Official DragonBall Z Thread. R.I.P Akira Toriyama. You will be missed

[rico x hood]

Agreed. Vegeta is fully able to sense Frieza's power level from the start of the fight to the end and at no point shows any doubts that he himself could take on Frieza. Goku also doesn't doubt Vegeta's power, really only being the one that fights because Freiza himself is only interested in Goku. In the manga, after Resurrection, they're then shown training and are evenly matched. Not really like it's impossible for Vegeta to equal Goku or being stronger. As Super Saiyan 2's during the Buu Saga both matched each other perfectly, and when Vegeta became a Super Saiyan during the Android Saga it was outright stated that he was stronger than Goku.

Android Saga, Goku was dying of a heart virus when Vegeta turned Super Saiyan. So I guess it makes sense that'd he'd be stronger. Look I'm not at all saying that it's impossible for both to be evenly matched post Resurrection of F. But there really isn't any evidence to support that. Yea, they both sensed Frieza's ki but just because Vegeta felt he could defeat him doesn't show that him and Goku are equal, it just means they were both stronger than Frieza. Battling with Whis, they were in their base forms just sparring. That really can't be used as an example of their powers because they don't use their full powers to spar.

 

[jays25]

Agreed. Vegeta is fully able to sense Frieza's power level from the start of the fight to the end and at no point shows any doubts that he himself could take on Frieza. Goku also doesn't doubt Vegeta's power, really only being the one that fights because Freiza himself is only interested in Goku. In the manga, after Resurrection, they're then shown training and are evenly matched. Not really like it's impossible for Vegeta to equal Goku or being stronger. As Super Saiyan 2's during the Buu Saga both matched each other perfectly, and when Vegeta became a Super Saiyan during the Android Saga it was outright stated that he was stronger than Goku.

Android Saga, Goku was dying of a heart virus when Vegeta turned Super Saiyan. So I guess it makes sense that'd he'd be dying. Look I'm not at all saying that they're both evenly matched now post Resurrection of F. But there really isn't any evidence to support that. Yea, they both sensed Frieza's ki but just because Vegeta felt he could defeat him doesn't show that him and Goku are equal, it just means they were both stronger than Frieza. Battling with Whis, they were in their base forms just sparring. That really can't be used as an example of their powers because they don't use their full powers to spar.

The heart disease doesn't manifest until midway through Goku's fight with Android 19, hence him not having started taking the medicine up until then. Before that, everyone felt his power level and then felt Vegeta's right afterwards, and proclaimed Vegeta as the superior.

I didn't say it was definite. I said that I feel there's more to imply they're equal than anything else, and that within the context of the series it's not like its impossible. Heck, Vegeta was stronger than Goku the first time they fought. Vegeta surpassed Goku for a moment in Battle of Gods, and Goku admits as much. There's then been nothing to imply that Goku at the moment is stronger than Vegeta. The spar is jus a showing that they're around the same level, as if their spar against Whis prior, as they're both consistently matching each other in all of these cases and doing just as well, or poorly. Neither does better or worse than the other, there's therefore no reason to think either is better or worse than the other. I then think that the attitudes of both character's in Resurrection, and the way Beerus and Whis treat them, is really just further implying all of this. They're clearly similar in strength, so until there's a case where one trumps the other I see no reason to assume anything except them being equal.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

The heart disease doesn't manifest until midway through Goku's fight with Android 19, hence him not having started taking the medicine up until then. Before that, everyone felt his power level and then felt Vegeta's right afterwards, and proclaimed Vegeta as the superior.

I didn't say it was definite. I said that I feel there's more to imply they're equal than anything else, and that within the context of the series it's not like its impossible. Heck, Vegeta was stronger than Goku the first time they fought. Vegeta surpassed Goku for a moment in Battle of Gods, and Goku admits as much. There's then been nothing to imply that Goku at the moment is stronger than Vegeta. The spar is jus a showing that they're around the same level, as if their spar against Whis prior, as they're both consistently matching each other in all of these cases and doing just as well, or poorly. Neither does better or worse than the other, there's therefore no reason to think either is better or worse than the other. I then think that the attitudes of both character's in Resurrection, and the way Beerus and Whis treat them, is really just further implying all of this. They're clearly similar in strength, so until there's a case where one trumps the other I see no reason to assume anything except them being equal.

This. You dont always need hard numbers or actual events to occur to make a pretty valid and accurate assumption. Although the rivalry between goku and vegeta has been going on since the beginning it has never been depicted the way it is now. When have we ever seen goku and vegeta spar against each other other than when it was a battle to death? let alone use the same method of training. At almost every point in DBZ someone was clearly stronger than the other. For the first time they have the same master under going the same training and on top of that they train with eachother.  Throw in the events of RoF, vegeta and gokus demeanor and how they behaved towards eachother as well as how they were both talked about, viewed, and treated by whis and beerus id say the writers are more than implying that goku and vegeta are at the very least at similar levels of strength.

 

[cs02132]

Finished dbz yesterday. Missing it already

Man .. Buu is a God damn BEAST! I was really wondering what it's gonna take to beat him, especially when they were saying that kid buu is his strongest form.. I like super buu the best out of his forms, he's crazy. No romo but his voice/scream was .. Hercule was clutch

Glad to see vegeta come around at the end .. He was finally reasonable .. Him and goku really got turned into chocolate ball and were still doing damage

I think I like the android/cell saga the best, especially cell. Cell vs gohan is probably my favorite battle. **** had me amped.. I'm a little disappointed that gohan and gotenk didn't turn out to be animals .. They're both kinda dubs


Used mad emoticons but hey, dbz is

 

[goldmember]

Ummm in the latest manga. When Goku and Vegeta were sparring in base forms. Vegeta couldnt keep up so he has to transform to the SSJ blue and blasted goku lol

Also, didnt whis stated in revival of f that goku is still stronger than vegeta during their training? Before he explained their own weaknesses.

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Ummm in the latest manga. When Goku and Vegeta were sparring in base forms. Vegeta couldnt keep up so he has to transform to the SSJ blue and blasted goku lol

Also, didnt whis stated in revival of f that goku is still stronger than vegeta during their training? Before he explained their own weaknesses.

The manga never says Goku is stronger than vegeta. Whis says what holds vegeta back is that he thinks too much about what he does or something a long those lines. It never states that gokus advantage is based on strength necessarily.

 

[goldmember]

The manga never says Goku is stronger than vegeta. Whis says what holds vegeta back is that he thinks too much about what he does or something a long those lines. It never states that gokus advantage is based on strength necessarily.

Not talking about the revival of f scene on my first sentence. I was referring to the very latest manga that was released few days ago. The one where they announce the 5vs5 mutli universe tourney. Prior to champa and vhados showing up. Goku and vegeta was sparring/training with whis. Also the same time where whis suggested to goku to call the SSJGSSJ..SSJ blue


I havent seen the revival of f since the theatrical release but im pretty sure whis stated goku is still stronger than vegeta.. Hence why he said " you just have to bring that up " or something along the lines

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Not talking about the revival of f scene on my first sentence. I was referring to the very latest manga that was released few days ago. The one where they announce the 5vs5 mutli universe tourney. Prior to champa and vhados showing up. Goku and vegeta was sparring/training with whis. Also the same time where whis suggested to goku to call the SSJGSSJ..SSJ blue


I havent seen the revival of f since the theatrical release but im pretty sure whis stated goku is still stronger than vegeta.. Hence why he said " you just have to bring that up " or something along the lines

I know what you're talking about but it still applies because even in that manga Whis attributes gokus loosing his edge to getting to focused on beating goku and losing sight which to me implies a mindset problem that when left unchecked affects his fighting. Not that he is weaker than goku.
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[goldmember]

Actually Whis stated in the movie " you're still one step behind goku, am i right? "

Just re-watched the scene alone

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Actually Whis stated in the movie " you're still one step behind goku, am i right? "

Just re-watched the scene alone

Which again doesn't necessarily imply a strength difference. In that scene whis goes on to describe what has been holding vegeta back in the past was his mindset and mentality and his ability to keep his cool. In the latest manga when vegeta got to focused on beating goku is when he started "losing" the sparring match, and whis called him out on it.

I see it more as a mental handicap as opposed to a difference in strength.

 

[goldmember]

To me it does anyway. Im sure when he said that he meant overall strength or as a fighter. Every fighter has weakness. If goku also improves on his " too relax " problem? What then?

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

To me it does anyway. Im sure when he said that he meant overall strength or as a fighter. Every fighter has weakness. If goku also improves on his " too relax " problem? What then?

But whis never states that goku is stronger than vegeta after they reach their god forms. He just points out both the flaws they have that hinder their progress

 

[goldmember]

But in the latest manga..the reason why vegeta gets frustrated is because be cant keep up with goku, am i right? Unless im reading it wrong. Vegeta even said i wont be one step behind you forever, kakarot. Thats why he transforms outta nowhere and ki blasted goku due to same frustration

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

But in the latest manga..the reason why vegeta gets frustrated is because be cant keep up with goku, am i right? Unless im reading it wrong. Vegeta even said i wont be one step behind you forever, kakarot. Thats why he transforms outta nowhere and ki blasted goku due to same frustration

Take a closer look at that manga. Neither of them landed a hit on eachother the entire fight before vegeta transformed. They were both in the same exact situation, except instead of remaining calm like goku, vegeta got frustrated because he wasn't winning. Not because he was losing. It wasn't until vegeta lost his cool that goku was about to hit him. They were pretty much equal until vegeta's "heart got unruly"
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[goldmember]

He said it tho

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[frenchbreadbuilds]

He said it tho

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Clear reference to the past. He acknowledging that goku was stronger in the past. How does it look or even fit into the context of vegetas character to tell goku "hey I'm weaker than you" as he's attacking him?

 

[hyper cutter]

Gohan>Vegeta

 

[rico x hood]

Bruh just take the L. You're delving into characters mindsets and making it psychological. My man just gave hard physical evidence that Goku is still stronger. Quit the mental gymnastics and end this battle of semantics because that's all you're doing at this point.

 

[goldmember]

 

[Undefined]

future trunks > mr popo > goku > guldo

 

[antidope]

I mean if you get mad you're not winning then basically cheat then you were losing.

 

[yotk13]

Vegeta > Goku. End of discussion

 

[lamekilla]

Vegeta is essentially a comic relief. He's there to explain how Goku is so ridiculously powerful and just plain out lucky as opposed to Vegeta's character that has had to work hard for every single thing and still gets nowhere.

Wrath of the dragon is a perfect interpretation of what I mean. Vegeta was in the film for the sake of being in the film and is comedically dismissed within the course of 30 seconds and never heard from again. Goku on the other hand is essentially superman in the film. Brilliant on Toriyama's end. It makes Goku that much more endearing

 

[aepps20]

Vegeta should go on dancing with the Stars. He's good at that

 

[frenchbreadbuilds]

Bruh just take the L. You're delving into characters mindsets and making it psychological. My man just gave hard physical evidence that Goku is still stronger. Quit the mental gymnastics and end this battle of semantics because that's all you're doing at this point.

Lmao is this your first DBZ discussion? You can't take a single frame from a single page of the manga, which translated BY FANS, and use it with zero context. I read what he said and context still applies. He fends off an unsuccessful attack from goku and basically says "that might have worked in the past, but not anymore" and then sends goku flying. And if we're going by what vegeta is saying only are we going to ignore what he says in literally the same chapter?

"Semantics" right?
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Thanks for contributing to the discussion though