NFL Discussion Thread - Hall of Fame Game: August 3rd

[jumpmanfromdabay]

Would love to see them draft a QB in the 2nd round and develop him and not rush him. We haven't developed a QB since Kenny Stabler

 

[100027]

I don't know why teams all seem to think you can just grab a franchise QB in the second round or later now. Wilson and Kaepernick are aberrations. There's a reason it rarely happens.

 

[jinkazama]

teams reach all the time.. especially for QBs..


did anyone think ej manuel was going 16th overall last year?

or tannehill at 8 and weeden at 22 the year before?

or christian ponder at 12 the year before that? (gabbert was predicted to go top 10)

I think that list is why teams won't reach this year...Tannehill, Weeden, and Ponder have proven they weren't worthy 1st round pics and the jury is still out on Manuel.

if they release him Desean is gonna think he is worth Megatron money laugh.gif

ain't that the truth...he must've done something awful though for the eagles to think about releasing him. He was a big reason the Eagles offense was what it was last year. Even when he wasn't targeted...the threat of him going deep didn't allow teams to bring down a safety to stop McCoy.

 

[Ricky D]

With the CBA the way it is nowadays I think if you have your doubts about a QB, just draft two. I know some teams can't waste draft picks but it worked out for the Skins, they got two decent QBs in Cousins and RG3.

 

[100027]

 
With the CBA the way it is nowadays I think if you have your doubts about a QB, just draft two. I know some teams can't waste draft picks but it worked out for the Skins, they got two decent QBs in Cousins and RG3.

They also have huge holes all over the roster, so it probably would have made sense to use that 2nd pick elsewhere.

 

[herbshuttles15]

With the CBA the way it is nowadays I think if you have your doubts about a QB, just draft two. I know some teams can't waste draft picks but it worked out for the Skins, they got two decent QBs in Cousins and RG3.

They Drafted a very talented QB in RG3
Cousins is just the average qb that gets drafted year and is prompt up because of his intangibles.

 

[mpire]

I don't know why teams all seem to think you can just grab a franchise QB in the second round or later now. Wilson and Kaepernick are aberrations. There's a reason it rarely happens.

Exactly.

It's hard to find a franchise QB period, whether it be in the second round or first round. They don't just grow on trees like RB's.

 

[stillin729]

With the CBA the way it is nowadays I think if you have your doubts about a QB, just draft two. I know some teams can't waste draft picks but it worked out for the Skins, they got two decent QBs in Cousins and RG3.

I don't think it's worked out at all for the Diplomats

and who knows what 2014 RG3 will be; he could be rookie year RG3 or last year could be the real NFL RG3

 

[Johnny_Cakes]

And even when you're determined to take a QB in the first round to be a franchise QB you're not likely to find a franchise QB. How many of them have been busts compared to long term answers? It all boils down to the eye for talent the organization has, obviously. How many teams passed on future HoFer Aaron Rodgers? 22?

 

[Ricky D]

 
They also have huge holes all over the roster, so it probably would have made sense to use that 2nd pick elsewhere.

True. They could've drafter a CB, OL or numerous other positions but it's not guaranteed those picks would've worked out. I'm not saying everytime you need a QB, you draft more than one but I think if that's what your main focus is than it won't hurt to try.

 

[Ricky D]

I don't think it's worked out at all for the Diplomats

and who knows what 2014 RG3 will be; he could be rookie year RG3 or last year could be the real NFL RG3

No one knows what to expect from RG3 at this point, I think he'll be above average at best, lead them to 7-9 - 9-7 range. I think they should hold an open QB competition rather than name RG3 the starter right away. Im not saying Kirk is the next big thing but why not give him a chance to compete. I think he showed potential

 

[100027]

And even when you're determined to take a QB in the first round to be a franchise QB you're not likely to find a franchise QB. How many of them have been busts compared to long term answers? It all boils down to the eye for talent the organization has, obviously. How many teams passed on future HoFer Aaron Rodgers? 22?

That's true but I'm sure the % chance of finding that QB in the first as opposed to the second is enormously higher.

It all really comes down to if you have a prospect you like.  If you do, take him—you have to take that risk at some point to try and find your franchise QB.  Very few teams will ever get as lucky as the Colts, where you can select a QB without thinking and with no risk.  Even teams with later round guys like the Seahawks, Pats, 49ers had to take huge risks in giving those guys chances to start over more established options.  Even the Panthers with the #1 pick took what was seen as a big risk by choosing Cam #1.

Basically, there is no "low-risk, high-reward" way to find your franchise quarterback.  First round might be high risk, high reward.  Second round is going to be slightly lower risk, much lower reward.  You can't be afraid to take your shot.  Unless you really don't like anyone, in which case obviously it makes sense to pass.

edit: maybe I'm in the minority now, but I still think RG3 will be a star.  That situation last year was untenable.

 

[stillin729]

RG3 has the tools but he needs to learn to avoid being hit or he'll never survive

 

[Ricky D]

These last few QBs (Russell, Luck, RG3, Kap, Cam) messed it up for everybody, teams expect you to come in right away and lead them to the playoffs

 gone are the days when you bring in a young QB to sit behind a respectable veteran QB and learn the ropes. Now you get drafted in the 1st rd with barely any money guaranteed, become the started right away or you you get to sit and learn behind Chad Henne, Josh Freeman, Rex Grossman etc.

 before you know it, you are working as an analyst

 

[ag 47]

That's true but I'm sure the % chance of finding that QB in the first as opposed to the second is enormously higher.

It all really comes down to if you have a prospect you like.  If you do, take him—you have to take that risk at some point to try and find your franchise QB.  Very few teams will ever get as lucky as the Colts, where you can select a QB without thinking and with no risk.  Even teams with later round guys like the Seahawks, Pats, 49ers had to take huge risks in giving those guys chances to start over more established options.  Even the Panthers with the #1 pick took what was seen as a big risk by choosing Cam #1.

Basically, there is no "low-risk, high-reward" way to find your franchise quarterback.  First round might be high risk, high reward.  Second round is going to be slightly lower risk, much lower reward.  You can't be afraid to take your shot.  Unless you really don't like anyone, in which case obviously it makes sense to pass.


edit: maybe I'm in the minority now, but I still think RG3 will be a star.  That situation last year was untenable.

I was actually researching this the other day...the last 30 years worth of SB winning QB's, about half were drafted in the first round. Of course you had your Tom Brady's, Joe Montana's, Brett Favre's, and Drew Brees'...but the list of 1st round SB winning QB's was undeniable. Mannings, Flacco, Elway, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Simms, Doug Williams, etc...hell, even Trent Dilfer went in the 1st

I'll refine the research at some point to analyze not only winners, but the losing QB too...just to see how many QB's outside the 1st actually made it to the SB in the last 30 years.

 

[100027]

 

Well the existence of Drew Brees & Joe Montana doesn't exactly prove it's not an aberration, either.  I was just using Wilson and Kaepernick as current-day examples.  Clearly there are other non-first round QBs to be very successful...  But far fewer.

 

[HNL HI]

I don't know why teams all seem to think you can just grab a franchise QB in the second round or later now. Wilson and Kaepernick are aberrations. There's a reason it rarely happens.

I think you're also leaving out the fact that they both were drafted to sit and learn from a vet. Which is most likely the Raiders plan also.

 

[100027]

I think you're also leaving out the fact that they both were drafted to sit and learn from a vet. Which is most likely the Raiders plan also.

Wilson wasn't.

 

[ag 47]

Well the existence of Drew Brees & Joe Montana doesn't exactly prove it's not an aberration, either.  I was just using Wilson and Kaepernick as current-day examples.  Clearly there are other non-first round QBs to be very successful...  But far fewer.

I was agreeing with you...just adding more examples of successful non-1st rounders to the numerous QB's who never amounted to anything.

As far as Russell Wilson goes, he was drafted to back-up Flynn until he completely outshined him leading up to the start of the season. But at the time he was drafted, nobody knew he would come in and earn the starting spot right away.

 

[100027]

I was agreeing with you...just adding more examples of successful non-1st rounders to the numerous QB's who never amounted to anything.

As far as Russell Wilson goes, he was drafted to back-up Flynn until he completely outshined him leading up to the start of the season. But at the time he was drafted, nobody knew he would come in and earn the starting spot right away.

Got you.  

Wilson was drafted to compete for the job.  He wasn't drafted as part of specific plan to sit behind the vet and prepare for the future, which is a distinction worth drawing.  Probably the team expected Flynn to be the long-term starter, not to keep the seat warm for Wilson (or lose the job outright)

 

[sb]

Raiders are very interested in Derek Carr

Because he's not a top 5 pick and nobody is going to reach for him.

Who says he isn't a top 5 pick? All that matters is the Raiders are in love with him after his pro day

Common sense says he's not a top 5 pick, they can draft him in the second rd or trade up at the end the first for him.

lulz at carr in the 2nd round. he will go 1st round.

 

[ag 47]

Got you.  

Wilson was drafted to compete for the job.  He wasn't drafted as part of specific plan to sit behind the vet and prepare for the future, which is a distinction worth drawing.  Probably the team expected Flynn to be the long-term starter, not to keep the seat warm for Wilson (or lose the job outright)

But can't you argue any QB selected in first of second round will be competing for the starting position? 1st or 2nd round pick is obviously still a big investment in a player. It seems to be a little backwards to pidgeon hole your player into a backup role with no chance at the starting job. Compete and if you're not ready to start yet, sit and learn.

Wilson was drafted in the 4th...I can't imagine (especially after signing Flynn to that healthy contract) that Wilson was intended to start Game 1.

 

[HNL HI]

You don't sign a guy for 20 million not expecting him to be the starter.

 

[100027]

But can't you argue any QB selected in first of second round will be competing for the starting position? 1st or 2nd round pick is obviously still a big investment in a player. It seems to be a little backwards to pidgeon hole your player into a backup role with no chance at the starting job. Compete and if you're not ready to start yet, sit and learn.

Wilson was drafted in the 4th...I can't imagine (especially after signing Flynn to that healthy contract) that Wilson was intended to start Game 1.

In the third.  And yes, I agree.  I'm just arguing that the Wilson case shouldn't be something GMs are looking to copy, because it was an anomaly.  

 

[str8drop]

These are all the 2nd round QBs since Brett Favre

Geno Smith (Jets) 2013
Brock Osweiler (Broncos) 2012
Andy Dalton (Bengals) 2011
Colin Kaepernick (49ers) 2011
Jimmy Clausen (Panthers) 2010
Pat White (Dolphins) 2009
Brian Brohm (Packers) 2008
Chad Henne (Dolphins) 2008
Kevin Kolb (Eagles) 2007
John Beck (Dolphins) 2007
Drew Stanton (Lions) 2007
Kellen Clemens (Jets) 2006
Tarvaris Jackson (Vikings) 2006
Drew Brees (Saints) 2001
Quincy Carter (Cowboys) 2001
Marques Tuiasosopo (Raiders) 2001
Shaun King (Bucs) 1999
Charlie Batch (Lions) 1998
Jake Plummer (Cardinals) 1997
Tony Banks (Rams) 1996
Todd Collins (Bills) 1995
Kordell Stewart (Steelers) 1995
Matt Blundin (Chiefs) 1992
Tony Sacca (Cardinals) 1992