OfficiaL '16 NYK offseason thread, Melo goes to bodega in bathrobe and Olympic hat

[illoquent aka dsk]

Excerpt from a Chris Herring article on what Hornacek to the Knicks could mean for the team. He posted it before Beck broke the news, didn't know it was gonna happen at the time...

In a single season, from 2012 under coaches Alvin Gentry and Lindsey Hunter to 2013 with Hornacek, the Suns went from No. 25 to No. 5 in 3-point attempt rate. They went from a league-average 13.5 points a game in fastbreak scenarios to a league-best 18.7. And they jumped from 29th in offensive efficiency to eighth.

Things obviously went awry over time, as the roster likely waded too far in the small-ball direction by bringing in guard Isaiah Thomas, now a star with the Boston Celtics. None of the three guards seemed happy with their playing time, let alone their diminished opportunities to run the offense.

The defense took a step back. Eventually, as the roster saw more turnover and lost its identity, Bledsoe suffered a season-ending injury and the players’ effort began to wane, spelling the end for Hornacek in Phoenix.

But he could be a good fit in New York. It’s clear that the Knicks, who have ranked dead-last in fast-break scoring each of the past four seasons, could use someone who is able to get them easier baskets. The Knicks got few early-clock looks last season, with just 14.6% of their shots coming within the first six seconds of the shot clock, according to NBA.com. By contrast, the Suns took about 24% of their shots within the first six seconds in their two full seasons under Hornacek.

Hornecek’s system could be a boon, but there are areas where his style would seem to clash with Jackson’s. Clearing out the elbow, for instance, would run counter to the triangle offense, which makes heavy use of the pinch-post. (The Knicks had the third-most elbow touches in the NBA this season, per NBA.com)

Also, Hornacek’s allergy to long 2-point shots is, in many ways, the antithesis of the Knicks’ current style of offense, given that they ranked No. 1 and No. 5 in 2014 and 2015, respectively, in their rate of 2-pointers from 20 feet or further, according to Stats LLC.

Yikes @ the bolded part. I knew it was bad...didn't know it was 4 consecutive seasons though. That's abysmal.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/jeff-ho...-with-knickswhich-is-probably-good-1463520353

 

[8pm at msg]

Way too many long mid-range shots which could mean two things:

1) Guys settle for those shots because they can't get to the rim
2) Our offense pretty much dictates that these are the best shots we can get

It's just nasty. Hornacek should hopefully turn that around but like I said, a big part of the change hinges on the development of the worthwhile guys and maybe a lucky addition or so.

 

[kingfoamnyc]

Back to being an entertaining offensive team

Melo playing at his strengths

KP being properly developed

Gonna be a really entertaining season I predict a #6 seed

 

[gregzzy23]

reports swirling phil is stepping down this week. Lol

 

[kingfoamnyc]

reports swirling phil is stepping down this week. Lol

Yaasssss

 

[nick.]

report is fake

 

[nick.]

Until about a week ago I was convinced Knicks president Phil Jackson was going to remove the interim tag and keep Kurt Rambis on a full time basis. The other choices seemed to be David Blatt, Frank Vogel and Hornacek. I would have bet all my money (so pretty much nothing) on either of the two not named Hornacek.

A litte bit of background here. I live in Phoenix and I covered the Suns on a semi-regular basis during Hornacek’s two years and change with the organization. I’ve interviewed him during the draft workout process, at practices, plus before and after games. Hornacek was always open and honest regarding his philosophies and the players on the roster.

Even with all of this exposure to him I’m not totally sure what to make of the hire.

Hornacek’s time with the Suns got off to a tremendous start when they overachieved in 2013-14 going 48-34 and just missing the playoffs. They were even better than those 48 wins too. Phoenix was 28-15 with Eric Bledsoe in the lineup and 20-19 when he wasn’t, and he Suns ranked eighth offensively (offensive rating per 100 possessions) and 13th defensively.

While everyone remembers the Suns falling apart due to chemistry issues the following year, what people forget is they started off 28-20, and were 29-25 before dealing Goran Dragic and Isaiah Thomas at the trade deadline. From that point forward, the Suns cratered, finishing the season 10-18.

In Hornacek’s first 136 games his record stood at 77-59 (.566 win-percentage) and in his final 77 he went 24-53 (.311 win-percentage).

What makes Jackson picking Hornacek strange isn’t his time ending with the Suns poorly — it’s more that he’s the exact opposite of the type of coach you’d expect Jackson would put in charge to carry out his vision. To wit, reports from pretty much every single person on the Knicks beat have already surfaced that they will no longer be running the full blown triangle on offense. That makes sense if you’re going forward with Hornacek as your head coach.

His offenses in Phoenix were based around dribble penetration and spacing. Hornacek never cared about traditional positional designations. He played two point guards and sometimes even three, he’d play a power forward at center, a small forward at power forward and so on. One of the biggest reasons the 13-14 team had success was the 750 minutes Channing Frye and Markieff Morris played together. They put up a 115.4 ORtg and 103.8 DRtg.

I bring up that specific pair due to New York having Kristaps Porzingis and Carmelo Anthony. The Knicks duo can bring the same type of offensive spacing only with more versatility offensively and a rim protecting big the Suns twosome lacked. This will make the game easier for a dribble-drive guard like Jerian Grant as he enters his second-year, who will also undoubtedly be utilized in pick and roll more with Porzingis than he was last season.

Let’s be clear here, Hornacek believes in modern offensive tenets, but this he’s not going to turn the Knicks into the Houston Rockets. The Suns did rank fifth and 11th in threes taken per 100 possessions during Hornacek’s first two seasons, but they didn’t completely ignore the mid-range game.

In an interview with Zach Lowe, then of Grantland, Hornacek described his thoughts on shot locations:

"Oh, yeah. We gotta get rid of that long 2. I’m not opposed to the middle jumper, in that 15- or 16-foot range. I think all but two teams that were in the playoffs, their effective field goal percentages were above 51 percent. If you can shoot 15-footers and shoot 52 percent, OK, you’re beating the average. You can’t totally discount those shots."

Right. We’ll take a look at it all. But the ones we have to eliminate are the ones that are within 4 or 5 feet of the 3-point line. Those are low-percentage shots worth two points.

Hornacek will play to the talent he has on the court. Robin Lopez and Anthony will still get post up opportunities. New York will still utilize Anthony’s mid-range game just in smaller doses and Porzingis won’t become one-trick pony. The modern tendencies Hornacek held on offense also transferred to the defensive end. His defensive assistant was Mike Longabardi, a Tom Thibodeau disciple.

I’d put the Suns average to below average rankings during Hornacek’s time more on the personnel than the scheme. Miles Plumee had a good 35-40 games and then fell off a cliff, Alex Len was too young, and Tyson Chandler’s legs were dead — the Suns never had a quality defensive anchor at the center position.

Lopez and Porzingis immediately become the two best defensive big men Hornacek has had the opportunity to coach. The Knicks should make strides as the playing time decreases for the laterally challenged Jose Calderon and Arron Afflalo (hopefully) opts out.

There’s nothing about Hornacek strategically to think he’d hold them back if they put the proper pieces in place.

Hey! This all seems extremely positive so what could go wrong?

Well, it can’t be ignored how the Suns weren’t able to build on Hornacek’s first season. While Hornacek wasn’t exactly put in a position to succeed, he also wasn’t able to get players to fully buy into what he was selling.

Dragic and Kieff both demanded trades, the defense regressed from year one to year two, and in year three everything fell horribly apart. It’s hard to get a feel for how much of this was Hornacek’s fault versus the front office struggling to communicate straight forward plans when roster moves were made. No players ever had anything bad to say about Hornacek–and that includes Morris–but their actions on the court didn’t always match their words.

It’s possible the Suns were just an ill-fitting team with flaws no head coach was going to be able to get through. It’s also possible the players specifically tuned out Hornacek’s message at times and he needs to get better at finding ways to bring out their best more consistently. These are the type of observations about coaching that are impossible to get a read on unless you’re inside how a team is operating.

The Knicks answered one question by preparing to hire Hornacek as their head coach. Now we wait for the answers to all the others.

http://bit.ly/1rWLNWX

 

[redd spyder]

90% got exactly what they wanted. Horny seems like a lateral move at best. in the words of 'Bama " Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I could been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but if I'm right... "

props for the reference

 

[squatchnt]

agreed. phil gained some points just by simply not hiring his boy rambis. idk how some of you guys think this is a lateral move, when all i see are positives. first, we're not running the triangle. second, rambis has a 65-164 coaching record vs 101-112. obviously thats not amazing, but at least he doesnt have almost 100 more losses than wins. hornacek also likes to play small ball which is how the warriors and cavs are playing. that also fits our roster's strengths by having KP and melo start at the 5 and 4.

The reason I say lateral is because his record got worse each year Horny coached even though his overall record is better. I wasn't a fan of the triangle and or any particular style offense other than one that gets us wins. Triangle, circle, uptempo, whatever results in wins im down for..

 

[njavier03]

true, but you have to take into consideration what he was working with in his last 2 seasons. the above article is a great insight on what happened.

 

[nick.]

You mentioned effective field goal percentage before. People tell me you’re a numbers guy. What numbers do you like to use?

I’m a math guy. I was an accounting major, so I like numbers. I look at all that stuff, and I use it as kind of background information. When you look at a five-man lineup, sometimes that’s helpful, and sometimes it’s not. You don’t know who they’re playing against, for instance. The one thing I really like to show players, which I don’t think a lot of them actually look at, is just simple shot charts. Where do they shoot the ball well from? And where don’t they?

You’d be surprised how many times I ask a player, “If I make a play for you to shoot from the free throw line, that’s a great shot for you, right?” And the guy will say, “Oh, yeah, absolutely.” And then I’ll pull out the sheet and show him he only shot 34 percent last year from that spot. I don’t think they understand where they shoot well from.

http://bit.ly/1Rbk1dO

these Hornacek quotes are so different from our recent coaches

 

[bm35]

Uptempo offense. Coming over from Phoenix. [emoji]129300[/emoji]

 

[johnnyredstorm]

agreed. phil gained some points just by simply not hiring his boy rambis. idk how some of you guys think this is a lateral move, when all i see are positives. first, we're not running the triangle. second, rambis has a 65-164 coaching record vs 101-112. obviously thats not amazing, but at least he doesnt have almost 100 more losses than wins. hornacek also likes to play small ball which is how the warriors and cavs are playing. that also fits our roster's strengths by having KP and melo start at the 5 and 4.

The reason I say lateral is because his record got worse each year Horny coached even though his overall record is better. I wasn't a fan of the triangle and or any particular style offense other than one that gets us wins. Triangle, circle, uptempo, whatever results in wins im down for..

They pulled the rug under him blowing that team up. Traded dragic, trained baby zeke, they set him up to fail. I like our chances here. Horny made Channing frye a lot of money if he can turn KP who is more talented into a 20 ppg scorer he's well worth it.

 

[earldagoat]

 

[lver of jordan]

 

[squatchnt]

agreed. phil gained some points just by simply not hiring his boy rambis. idk how some of you guys think this is a lateral move, when all i see are positives. first, we're not running the triangle. second, rambis has a 65-164 coaching record vs 101-112. obviously thats not amazing, but at least he doesnt have almost 100 more losses than wins. hornacek also likes to play small ball which is how the warriors and cavs are playing. that also fits our roster's strengths by having KP and melo start at the 5 and 4.

The reason I say lateral is because his record got worse each year Horny coached even though his overall record is better. I wasn't a fan of the triangle and or any particular style offense other than one that gets us wins. Triangle, circle, uptempo, whatever results in wins im down for..

They pulled the rug under him blowing that team up. Traded dragic, trained baby zeke, they set him up to fail. I like our chances here. Horny made Channing frye a lot of money if he can turn KP who is more talented into a 20 ppg scorer he's well worth it.

Im not too familiar with what went on out there, just stats I googled and I did notice the trade of dragic and Bledsoe after you mentioned it. All I can do is sit back, watch and hope for the best. Im willing to live vicariously through others excitement until Hornys got some games under his belt.

 

[Hahahaha]

I think Vogel was the right choice, I think he's what we really needed. Him getting let go was just too good so I knew it wasn't gonna happen. I wanted Thibbs bad as ****, we messed that all the way up. I wanted Vogel bad as ****, knew we wouldn't go there. Hornacek seems okay, had good and bad moments. I still think Vogel was the right guy, still not sure how to feel about this.

 

[Air Pope]

It's a player's league. We just saw Pop get beat by Billy Donavan. I'm more concern about the players we can get in the offseason.

 

[losalmighty]

I think Vogel was the right choice, I think he's what we really needed. Him getting let go was just too good so I knew it wasn't gonna happen. I wanted Thibbs bad as ****, we messed that all the way up. I wanted Vogel bad as ****, knew we wouldn't go there. Hornacek seems okay, had good and bad moments. I still think Vogel was the right guy, still not sure how to feel about this.

there was no way Thibs was coming here. Even if he did want to coach the knicks there is no way his agent lets him take less power than what he eventually got in MIN. Those deals don't happen overnight. Even had we reached out to him, MIN would've just popped up sooner with that deal. As an agents it is your job to get your client the right deal. Oh, you want my guy to coach, what else you got to offer? its Thibs. not some snot nosed new comer.

Vogel is meh. I'm good with JH.

 

[squatchnt]

Where's Melo to make sense of all this

 

[art vandelay]

Where's Melo to make sense of all this

Trying on and purchasing many hats. Many, many hats.

 

[kingfoamnyc]

I love the hire.

 

[ravagebx]

I'm indifferent about Horny. Just glad its not Rambis or Blatt.

 

[pr0phecy718]

Where's Melo to make sense of all this

 

[nick.]

Melo's everywhere but the playoffs