amazing job of hiding him on defense.


He's great, but can't get into a top X list being literal food on defense, not being a dynamic playmaker, etc. No slight, he just gets capped ultimately.

 

[bonafide hustla]

True and agree.  People look towards it though when it comes to being "the best."  It's a huge reason why people will always say MJ is the GOAT and why Lebron isn't better than Kobe or Jordan.  It's debatable.  Well, maybe not MJ being the GOAT lol.  The Dream was a center who played both sides of the court and played them well....and then you add the fact that he could put the ball on the floor, could play on the perimeter AND had GUARD moves to go along with a post game.... :x .  With the absence of true centers in todays game, could you imagine the work he could do in the league?? :x  BBQ chicken everywhere.  

no doubt.....but yea idk, Jordan (nor Kobe) get a nod over Bron for rings alone.

Rings is just a bullet point for me. I could go on and on about what I think he does better/as good, but I'd probably sound like a hater to this generation who looks to Lebron as goat.

Bron is great. top 10 in my book, but I am not a witness.

 

[JD617]

How can anyone say peak ____ >>>>> peak LeBron? That's a crazy exaggeration. Peak LeBron was as good as anyone who's ever played.

Peak LeBron has a glaring weakness that allowed the likes of Boris Diaw to back off him effectively in the finals.

 

[bonafide hustla]

^ why would i watch a youtube of highlights when I've watched every game of the series multiple times over? This isn't classic nba we're talking

 

[wavycrocket]

Honestly so much of these arguments will come down to what rule set we are using.

No 3 point line?

no 3 point line + wider lane?

3 point line, + hand checking, but no zone defense?

3 point line, + zone defense.



The rules loom so large.

No hypotheticals. It's not "whos's better than who". It's who had a batter career/dominated their eras.

Dirk is also a great player, and he was a lights out offensive player in his peak. Unrivaled shooter...

but the Mavs are a very well run/built organization. Dirk's team was built around him to the tee. They also did an amazing job of hiding him on defense.


He's great, but can't get into a top X list being literal food on defense, not being a dynamic playmaker, etc. No slight, he just gets capped ultimately.

Magic was considered "food" on defense by some. Lakers hid him. He played with two of the best defenders (Cooper, Wilt, etc).

Dirk by 07 wasn't a bad defender. He was an average one. Was never out of position. Understood his role, came up with a lot of steals for a PF.

We should not judge a 7ft scoring PF by his playmaking abilities. That was not required of Dirk. Dirk in his prime scored at an elite level, and rebounded at a good level.

 

[tvobach]

Top 10 of all time:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. Kobe
8. Wilt
9. Bron
10. Bird/Hakeem

I can understand someone having LBJ at 4, 5, or 6 (I have him at 3) ...but 9?! How...?

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again — Bill Russell was great, but he's extremely overrated.

 

[wavycrocket]

How can anyone say peak ____ >>>>> peak LeBron? That's a crazy exaggeration. Peak LeBron was as good as anyone who's ever played.

Peak Shaq was better than Bron in his prime.

Y'all really forget how literally unstoppable Shaq was in his prime? Only criticism of Shaq was he could've been a better defender...and could've been a better player if he worked harder.

If Shaq put in the work....he's a top 3 player no question. Him being "lazy" puts him in the 5-10 range.

 

[bonafide hustla]

No hypotheticals. It's not "whos's better than who". It's who had a batter career/dominated their eras.
Magic was considered "food" on defense by some. Lakers hid him. He played with two of the best defenders (Cooper, Wilt, etc).

Dirk by 07 wasn't a bad defender. He was an average one. Was never out of position. Understood his role, came up with a lot of steals for a PF.

We should not judge a 7ft scoring PF by his playmaking abilities. That was not required of Dirk. Dirk in his prime scored at an elite level, and rebounded at a good level.

Magic gets a knock for his defense. and playmaking was DEFINITELY required. They were talking about his inability to pass/make plays for others out of the attention/doubles. When you're that dangerous of an offender, you have to be able to make plays, regardless of the position. Unless teams literally play you straight up (which never happens if you're a lethal scorer)

 

[pmatic]

Quick, name me a top 10 player that never got out of his first round in his prime (25-29 years old).

 

[wavycrocket]

I can understand someone having LBJ at 4, 5, or 6 (I have him at 3) ...but 9?! How...?

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again — Bill Russell was great, but he's extremely overrated.

Because Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, Duncan, Kareem, Magic were all better and accomplished more.

Bron could very well pass those names up in the coming years. But as of right now...those guys clearly had better resumes. So at best, Bron is 7.

How is Bill Russell overrated? He dominated his era. Yes there were less teams, and his was stacked....but he absolutely killed that era which included greats like Wilt.

Imagine if blocks were tallied back then... :x

 

[KilroyIverson21]

no doubt.....but yea idk, Jordan (nor Kobe) get a nod over Bron for rings alone.

Rings is just a bullet point for me. I could go on and on about what I think he does better/as good, but I'd probably sound like a hater to this generation who looks to Lebron as goat.

Bron is great. top 10 in my book, but I am not a witness.

Yea...whenever I discuss this with people it always seems to turn to rings lol.  I'm always like ok fine the conversation is over then if you go that route.  I do understand that rings do hold weight but if you go with rings and individual play then Bill Russell should be the GOAT, but I'm not going to open up that can lol.  Lebron is a great player, I enjoy watching him play.  He's something we haven't seen before.  I used to be a really big fan but I lost some respect for him when he complained about Draymond calling him a b....  In my head I was thinking that I would have got more offended if someone actually talked down about my actual game and not calling me a name lol.  I've played in games where I heard worse.  

 

[JD617]

^ why would i watch a youtube of highlights when I've watched every game of the series multiple times over? This isn't classic nba we're talking

Because you seem to be misremembering how that strategy worked out.

 

[bonafide hustla]

Because you seem to be misremembering how that strategy worked out.

It was gold but Kwahi missed FTs and Ray saved the day

 

[tvobach]

 

I can understand someone having LBJ at 4, 5, or 6 (I have him at 3) ...but 9?! How...?

Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again — Bill Russell was great, but he's extremely overrated.

Because Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, Duncan, Kareem, Magic were all better and accomplished more.

Bron could very well pass those names up in the coming years. But as of right now...those guys clearly had better resumes. So at best, Bron is 7.

How is Bill Russell overrated? He dominated his era. Yes there were less teams, and his was stacked....but he absolutely killed that era which included greats like Wilt.

Imagine if blocks were tallied back then...

To answer your first question regarding LBJ. If your looking at resumes...I suppose you could make that argument. However, better players? LBJ is a better basketball player than all of those players other than Jordan and Magic IMO.

Regarding Russell, if you say he dominated his era...look at him and Wilt's stats next to each other. I'd say Wilt dominated that era, not Russell. 

Sure Russell won 11 rings but his entire team were dominant. (Was his entire team future HOF'ers?) And yes there were less teams.

 

[wavycrocket]

To answer your first question regarding LBJ. If your looking at resumes...I suppose you could make that argument. However, better players? LBJ is a better basketball player than all of those players other than Jordan and Magic IMO.

Regarding Russell, if you say he dominated his era...look at him and Wilt's stats next to each other. I'd say Wilt dominated that era, not Russell. 

Sure Russell won 11 rings but his entire team were dominant. (Was his entire team future HOF'ers?) And yes there were less teams.

You want an even better stat to show Russel's dominance...take a look at their finals and playoff stats.....

Wilts numbers consistently dropped pretty dramatically.


And you really think Bron is a better basketball player than Kareem, Shaq and Tim Duncan.....

Idk bout that.

 

[KilroyIverson21]

I forgot Battier made about a million 3's that game lol

 

[JD617]

How can anyone say peak ____ >>>>> peak LeBron? That's a crazy exaggeration. Peak LeBron was as good as anyone who's ever played.

Peak Shaq was better than Bron in his prime.

Y'all really forget how literally unstoppable Shaq was in his prime? Only criticism of Shaq was he could've been a better defender...and could've been a better player if he worked harder.

If Shaq put in the work....he's a top 3 player no question. Him being "lazy" puts him in the 5-10 range.

I didn't forget. Prime Shaq was a monster. But you're severely downplaying LeBron's prime if you think it wasn't right there with anyone's.

 

[tvobach]

 

 

You want an even better stat to show Russel's dominance...take a look at their finals and playoff stats.....

Wilts numbers consistently dropped pretty dramatically.


And you really think Bron is a better basketball player than Kareem, Shaq and Tim Duncan.....

Idk bout that.

Fair point, but again, keep in mind Russell's teams were always stacked. If Boston was going to focus on Wilt, LA or Philly didn't have other weapons.

And Wilt averaged 50 and 25 one season. FIFTY AND TWENTY-FIVE.

 

[pums]

Talmbout neutralizing in a basketball setting just seems like a funny word to pick

 

[pums]

I have it MJ
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Lebby

 

[wavycrocket]

Fair point, but again, keep in mind Russell's teams were always stacked. If Boston was going to focus on Wilt, LA or Philly didn't have other weapons.

And Wilt averaged 50 and 25 one season. FIFTY AND TWENTY-FIVE.

'69 Lakers had West and Baylor. Wilt also played with Hal Greer and Billy Cunningham in PHI. He wasn't alone.

I'm not saying Wilt wasn't great. Hell, I have him firmly top 10 . He was more "talented" than a Bill Russell. Bill might've been a smarter player.

I just don't think it's fair to say "Bill Russell is overrated".

 

[wavycrocket]

For you guys that have Bron already in your top 5....at this point.....id like to see you're arguments as to why you have him ranked above guys like Shaq, Kobe and Duncan.

 

[KilroyIverson21]

I think people being hesitant to put LBJ up higher on the list is an example him being probably the most scrutinized athlete in this social media era.  He's been under the microscope since he was 15,16 and was labeled the chosen one, the king and supposed to be better than Jordan, all before he graduated high school.  His first maybe 5 years he was the face/darling of the NBA.  When he left for Miami he became the villain and "choked" in the Finals.  Him leaving is a huge reason why people are hesitant to put him higher.  Him winning one in Cleveland trumps the two in Miami by far, IMO.  Another reason I feel people don't put him higher is his unwillingness, at times, to take the big shot.  Lebron was great in the Finals, the MVP no doubt, but lets not forget that Kyrie hit the game winner and even in games 5 and 6 when Lebron went off for 40+, it was Kyrie who was taking the shots when Golden State was closing the gap.  MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Bird etc...would have demanded the ball and done something with it.  It's not a knock on Lebron's game, that's who he is. I've always said he is more Magic and Pippen than Jordan.

I think another huge factor that gets overlooked is really how great/versatile Lebron is. He is that dominant and passing the ball, I feel is his best skill.  He can legit play/guard 4 or 5 positions.  There's not a lot of players on everyone's list that can do that.  MJ, Kobe, Magic you could get away with playing 1-3, maybe.  Lebron, I have seen play 4 positions.  In the 2012 Olympics he played 5.  I think this is something that doesn't get enough credit.  Sorry for the ramble, but Lebron is a tricky one lol. 

 

[osh kosh bosh]

To answer your first question regarding LBJ. If your looking at resumes...I suppose you could make that argument. However, better players? LBJ is a better basketball player than all of those players other than Jordan and Magic IMO.

Regarding Russell, if you say he dominated his era...look at him and Wilt's stats next to each other. I'd say Wilt dominated that era, not Russell. 

Sure Russell won 11 rings but his entire team were dominant. (Was his entire team future HOF'ers?) And yes there were less teams.

1. many of those hall of famers are HOFers because they were standing around Russel while he was winning rings.

Bob Cousy, Tommy Heinhnson won nothing until Russel got their and it's not like they were that good pre Russel.


2. We don't have defensive box score stats, how different would we look at russel numbers if he averaging like 8 blocks a game a like 5 steals which he probably was.



You missing the real advantage, the Celtics had;

A. they didn't have a unofficial white quota system. They just played the best guys.

B. They had two elite coaches when the rest of league had only one Head coach and no assistants.

Reading about the 50's 60's celtics It's pretty obvious that Russel was more than just a coach on the floor but likely had a better strategic mind than 90% of the coaches in the league. Dude was a player-coach and won multiple rings. Impossible now.


I'm sure if we had the footage, they were messing up basic strategy and the Celtics teams weren't .


Coaching matters on the margins, so while I think Wilt is a better player than Russel, I think Russel coaching gave him the edge in any matchup between the two.