OFFICIAL LOS ANGELES CLIPPERS 2024 OFFSEASON THREAD

[lawdog1]

This unit that Doc has been starting is not that effective. He needs to not be so devoted to it.

 

[HIM]

Batum takes every jumpshot hoping to draw a foul. Been doing it for years.


Austin Rivers should not be a ballhandler. He is an offense killer.


Great game! Looks like we're gonna lose but Jawun keeps showing me things that I like. Something we haven't mentioned is Lou's amazing play and what he can potentially get us in a trade at the deadline.

Go Clips!!

 

[P C H]

Sigh

 

[P C H]

We ready for the Sam Cassell era?

 

[lawdog1]

^^^ And PCH, my man, I’m pretty much at my patience limit with your boy Austin. It’s not even him not playing well. But his pouting after missed shots/bad plays has hurt us in the last couple games. He honestly should have been riding the bench in the 4th quarter of this game.

 

[P C H]

^^^ And PCH, my man, I’m pretty much at my patience limit with your boy Austin. It’s not even him not playing well. But his pouting after missed shots/bad plays has hurt us in the last couple games. He honestly should have been riding the bench in the 4th quarter of this game.

He didn't play well in that 4th at all, but he's a bench player. That variance is to be expected. He also exploded in the 4th against the Cavs last night. He's just like the JR Smiths, Crawford, and Dion Waiters of the world. But he's a current starter, and most coaches close games with their starters. Who would you have in the game with this roster, if we're trying to win? Sin? Jawun?

Austin's my guy, but I'm not irrational about him. My only issue is that the pendulum swings too far one way with him.

 

[lawdog1]

^^^ Tonight, I would have played Sin, Juwan or even Dekker over Austin. He was playing that badly. We’re down 3 starters. Our line-ups are necessarily make-shift. Play who gives you the best chance to win.

 

[hardens beard]

 

[HIM]

I think if this thing hits double digits and/or includes a bad loss to the lakers, we'll see the end of Doc.

I'll give him credit for turning DJ into an elite center for a period of time. Vinny was benching DJ entire 4th quarters lmfao. Doc came in and made it a point to call us a "big 3." I think little things like that went a long way in giving DJ confidence and making him a better player. Blake expanded his game and now has one of the best skillsets at his position. Sure, he may have done that regardless, but let's give Doc a little credit for encouraging him to add a 3 ball year after year.

The thing that always bothered me with Doc were his rotations. Every fanbase hates their coach's rotations but Doc does things like not play rookies (forced to this year), not adjust regardless of team performance with certain groups, and the refusal to stagger Blake and CP3. Even now, why not start Lou? Why not even give it a try? He is clearly better than both Austin and Thornwell. Just from the eyetest, he has been at the very least an adequate defender. Th biggest offense to me was the Houston playoff series. I remember reading and hearing that CP3 was ready to go but Doc chose to rest him because we were up 2-0. **** that, play him and go for the kill. We win that series if Chris Paul plays game 3. I wholeheartedly believe that. I appreciate and I think he is a good coach, but much like Chris Paul, it's just time to move on.

I would really like a coach that is known for pushing the pace. I want a young coach, preferably someone who has not been a head coach in tha nba. Give me some new blood. To draw a prallel, the Rams went from literally the worst offense last season, and a perennial awful offense, to the best this season. The change? Got rid of an old coach and hired a 31 year old offensive guru. Different sport, and an anomaly for sure, but give us something different. I don't want a George Karl or a Scott Skiles or a Mark Jackson . Give me a Jerry Stackhouse or Brent Barry or a young stud NCAA coach. Take a chance. Hell, if Cassell shows promise, offer him the gig. I've hesrd nothing but good things about him and I would assume he'd be an offensive minded coach.

Go Clips!!

 

[lawdog1]

I would really like a coach that is known for pushing the pace. I want a young coach, preferably someone who has not been a head coach in tha nba. Give me some new blood. To draw a prallel, the Rams went from literally the worst offense last season, and a perennial awful offense, to the best this season. The change? Got rid of an old coach and hired a 31 year old offensive guru. Different sport, and an anomaly for sure, but give us something different. I don't want a George Karl or a Scott Skiles or a Mark Jackson . Give me a Jerry Stackhouse or Brent Barry or a young stud NCAA coach. Take a chance. Hell, if Cassell shows promise, offer him the gig. I've hesrd nothing but good things about him and I would assume he'd be an offensive minded coach.

Go Clips!!

This was beautiful, bro. I wholeheartedly agree. No retread coaches to replace Doc. Take a chance on someone. The two best coaching hires in the NBA over the last 4 years are so are two guys who had no previous NBA head coaching experience. Kerr came out of the booth and Brad Stevens came from college. And they're among the top 5 coaches in the league right now. I'd also be ok with a highly regarded assistant or G-league coach. IF Doc gets fired during the season, give Cassel his shot though.

Another thing about Doc that's long bothered me -- and I think it ties in to your point about his rotations -- is that we never seem to get the most out of the guys we bring over to be bench players. I mean, not many coaches max out the abilities of the fringe guys, but it has almost never happened in the Doc era. The only guy I can think of who really exceeded expectations was Cole Aldrich . . . and Doc only started playing him because injuries forced him to. So many others have been total failures -- Mullens, Hawes, Lance, Josh Smith, CDR, Farmar. This list goes on. He's just so rigid with his substitution pattern and deferential to guys he's familiar with that it's hard for new players to get really comfortable under him.

All that said, given where we're at, I can live with Doc finishing out the season. Go Clippers!

 

[P C H]

I think it's pretty obvious that Doc has at most this season left with us, so regardless we'll be getting a new coach soon. Regardless, I just think that every team's fanbase hates their coach when their team isn't doing well and while Doc certainly isn't perfect, he gets criticized for things all good coaches do. From rotations to not playing young guys, relying on vets too much, all good coaches pretty much have this issue.

Hell steve kerr has 2 rings in 3 seasons and people still kill him for his rotations. Idk, I'm pretty sure i'm alone in this but I just don't see what doc has done in his tenure with LAC that's been so egregious or bad. We won a lot, got pretty unlucky with injuries, and to me that's the story.

 

[P C H]

This could happen

 

[lawdog1]

It’s not that Doc has been bad or done anything egregious. But he’s been here for six years and we’re not progressing under him and I have no confidence we will if he stays. When a team reaches that point with a coach it’s time to move on.

VDN didn’t do anything “wrong” either, but when the team felt like he couldn’t take them where they wanted to go, they let him go. IMO, we’re at the same place with Doc.

There’s little risk in firing him and potentially a high reward if whoever we bring in to replace him gets more out of the team.

 

[P C H]

It’s not that Doc has been bad or done anything egregious. But he’s been here for six years and we’re not progressing under him and I have no confidence we will if he stays. When a team reaches that point with a coach it’s time to move on.

VDN didn’t do anything “wrong” either, but when the team felt like he couldn’t take them where they wanted to go, they let him go. IMO, we’re at the same place with Doc.

There’s little risk in firing him and potentially a high reward if whoever we bring in to replace him gets more out of the team.

Idk bro, because how much of it is us not progressing vs the players flat out choking or getting hurt at the most inopportune times? If CP&Blake and co don't nut up in the 4th in G6 against Hou, would this conversation be different? So much of success in the NBA is luck based. I mean Doc has seasons with us where he won 57 games with CP missing almost 20, that's not good? He has a 53 win season where Blake missed 42 games, that's spectacular stuff. He's had to deal with a ton of really unlucky injuries and flat out freak incidents during his tenure that to me go a long way towards the lack of progression that he's shown with the Clippers.

Also from a pure basketball standpoint aesthetically, The Clippers progressed. Blake got better under Doc, DJ got better under Doc, CP had arguably 2 of his 3 best seasons under Doc, JJ Redick became a 70 Million dollar man under Doc, and the clips had some real sustained success. That's progression.

That being said, things do get stale and I totally understand letting doc go and perhaps the next coach and tap into some untapped potential with the organization, I'm just saying that Doc as a coach to me has been fine, and more than anything if his superstars remained healthy this conversation is much different.

 

[lawdog1]

Idk bro, because how much of it is us not progressing vs the players flat out choking .... at the most inopportune times?

That's a legit question, but one that is pretty difficult to answer. Personally, I think coaching can be pretty influential on whether or not teams choke. And, along those lines, it's hard to me to absolve Doc of any blame for our playoff meltdowns, particularly when I consider that Doc teams have blown more playoff series lead than any other coach in NBA history. It happened in Orlando, Boston and with us. He has coached two different teams that have blown 3-1 series leads. His teams are 12-24 in playoff close-out games. Hard for me to look at those numbers and put it all on his players just choking. There seems to be something about the way he coaches that is not particularly effective in calming guys down and bringing out the best in them when things are going badly.

Maybe I'm wrong about Doc, but his playoff record as a coach seems to back me up. Plus, we'll never really know until we see this team (or more specifically, Blake) play under someone else.

 

[P C H]

That's a legit question, but one that is pretty difficult to answer. Personally, I think coaching can be pretty influential on whether or not teams choke. And, along those lines, it's hard to me to absolve Doc of any blame for our playoff meltdowns, particularly when I consider that Doc teams have blown more playoff series lead than any other coach in NBA history. It happened in Orlando, Boston and with us. He has coached two different teams that have blown 3-1 series leads. His teams are 12-24 in playoff close-out games. Hard for me to look at those numbers and put it all on his players just choking. There seems to be something about the way he coaches that is not particularly effective in calming guys down and bringing out the best in them when things are going badly.

Maybe I'm wrong about Doc, but his playoff record as a coach seems to back me up. Plus, we'll never really know until we see this team (or more specifically, Blake) play under someone else.

Not absolving doc from all blame at all, but there is inherent fallacies in looking at results in a black and white way, at least with a sport as Complex as basketball.

For instance, he blew a 3-1 lead in Orlando to Detroit, but Detroit was obviously much better, and TMac was a 1 man show. The fact that they were up 3-1 against the pistons when they had no business winning a single game, may allude to his ability as a coach. How much of it was coaching vs. Detroit finally playing up to their seeding? What was the context behind his record in closeout games?

Clips blew a 3-1 lead to Hou and in game 6, blew that 20 pt 4th quarter lead but how did they get a 3-1 lead in the first place with CP not even being healthy? How much of game 6 was bad coaching vs what IMO, is the reality which is that "Luck" happened. Luck happens in sports and ****, if Corey Brewer + Josh Smith are going to rain 3's and that's how you lost? That's not on coaching. Sometimes, it really is that simple. You could play that game back 100 different times and 99 times Corey Brewer and Josh Smith wouldn't get that hot.

And finally, the "calming effect" was supposed to be with Chris Paul. He's the leader. He's the coach on the floor. He's the franchise guy. When you watch games around the league, and things are erratic it's your best player who makes key plays to bring you through. I can't, in good faith, say that Doc Rivers blew G6 against Hou when Chris and Blake are on the floor and getting beat by Brewer and Josh Smith and Jason Terry. Chris Paul turning it over G5 in OKC is not coaching, that's him. That's not coaching, but when things go wrong people need someone to blame.

I feel like the coach is supposed to put you in positions to succeed and then your best players are supposed to carry you over the top. They were in prime position to take OKC, to Take Houston. The players didn't come through. Blake Griffin becomes a mental ******. Chris Paul has had his moments. Is that because of Doc? I don't think so. At the end of the day you're on the floor with a chance to win, you're supposed to take us home and they didn't, and per NBA culture, the coach gets blamed.

 

[lawdog1]

^^^ You make some valid points. But Instand by what I’ve said and there’s really no way to know which of us is right about this.

Again, I freely admit Doc is a good coach, but I also think sometimes change for change sake is a good thing. This is one of those times.

 

[P C H]

^^^ You make some valid points. But Instand by what I’ve said and there’s really no way to know which of us is right about this.

Again, I freely admit Doc is a good coach, but I also think sometimes change for change sake is a good thing. This is one of those times.

That last point I agree with. Sometimes change is good. He has been here 6 years, and a new coach could bring something great to us. Some new fresh, vibrant energy may be what this team needs. I'd love for us to go with a brand new first time head coach. Casey Hill, who coached the G League dubs to a chip and who's our HC in Ontario would be a dope look.

I'm not married to Doc in the least, I just feel that our shortcomings with LAC had way more to do with injuries and bad luck than whatever ineptness that Doc has displayed as a coach.

 

[lawdog1]

There for sure is no singular reason for our lack of post-season success. Injuries, luck, coaching, player failings. It’s just a matter of degrees.

 

[rfx45]

it can also be argued that Doc has been blessed with good players who helped the team win despite his lack of coaching skills

his rotations and plays (pick n roll, pick n roll, pick n roll) plus him pretty much screwing with the Clips future by giving up draft picks and spending way too much on old players are factors to be considered

even healthy, I have a feeling that the team probably couldn't win with Doc anyways because he doesn't adapt to the situations

 

[P C H]

it can also be argued that Doc has been blessed with good players who helped the team win despite his lack of coaching skills

his rotations and plays (pick n roll, pick n roll, pick n roll) plus him pretty much screwing with the Clips future by giving up draft picks and spending way too much on old players are factors to be considered

even healthy, I have a feeling that the team probably couldn't win with Doc anyways because he doesn't adapt to the situations

I mean, the clips playbook is a bit more vast than that. That's an insanely simplistic way of looking at his sets. I don't want to get too basketball nerdy with it, but horns, horns twist, reject, wheel, he runs wayyyy more than PnR and PnPs all game. Plus, if Chris Paul is on your team, why wouldn't you run a ton of PnR? I've had issues with his rotations, but like...what coach isn't criticized for his rotations? Like I said, Steve Kerr has 2 chips and people still lament his rotations.

And you can argue it, but most great coaches have great players. He got a COTY with virtually nobody in Orlando, for what it's worth.







Just two examples. Doc is very creative w/ the x's and o's. And we were talking about Doc the coach, not GM, who also wasn't nearly as bad as people think. Every pick he gave up was late 20's and 2nd round picks that were lottery protected. With them pursuing a championship, none of those picks would have amounted to anything because Young players don't play on contending teams.

 

[rfx45]

I don't remember Kerr being criticized too much from his rotations but they're winning so it's harder to argue with it.

If the Clips were winning, we wouldn't be having this discussion so that point is somewhat moot.

And why not use PnR if you have CP3? Because it stops working once you have to win 4 games out of a 7 series. More often than not, it keeps the ball from moving> Yes he has a vast array of plays but how often is it used? How often has Blake been stuck with the ball in his hand behind the arc with no plays developing? As I said, dude isn't adapting. He ha done of the best PGs (maybe ever) and he can't come up with better plays? That last plays converts 84% of the time but how often do they use it?

As for every great coach has a good player, yes they do but a good coach makes them better (with a few exceptions) to win more. I feel like Doc hasn't done that, his Celtics team won a chip due to the players and not him and with the talent the Clips has he hasn't been able to go beyond that plateau.

You keep saying you're not married to Doc but really you have all the defense in the world for him. Plain and simple the Clips are terrible and it's time for him to go. There really is no defending this guy anymore and yes I admit that is from a fans PoV so it can be unreasonable but really this team is going nowhere with him, plain and simple.

 

[HIM]

I've always been a Doc supporter. I don't buy the "overrated" theory. He's good imo. I still want a new coach though. It's the same way I wanted Chris Paul gone this year.

lawdog1 you ever wonder how we put up with losing seasons for the majority of this franchise's existence? Like this season is eating me up alive and this we the norm for my entire life

 

[lawdog1]

lawdog1 you ever wonder how we put up with losing seasons for the majority of this franchise's existence? Like this season is eating me up alive and this we the norm for my entire life

A sustained taste of winning done changed us, bruh, even if it was mostly just in the regular season. We might get used to losing again, but I hope we don't have to.

As far as Doc being overrated, I have to again mention that term being a pet peeve of mine. I don't really like it, particularly when it comes to highly subjective things like music and movies. But even in sports, people throw the term "overrated" out without really thinking about what the player or team actually is "rated." At this point, most people think Doc is a good coach, but not on the same level of the super elite coaches like Pop, Phil Jackson, etc. I think that's right, so I would agree that he's not overrated. There may have been a time when he was a bit overrated, but that time has passed.

But the bottom line is, just being good isn't enough if a coach can't help the franchise meet it's goals. And that's where we stand with Doc, so time to move on.

Anyway, enough about Glenn. I feel like tonight is going to go like most of our recent games. Will be close going into the 4th. We'll see if we finally show the will and execution to pull a close game out.

 

[rfx45]

Not if you got Rivers shooting free throws in the end.