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AI was "6 foot" and carried a bunch of randoms to the finals. Kyrie can't even get his team out of the damn lottery and they continue to suck. Idc about the hype or "potential" if I was a gm I wouldn't give Kyrie the max.
NYK '14 offseason thread
- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by pr0phecy718,
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Your point completely contradicts itself. So the East sucked and Toronto was able to take advantage of it but Cleveland couldnt win more than 30 games again?
Cleveland has tried to build around Kyrie. Why else do you think they signed Andrew Bynum and traded for Luol Deng? They werent tanking. They werent expecting to get the #1 pick again. The Cavs made Kyrie the #1 overall pick, they just signed him to a max contract extension, I dont understand how you are trying to say that Cleveland hasnt tried to build around him. Kyrie simply just hasnt been good enough.
Im not saying AI could have taken these Cavs to the finals but young Iverson 100% would have been able to at least lead these Cavs into the playoffs in the weak *** Eastern Conference. AI never missed the playoffs during his prime and his teams werent all that good either.
It is not that Cleveland hasnt tried to build around Kyrie, it is that Kyrie simply isnt talented enough to build around and he certainly isnt a good enough PG to win around.
Kyrie barely averaged more than 20 ppg this season and 6 apg. He plays no defense and his team hasnt done anything. What other NBA player receives the same kind of hype that Kyrie does having achieved so little? ******* Isaiah Thomas had a better statistical season than Kyrie did. And im well aware that stats often do not tell the whole story, but if you want to look beyond individual stats to back up Kyrie's play than he better at least be achieving team success and winning games out there.
You say its irrelevant to compare Kyrie to Marbury, when in reality they have a lot in common. Definitely alot more than with Iverson. Kyrie and Steph were/are both talented scoring PGs and both have achieved minimal team success. The biggest difference was that Marbury was a consistent 20 and 8 guy who was capable of leading his teams to at least a playoff birth like he showed when he came to the Knicks in 2004. Kyrie has never been a 20 and 8 guy.
You want to compare him to AI now? I am amazed that anyone could seriously put somebody in the same conversation as Allen Iverson, who was becoming the best 2 guard in the NBA when he was Kyrie's age, having achieved as little as Kyrie has. Please look beyond all of the media hype around Kyrie for 2 seconds.
You want to compare Kyrie's 3rd season to Iverson's? In the 1999 lockout season AI averaged 26.8 points per game and led the 76ers to the second round of the playoffs. The following season he averaged 28.4 ppg and the 76ers won 49 games and made it to the second round again. The season after that AI averaged 31.1 ppg, won MVP, and led the Sixers to the NBA Finals.
Kyrie barely averaged 20 a game this season and he has never even sniffed the playoffs. What in the world besides the absurd amount of hype around his game makes you think he could be an Allen Iverson type player? And you say that alot of dudes on my list are "questionable PGs," when you are comparing Kyrie to AI (who wasnt a PG), and every player on my list has proven to be better at making his teammates better than Kyrie does which is THE primary responsibility of any PG.
I mean you could bring up team stats/winning and you could bring up individual stats alone, they both back it up. Kyrie isnt a top 10 PG right now and he is certainly not Allen ******* Iverson.
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@ the notion that the team surrounding Kyrie is better than the one surrounding A.I. even if we agree both surrounding players sucked.Yes cuz the Cavs really suck and Toronto as a collective is better (not just cuz of Lowry).
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I thought someone was making a joke when I first heard this. One of the most pointless and dumbest trades ever if that happened.
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Bynum? Son do I have to pull up all the links surrounding the debacle that signing Bynum was. Again you making my point for me. We started this off with me saying Kyrie can become like AI if Cle built around him now you're trying to tell me they have built around him and it's Kyrie's fault Andrew Bynum is a bum.It was a good start but a bit late. I didn't say they were tanking. I'm saying the team around Kyrie wasn't being built around him so that he could lead the team. I'm saying they sucked. More so than any group of players around A.I.
I'd also say they gave up right around Christmas if you look at their record. So you can say they weren't tanking I say they stopped caring.
A 22 yr old A.I. wouldn't have done **** with this team. Now I think you just propelling A.I.'s greatness way more than it ever was.
You say Kyrie aint won **** as if A.I. did.
You confusing my points or talking about somebody else's argument. I will continue to not give Lowry the sole credit for Toronto taking advantage of the weak East. I never said Kyle Lowry overachieved anything. I said the Raptors took advantage of a weak East. If you think the Raps begin and end with Lowry we might as well stop talking about them now.
So ******* what?
The **** this got to do with anything?
Sheeeeeet I guess Zeke bout to get a max contract too if one statistical year means one player is better than the next.
I don't understand this talk. I mean we really gonna pretend like A.I. took every team he was on to the playoffs while he was in his prime? DId it not take a Mutumbo and Mckey, Coleman, and Eric Snow coming in to their own for that 01 run? One player aint gonna win the game by himself if he literally has no support around him. That's what I'm saying Kyrie lacked. So to say Kyrie isn't winning and not seeing success like this is some one on one sport is ridiculous.
It's totally fine you think he's over hyped and only popular cuz he's well liked and he isn't a top 10 pg that don't mean it's true though.
You can compare Kyrie to Starbury all day but it really don't got much to do with me comparing Kyrie to A.I. I can think you're wrong and you can think I'm wrong.
Not now, that's what I started off doing. I aint changed on it either.
Seems you the only one concerned about media hype. I aint even sure what you're talking about when you say that. I mean what some Uncle Drew commercials?
Can't even recall that many commercials he was in this past season. What? You mad he got voted on the all star team again?I think you need need to put this media stuff aside and look at this with a clear head cuz it's been your assumption from the start and you can't get off of it.
I'd tell you to watch him play on Cle but maybe you still wouldn't see it and then start telling me about Eric Bledsoe or something.
Again I'll be clear about the whole questionable pgs and Kyrie thing. I compared Kyrie to A.I. A.I. isn't a pg. I know that, you know. It's one of the reasons I compared Kyrie to A.I. You reply with Kyrie isn't even a top 10 pg as if A.I. was or something. I mean I'm not talking about point guards when I'm comparing the two so I'm not sure why you even brought that up but to at least address that I told you even if we were talking pgs I'm not aware of 10 flat out better ones. you then list some. A few who are "score first' pgs anyway (Curry, Westbrook) which is why I said questionable. I wouldn't even get in to the ones who aint leaders or that good of passers. I means besides you go on to mention dudes like Thomas.
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Kyrie's alright, but he's not real... (yet)
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Damn I wanted to read that wall of text but I didn't feel like it, I know there was some good points in there though
I remember when I thought Bynum would heal and it would be him and kyrie...
I remember when I thought Bynum would heal and it would be him and kyrie...
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Bottom line. Kyrie won't ever be AI and damn sure ain't worth the max. How are you gonna devote the majority of your cap to a player that can't even make the playoffs in the east. Take any other max player and trade them for kyrie, guarantee they make the playoffs.
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If only the NBA actually worked like that.
**** according to some of you dudes with some of this reasoning I guess Lowry deserves the max, John Wall, Paul George, some dude on the Bobcats, that other bum on the Pacers, Every ****** team that made it in the playoffs this past season's best player should have the majority of the cap space too.
Melo shouldn't get it either.
Thing is that's not how it works, teams give their best players the max knowing full well how foolish it would be to let them walk when they already suck so much. They know they're better off trying to build around their best players than losing them. They know it's much better to sign them to the max or a huge contract and then trade them down the line if it don't work out or they get a great offer than to let them walk.That's why the best players on the team get the max and that's why these other good key players get crazy huge contracts.
I don't even give a **** if Kyrie gets the max. That really didn't have to do with what I was talking about. I wasn't saying he's gonna be A.I. so he should get maxed out. I don't give a **** about the Cavs.
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I only bring up the media hype around Kyrie because it is the only logical reason I can think of as to why a player who doesnt put up ridiculous scoring numbers, doesnt get alot of assists for a PG, plays no defense, and has never even came close to making the playoffs can be compared to a player like Allen Iverson. **** just doesnt make sense to me.
You keep blaming the Cavs supporting cast, but by doing so you are giving Kyrie a major pass. Its a complete cop out. Irving was an absolute disappointment this season. I will admit that his supporting cast wasnt great, but many people (including myself) predicted that Kyrie would be able to take the next step this season and lead the Cavs to the playoffs. Meanwhile teams like Toronto and Phoenix were predicted to finish near the bottom of the standings, and both were expected to tank. The Cavs expected to make the playoffs this season. I only bring up Deng/Bynum because it shows that the Cavs were trying to win right now because they believed Kyrie would be able to lead them to a playoff birth. If they were rebuilding or some **** I would get what you are saying, but they have built their roster trying to win around Kyrie. Kyrie has been the one who has under achieved.
Before the season most people predicted that the Cavs would finish better than Toronto or Phoenix because it was widely believed that Kyrie would be able to take the next step. He didnt. Phoenix and Toronto were able to overachieve because their point guards overachieved. It is easy to say that they have better rosters than Cleveland looking back, but a team's supporting cast always looks better than they actually are when they play with a great point guard.
Im over this argument considering it is not Knicks related, but its become annoying how overrated Kyrie has become IMO. Im not saying Kyrie cant ever become a top point guard, he is still young. But to say that Kyrie is on the verge of becoming a young Iverson? Doing what? What can possibly lead you to compare Kyrie to Iverson? Makes 0 sense to me.
EDIT: and its not just about losing and not making the playoffs with Kyrie. I get it hes young and the Cavs arent great. If the Cavs were losing like they are and Kyrie was putting up Iverson-esque scoring numbers or averaging around 10 assists per game or some ****, I would believe all the hype a little bit more.
But this dude hasnt even come close to the playoffs, plays terrible D, and hes giving you 20 and 6? FOH with that. Signing him to the max is a great example to why the Cavs are a terrible organization and will be going nowhere.
I mean seriously? Youre gonna talk up AI's supporting cast and say that I am "propelling" AI's greatness. The 2001 76ers along with the 2007 Cavs are widely considered to be the worst supporting casts to reach the NBA Finals in recent memory. Iverson averaged 31 ppg that season en route to being named League MVP. He also almost single handedly gave the 2001 Lakers their only loss of the entire playoffs with a 48 point performance in Game 1. You think that is Kyrie? You think young Iverson, who never missed the playoffs during his prime, couldnt at least take these Cavs to the playoffs in this Eastern Conference? You act like Deng, Waiters, Thompson, Varaejo are alot worse than they are.
You keep blaming the Cavs supporting cast, but by doing so you are giving Kyrie a major pass. Its a complete cop out. Irving was an absolute disappointment this season. I will admit that his supporting cast wasnt great, but many people (including myself) predicted that Kyrie would be able to take the next step this season and lead the Cavs to the playoffs. Meanwhile teams like Toronto and Phoenix were predicted to finish near the bottom of the standings, and both were expected to tank. The Cavs expected to make the playoffs this season. I only bring up Deng/Bynum because it shows that the Cavs were trying to win right now because they believed Kyrie would be able to lead them to a playoff birth. If they were rebuilding or some **** I would get what you are saying, but they have built their roster trying to win around Kyrie. Kyrie has been the one who has under achieved.
Before the season most people predicted that the Cavs would finish better than Toronto or Phoenix because it was widely believed that Kyrie would be able to take the next step. He didnt. Phoenix and Toronto were able to overachieve because their point guards overachieved. It is easy to say that they have better rosters than Cleveland looking back, but a team's supporting cast always looks better than they actually are when they play with a great point guard.
Im over this argument considering it is not Knicks related, but its become annoying how overrated Kyrie has become IMO. Im not saying Kyrie cant ever become a top point guard, he is still young. But to say that Kyrie is on the verge of becoming a young Iverson? Doing what? What can possibly lead you to compare Kyrie to Iverson? Makes 0 sense to me.
EDIT: and its not just about losing and not making the playoffs with Kyrie. I get it hes young and the Cavs arent great. If the Cavs were losing like they are and Kyrie was putting up Iverson-esque scoring numbers or averaging around 10 assists per game or some ****, I would believe all the hype a little bit more.
But this dude hasnt even come close to the playoffs, plays terrible D, and hes giving you 20 and 6? FOH with that. Signing him to the max is a great example to why the Cavs are a terrible organization and will be going nowhere.
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I'm not giving Kyrie a pass at all. We're not discussing Kryie's pros and cons. I could bring up his faults and injury woes but that's not what's being done here. You've spent paragraphs talking about his media hype in between all of your other points bringing up top 10 pgs, Marbury, Bynum being evidence of a team being built around Kyrie and a few other points I consider weak arguments. I said he's on his way to becoming a young A.I. you took a hard stance against that.
If we can't agree on something like the Cav team around Kyrie being trash then we can't go much farther from there. I mean you might rather want to phrase your arguments to put it all on Kyrie as if this is a one on one game as I've previously mentioned but it aint really swaying my outlook on this seeing as you keep falling back on this media hype nonsense.
As far as predictions go by "most ppl". I don't have a high opinion of them.
As for getting the comparison watch Kyrie play with the Cavs. Don't worry yourself with media hype.
If we can't agree on something like the Cav team around Kyrie being trash then we can't go much farther from there. I mean you might rather want to phrase your arguments to put it all on Kyrie as if this is a one on one game as I've previously mentioned but it aint really swaying my outlook on this seeing as you keep falling back on this media hype nonsense.
As far as predictions go by "most ppl". I don't have a high opinion of them.
As for getting the comparison watch Kyrie play with the Cavs. Don't worry yourself with media hype.
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Totally agree with THE GR8's stance on Mr. Irving
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Lol. I watch Kyrie play plenty. I watch all of the NBA teams and watching Kyrie play is precisely the reason why I cannot understand the hype. Instead of telling me that you consider my arguments to be "weak," please tell me why it is exactly that you think Kyrie is a young AI? Because I have watched him play and I do not get it, and his stats dont back it up either. He doesnt score like AI, he doesnt distribute like other top PGs, he is a terrible defender, and his team sucks.
I mean whatever. Im over this argument. I just do not buy the hype around Kyrie and comparing him to AI is honestly an insult to AI's legacy. Youre telling me to watch the Cavs but comparing Kyrie to a young AI makes me think you never watched Iverson play in his prime. Kyrie has really done nothing to warrant anything thus far in his career.
You consider it a "weak" argument for me to compare him to Marbury (who he has alot of similarities to in terms of them both being scoring PGs that dont make their teammates better), yet you feel entitled to compare him to Iverson without backing up your point whatsoever? You can call my arguments "weak" but its not like Im saying that Bynum was a good player for the Cavs, just trying to rebuff your point that the Cavs havent tried to win around Kyrie. They have, but he has underachieved.
Instead of calling my arguments "weak," why dont you actually back up your argument of why you think Kyrie is comparable to Allen Iverson? Because as ive said, it just doesnt make the slightest bit of sense to me.
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His ability to take over the game, finishing at the rim, shot selection, tenacity, handle, speed, style, etc.
But if you want to tell me again how Kyrie doesn't play defense like A.I. was defensive player of the year 5 seasons straight go ahead - and again comparing stats isn't gonna tell you why one player is a comparable younger version of another. If I show you Shaq stats and then some identical ones but they happen to be Julius Irving does that make an argument of Shaq being a young Dr. J make sense? You leaning on stats a bit too hard like A.I. was ever about that. Son had no problem jacking up 40 shots a game with a fg% below 40.
As for your comparison to Marbury again please stop putting words in to my mouth. I'll tell you now I don't give a **** about your comparison to Marbury. I dismissed it. I didn't discredit it. That **** is irrelevant to what I'm talking about. If you want to say he's comparable to him and bring up stats and w/e else do that with somebody who is actually disputing that or who even called it in to question.
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I'm at work 
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I'm at work
We're having a barbecue summit tomorrow
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View media item 1061724
made Melo an offer he can't refuse
http://nypost.com/2014/07/04/source-melo-may-take-less-money-and-re-sign-with-knicks/
made Melo an offer he can't refuse
http://nypost.com/2014/07/04/source-melo-may-take-less-money-and-re-sign-with-knicks/
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"In Phil we trust"
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I agree that comparing stats isnt gonna tell you the whole story. But if one player's stats dont resemble how good that player really is, then often times his team's record usually does. Kind of like Tony Parker. But when Kyrie looks much worse than AI on the stat sheet, and his team's record is consistently much worse than AI's were, not to mention that no player in NBA history passed the eye test quite like prime AI did, it probably is a sign that Kyrie shouldnt be compared to the Answer.
But hey, youre entitled to your opinion... Go Knicks
EDIT:
I really ******* hope Melo signs with a pay cut. I have said all along that is what I wanted the most and I didnt want to resign him for the max.
But I also said that I didnt think it was the smart move for Phil to publicly push Melo to take a pay cut.
Melo is a bonafide superstar and we need to play into his ego. Phil needed to publicly claim that the Knicks needed to resign Melo at all cost and say that he is a max player. This way if Melo was true to his word and took a pay cut, he looks like a selfless hero in the public eye who is determined to take sacrifices in order for the Knicks to win a ring.
This is why, although I agreed with Phil, I wasnt thrilled that he publicly campaigned for Melo to be a "man of his word" and take the max. It diminished the selflessness that Melo was trying to put on display when he first said he would take a pay cut if it helped the team win.
But now that Phil has reportedly offered Melo the max, Melo can still play the hero and take a pay cut to stay. This would be unbelievable for his "selfish" reputation and will benefit him immensely in the long run with the help of the Zen Master... Forget about the love Paul Pierce got in Boston for sticking through the bad times before winning, if Melo willingly takes a pay cut and with the help of Phil, delivers us a ring. He will become basketball God in the Mecca of basketball. IMO, THAT more than anything is what Melo wants. It is why he came to New York, and why I think he stays a Knick...
But then again I dont trust **** from Berman and the NY Post
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I knew Phil could somehow convince Melo to take a slight cut. Was debating this issue with my friend. If this is true, can no longer underestimate the power of the Zen.
@ Pablo in the back.
@ Pablo in the back.
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Take that Kyrie talk to the Cavs thread. >>>>>>>
Dude is no AI
Dude is no AI
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Melo taking a pay cut would be amazing all around.
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View media item 1061724
made Melo an offer he can't refuse
http://nypost.com/2014/07/04/source-melo-may-take-less-money-and-re-sign-with-knicks/
This is exactly what I was hoping for.
Some type of contract maneuvering that would free up more cap room over the years.
The future is looking bright fellas.
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Yep, Melo's staying.
