NBA Legacy Thread, Update Resumes

[bonafide hustla]

pums i get you...your og statement makes a lot more sense in 2016, the way teams are playing....but still, there's always a need for bodies banging in the painted area and idk if Bron is about that life

 

[pums]

I respectfully disagree.

Duncan was every bit as dominant as Bron. If not more. And more consistentThese are Duncan's stats and accolades from 97-07

22ppg 12rpg 3apg 2.5bpg
4 Championships
3 Finals MVPS
2 Back to Back MVPS

The only reason Duncan wasn't the "undisputed best player in his era"...is because he played with SHAQ..... Who you are making "assumptions" on his leadership ability.

When you look at the results and impact Duncan and Shaq had....its up there.

Them being big men....and not being flashy clouds some peoples judgment.

Yea it's splitting hairs I'm not even gonna look this up cause I'm on mobile but from 2006-2016 Lebby probably averaged something like 27 / 7 /7 with a block and a steal mixed in there
He had 4 mvps
3chips
3 finals mvps
Those are on par with timmys achievements
Well I mean Phil Jackson said Shaq went to practice but naked except for some socks and sneakers so there's that and he didn't look focus for large parts of the season

 

[pums]

pums i get you...your og statement makes a lot more sense in 2016, the way teams are playing....but still, there's always a need for bodies banging in the painted area and idk if Bron is about that life

Yea it's just the way the NBA is Played now more pick and roll bigs compared to post up bigs and Lebby is still a big dude regardless

 

[CP1708]

If people are going to “make cases” for Bird, Duncan, Shaq as GOAT, along with Magic, Oscar, etc, then Kobe deserves it too. He has a Peak, and longevity claim same as any other. Duncan and Bird never won back to back. Kobe did, multiple times. With, or without Shaq. Duncan and Bird played their entire careers with other HOFers, same as Magic, so stop your next claims right there. Spare me. The middle of this stretch he was burdened with trash as Mitch rebuilt on the fly, but he was no less devastating. From age 21 to 25 he did everything you could ask for from a player, as a 1, a 1A, a 1B, whatever you want to call him, he did just as much as the other legends of the game.

Age 21-31
2000-2010

821 games
23,035 pts
4,286 asst
4,772 reb
1,359 stls

28.06
5.22
5.81
1.66

8,043-17,617 FG's 46%
1,150-3,372 3's 34%
5,799-6,893 FT's 84%

Missed 81 games. Basically an entire season.

32,311 min
39.36

Funny part, during that time frame he played in 170 playoff games, his averages?

27.8
5.2
5.5

Damn near identical across the board. 170 + 821 = 991 games. 40 minutes a night. 28/5/5 the entire time. Literally just shy of 1,000 games.


Years he DIDN’T win the MVP
2002-03 30/7/6/2 41 min a game in 82 games.
2005-06 35/5/4/2 41 min a game in 80 games.
2009-10 27/5/5/1.5 39 min a game in 73 games.

MVP year
2007-08 28/6/5/2 39 min a game in 82 games.

7 Finals, 5 Titles, 2 Finals MVP’s, 1 MVP* 2008 Olympics 7-0 in WCF’s.

25/11/7/4 blocks in game 7 2000
Game 4 of the 2000 Finals on the road

2001
48/16/3 close out of the Kings on the road
45/10/3 game 1 vs the Spurs on the road

2002
30/10/7 game 7 vs the Kings on the road

2010
33/7/8 WCF vs the Suns

All NBA First team 8 times
All NBA Defense First team 7 times

He was All NBA 2nd team and All Defense 2nd team when he was 21 and 22 and left off when he was hurt in 2005.

All Star every season, and All Star MVP 3 times. (His 4th came after this stretch) (He did sit out the 2010 All Star Game I believe)


Broken Hand, Knee surgery, shoulder injury, multiple finger/ligament tears, food poisioning,

He was their best defender, played damn near every minute, fought thru multiple injuries (unlike Shaq) and missed damn near an entire season worth of games, court trials, LA media crush, infighting, Phil leaving for a year, knee surgery, etc.

He lost one series with HC, the 04 Pistons series. That’s it. He lost the 08 Boston series with 2 starters out. Sasha Vujacic guarding Ray Allen at the close of games. His other bad beat was Phoenix when 60% of his starters were Kwame/Smush/Luke Walton. A team that had ZERO business even being in the playoffs in the Western Conference. Nobody ever did anything with some trash like that. He was one rebound away from winning that series, and dropped 50 in that game. Marion even missed the 3, they just couldn’t get one damn rebound. That board would have changed so much about his legacy.

He gets hurt with this “1 MVP” stuff, like Shaq doesn’t also only have 1. When we have voters who give out random MVP’s to storylines like Nash, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, etc. Kobe was better in 2003 than he was in 2008, but he gets the MVP in 08. Hell, he was ridiculous in 2006, outscoring teams by himself, and Nash and his 15-11 and zero defense somehow was more valuable.

Duncan, Bird, Shaq, they didn’t go to 7 Finals over a decade. Dunc and Bird didn’t win back to back, ever. So if you’re going to use those team accomplishments, then you have to do it for Kobe as well. And he surpasses all of them except MJ, Magic, Kareem, Russell over a decade span.

And to top that off, Kobe knocked Duncan out 4 out of 5 times during that time period. Went to the Finals 7 times. With Duncan/Pop in his same conference. Knocked him out in 01-02-04 and 08. Duncan won in 2003, when the Lakers were comin off 3 straight Finals runs, somethin Tim knows nothing about, ever. He didn't even reach back to back Finals until he was in his upper 30's and Kawhi/Parker/Manu/Green/Diaw carried him there.

Trying to push him out the way but include Duncan and Bird is just flat out nonsense. Shaq I wouldn’t argue too much about, I could see his claim, he certainly could make a good one. My thing with Shaq was he just left so much on the court. He COULD have done so much more. But he got swept like nothing with like 3 different franchises. And took so much time off and laughed while doin it. If he played as much as Kobe, Bron, and KG have, man…………his resume would be Top 3 with MJ and Kareem, no doubt in my mind. Magic and Bird were great, but were done so fast, it’s a shame they didn’t get to play 14-15-16 years. MJ only getting to 13 is a shame too. He easily could have had an extra 3-4 years on his resume, at which point all this discussion is probably even more irrelevant.

But in terms of just single decade stretches, Kobe matches up with anyone in history outside of 3-4 guys. MJ, Kareem, Bron, Magic are about the only guys that can match this stretch. No one else can. (I don’t know how to quantify Wilt or Russell, I suppose they match up somehow, but I’m not smart enough to know how it translates.)

 

[CP1708]

Positions overrated b

The he can't play the 1-5 he can just play


CP loves position discussions...what's your take?

I don't really care all that much about positions until you start putting labels on "greatest" and don't actually play there.

But in terms of Bron, it's vs who he guards. Like he can play Center vs Pau because he can muscle him. But he couldn't play Center vs Boogie cuz he would die. He couldn't muscle Dwight either. But he could probably matchup just fine with Draymond at Center.

He can guard Steph at PG for stretches, but he isn't tryin to run thru 200,000 screens a game, so he doesn't, he only guards Steph in short spurts.

Hell, Jason Terry survived guarding Bron for a couple possessions, but would you want to see Terry guard Bron for 7 games straight, every time up the court? Hell no.


So it becomes a match up, doses game. In a given game, he COULD play all 5 spots for a moment or two, but not entire stretches or anything. Magic played Center for a game, but he couldn't do it for a career. If that makes sense.

 

[dmxfury]

Absolute sense, those are my feelings and thus my disdain for the 1-5 comment that always gets thrown out with Lebron

 

[CP1708]

I respectfully disagree.

Duncan was every bit as dominant as Bron. If not more. And more consistentThese are Duncan's stats and accolades from 97-07

22ppg 12rpg 3apg 2.5bpg
4 Championships
3 Finals MVPS
2 Back to Back MVPS

The only reason Duncan wasn't the "undisputed best player in his era"...is because he played with SHAQ..... Who you are making "assumptions" on his leadership ability.

When you look at the results and impact Duncan and Shaq had....its up there.

Them being big men....and not being flashy clouds some peoples judgment.

Yea it's splitting hairs I'm not even gonna look this up cause I'm on mobile but from 2006-2016 Lebby probably averaged something like 27 / 7 /7 with a block and a steal mixed in there
He had 4 mvps
3chips
3 finals mvps
Those are on par with timmys achievements
Well I mean Phil Jackson said Shaq went to practice but naked except for some socks and sneakers so there's that and he didn't look focus for large parts of the season

every bit as dominant if not more.

Y'all don't see the Duncan legend growing by the second????

The "mighty" "dominant" all world, every bit as dominant as Lebron Duncan has ONE, ONE, single, season averaging 24 points for a full season. ONE. 2001-02, when he actually averaged 25 a game. That is it. As a 7 foot Center, shooting 4 feet from the rim, he had ONE "dominant" year in his career getting 24 a night.

Bron has 12 straight years.

Shaq had 10 straight years.

Kobe had 13 straight years.

Hell, Dirk even had 6 of thos years, tho not consecutive.

Larry Bird had 5 straight and 6 overall.

Kareem had 11 overall seasons.

**** even Kevin McHale averaged 26 one year.


And before I have to hear "wellllll, Duncan did so many other things too........" So did Bron, Kobe, Bird, Shaq, Kareem and Dirk. They all did. That's why they're great.

"every bit as dominant."

 

[MVP]

CP

*Rock clap gif*

They never want to put respeck on Bean's name. Dude was a beast for 14 years (2000-2013), how many others can say that? Kareem? Bron maybe in a couple years? That's it. Top 5 player if you don't want to say he was ever the best in the league (which is false) for 14 years.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

points per game.

How would we judge players without that amazing sophisticated statistic?

 

[wavycrocket]

CP

*Rock clap gif*

They never want to put respeck on Bean's name. Dude was a beast for 15 years, how many others can say that? Kareem? Bron maybe in a couple years? That's it. Top 5 player if you don't want to say he was ever the best in the league (which is false) for 15 years.

I think everybody here has Kobe as a consensus top 7 player. He's right behind Duncan and Shaq to me. It's splitting hairs. Duncan and Shaq were beast for the same time period. Let's not forget Shaq came in the league in 92....and won his last chip in 06 averaging 20 & 9. Let's not forget Duncan came in the league in 97....and was first team ALL NBA in 2013...and won his last chip in 2014 as an all star.

There a reason I group Kobe, Shaq and Duncan together. To me, they are the next 3 greatest players aver Mike, Magic, Kareem and Bill.

Personally, I don't see anybody touching Mike, Kareem, Magic and Bill.

Those guys fit all the criteria for GOAT. Consistency, longevity, rings, MVPS, stats, individual accolades etc. 5-10 is debatable.

 

[CP1708]

points per game.

How would we judge players without that amazing sophisticated statistic?

I know, it's antiquated now, I know. Still, we throwin "dominant" out for 22 and 12's, then get Zach Randolph talk started in here. Let's start including Dwight Howard and his 22 and 12's as a top 10 All Time guy.

Surely that is over the top, I know he's better than they are, but if we're going to split these hairs with the immortals, things like that will come up. No back to backs, "dominant" 22 and 12's while other guys throw 40 and 7's at you. Or 30 and 6, etc.

Shaq was dominant with 30 and 12. 22 and 12 is supposed to move me? Why? I'm honestly asking you, why am I supposed to not bring these type of things up?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Random:

I don't understand some one here...

The majority of basketball fans think Kobe is better than Duncan, just eyeballing it I would say probably 50/50 split on Lebron vs Kobe.



Kobe is not some underrated or agrived party just becuase a couple of stray NTers and a few basketball nerd think Kobe is slightly worse than you do. There is plenty of respek for Kobe.

There isn't some media conspiracy to shine up Duncan's career or anyone elses really.

 

[Peep Game]

I have Kirby at 8

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I know, it's antiquated now, I know. Still, we throwin "dominant" out for 22 and 12's, then get Zach Randolph talk started in here. Let's start including Dwight Howard and his 22 and 12's as a top 10 All Time guy.

Surely that is over the top, I know he's better than they are, but if we're going to split these hairs with the immortals, things like that will come up. No back to backs, "dominant" 22 and 12's while other guys throw 40 and 7's at you. Or 30 and 6, etc.

Shaq was dominant with 30 and 12. 22 and 12 is supposed to move me? Why? I'm honestly asking you, why am I supposed to not bring these type of things up?

people watched him play and felt that he dominated it's a qualitative / subjective term.

You are taking it way too serious.

 

[CP1708]

How you gonna throw qualitative at me and then spell respect with a K? Quit that ****.

 

[wavycrocket]

I know, it's antiquated now, I know. Still, we throwin "dominant" out for 22 and 12's, then get Zach Randolph talk started in here. Let's start including Dwight Howard and his 22 and 12's as a top 10 All Time guy.

Surely that is over the top, I know he's better than they are, but if we're going to split these hairs with the immortals, things like that will come up. No back to backs, "dominant" 22 and 12's while other guys throw 40 and 7's at you. Or 30 and 6, etc.

Shaq was dominant with 30 and 12. 22 and 12 is supposed to move me? Why? I'm honestly asking you, why am I supposed to not bring these type of things up?

See, this is why ***** can't take you seious on this topic. By your logic....2001 Jerry Stackhouse = Kobe

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Tim Duncan in his prime was probably not as good an offensive player as Kobe, or Chuck, or Dirk, or Karl Malone or **** David Robinson.



Tim Duncan's "domination" comes from being an elite two way player so that's probably why no ones looking at his no 26 ppg as some black mark. He was a top 5 defender ever maybe top 2.

 

[CP1708]

Tim Duncan in his prime was probably not as good an offensive player as Kobe, or Chuck, or Dirk, or Karl Malone or **** David Robinson.



Tim Duncan's "domination" comes from being an elite two way player so that's probably why no ones looking at his no 26 ppg as some black mark. He was a top 5 defender ever maybe top 2.

Kobe, Bron, Kareem, MJ, weren't dominant two way players?

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Kobe, Bron, Kareem, MJ, weren't dominant two way players?

Bron, Kareem, MJ sure but not as good defensively as Tim, not really close imo.



also I would just exclude non big men, unless it's some crazy situation under no circumstances would I put a perimeter player over a big defensively.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

You know when I realized I was completely insane?


I was repeating some Kobe argument for the millionth time

I was baffled that some ranked Kobe at X spot, and I was like "this is crazy, I would rank 8 spots lower"


then I realized I'm arguing about 8 spots, with tiny degree's of difference, its silly to get chraged up over tiny degrees of difference.


I then found jesus christ and eternal salvation.

 

[wavycrocket]

Tim Duncan in his prime was probably not as good an offensive player as Kobe, or Chuck, or Dirk, or Karl Malone or **** David Robinson.



Tim Duncan's "domination" comes from being an elite two way player so that's probably why no ones looking at his no 26 ppg as some black mark. He was a top 5 defender ever maybe top 2.

There it is. I mean THIS happened in a finals game. Hardly anybody remembers it b/c it was "boring"...but this is a prime example of "Dominance"

 

[MVP]

I think everybody here has Kobe as a consensus top 7 player. He's right behind Duncan and Shaq to me. It's splitting hairs. Duncan and Shaq were beast for the same time period. Let's not forget Shaq came in the league in 92....and won his last chip in 06 averaging 20 & 9. Let's not forget Duncan came in the league in 97....and was first team ALL NBA in 2013...and won his last chip in 2014 as an all star.

There a reason I group Kobe, Shaq and Duncan together. To me, they are the next 3 greatest players aver Mike, Magic, Kareem and Bill.

Personally, I don't see anybody touching Mike, Kareem, Magic and Bill.

Those guys fit all the criteria for GOAT. Consistency, longevity, rings, MVPS, stats, individual accolades etc. 5-10 is debatable.

What about 2008-2012 for Duncan? 2008-All NBA 2nd team/defensive 1st
2009-All NBA 2nd team/defensive 1st
2010-All NBA 3rd team/defensive 2nd
2011 & 2012-No ALL NBA team or All NBA defensive team

During that same period Kobe and Bron were all NBA 1st team every single year and all 1st team defense 4 outta the 5 years.

 

[CP1708]

He's talking about a 10 year window tho, and for Tim that's 97-07, for Kobe it's 2000-10, and for Bron 2006-16.

They all are diff ages/years for their peak windows.

 

[wavycrocket]

What about 2008-2012 for Duncan? 2008-All NBA 2nd team/defensive 1st
2009-All NBA 2nd team/defensive 1st
2010-All NBA 3rd team/defensive 2nd
2011 & 2012-No ALL NBA team or All NBA defensive team

During that same period Kobe and Bron were all NBA 1st team every single year and all 1st team defense 4 outta the 5 years.

That's impressive for both of them. Kobe was younger, and the better player from 08-12. Unfortunately for Kobe.... That injury really took a lot out of him. His 2012 season at 34 was remarkable individually. Duncan closed out consistently great.

Like I said...I have Timmy at 5, Shaq at 6, and Kobe at 7. Not too far apart.

 

[Maximus Meridius]

Only time Dirk has been better than Kobe is when Kobe started getting hurt the last few years. DWade was never better than Kobe. Love KG but nah. Maybe in 04. Lebron is the only one that a good argument could be made for. It was close during that time but I'll still go with Kobe.
Those are great shooting numbers. He was a great scorer but that's it. He could get 8 or 9 rebounds but he 7 feet he should.

Since when has being a great scorer, 6th all time on the scoring list, 50-40-90 club member, League MVP, Finals MVP....not been a great player. KG was a better two way player....but he wasn't an actual better player than Dirk...or had the better career.

It may just be preference with you. Seems to me like you value "all around" players more. I value players that make a huge impact, and contribute to winning consistently. They can have faults in certain areas. See magic defensively.

That's why I'm Dirk > KG. I would say '04 KG had one of the best individual seasons in recent memory though. But what Dirk did in 2011....sealed it for me. That was historical.

Being a better scorer/shooter does not make you the better player. KG was a better player than Dirk. He had a bigger impact on games. KG literally did everything on the court in Minnesota. We just got different definitions of what makes somebody a better player. Dirk got it done in 2011 not taking that away from him but for a while Dirk was coming up short with good enough teams.