- May 29, 2006
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I think the mediocre line was referring to Carwin. But I agree with your points
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- Thread in 'Sports & Training' Thread starter Started by monopolyman630,
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I think the mediocre line was referring to Carwin. But I agree with your points
bastitch
Staff member
- Jan 10, 2000
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Read it again. He's clearly talking about Brock.
- Nov 25, 2007
- 2,856
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http://www.compustrike.co...arison/lesnar-carwin.php
Notes: Both landed more than half their total strikes, with Lesnar throwing twice as many. Lesnar averaged nearly as many ground strikes landed as Carwin did total strikes thrown. 81% of Lesnar’s strikes landed were from the ground. Lesnar was on the ground for 65% of his four UFC fights. Carwin was on the feet for 76% of his four UFC fights.
Notes: Both landed more than half their total strikes, with Lesnar throwing twice as many. Lesnar averaged nearly as many ground strikes landed as Carwin did total strikes thrown. 81% of Lesnar’s strikes landed were from the ground. Lesnar was on the ground for 65% of his four UFC fights. Carwin was on the feet for 76% of his four UFC fights.
- Jul 10, 2005
- 2,920
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What a fight. Brock showed the heart of a true champion. Any haters should stop. He's a legit mixed martial artist and a bonafide champion. I guessed Brock in 2 by TKO but not surprised he was able to pull off the submission. Dude is a hungry learner. Not the stupid loud-mouth redneck that many assume he is.
- May 11, 2007
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Brock better than god herb dean wasnt in there
- Apr 25, 2005
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What the %@$! are you talking about? Herb Dean is the best ref in MMA.
- Nov 24, 2009
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I like Brock as a fighter and respect his skills. But there will always be haters out there that discredit him no matter what. The same people who say Carwin was going to destroy him and take his belt are the same people who say Carwin wasn't that good to begin with. Velasquez and JDS will be the next tests for Brock. It'll be great to see if they can use their slick standup and land some good powershots on him. Last night has got me wanting to see Ubereem fight him since we now know he can get hurt by punches.
- Feb 9, 2010
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i fear for cain velasquez being taken out in his next match
- Dec 2, 2009
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how can u not respect a dude that gets his face bashed in gets up and wins the fight? i mean seriously it dont get any better than that for any tru fighting fan
- Jul 24, 2007
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Yes, I was referring to Lesnar.
When you have absolutely no Stand-up game then what can you be but mediocre in today's MMA world? Yes, Lesnar is a beast on the ground (although I would've liked to see how he worked another 260 lb+ who wasn't gassed) but his stand up is atrocious. Did you see how he was literally running away with his back toward Carwin?
Second of all, you (and others) act as if Carwin has great stand up. Carwin doesn't have great stand up skills. He does punch like a mule kicks though. If Carwin could throw even decent knees that fight would be over 2 min into the first.
It turned out that Carwin was his own biggest enemy in that fight. He started wailing on Lesnar (not landing good punches) because he was looking for a ref stoppage. He either should've picked his shots better or just stood up. Of course this is "Monday morning quarterbacking" but Carwin shot himself in the foot with that he did when he had Lesnar down.
The only thing this fight proved was that a one dimensional fighter (Carwin is even more one dimensional than Brock) is good enough to be the Champion in the HW division. Why? Because there are few real HW out there. The 230lb'ers have a huge disadvantage against the 250+'s.
However, as the payday's increase in MMA you will see more and more real HW enter the division.
What did Lesnar show in the fight? That he can sub a rag doll? If you think Carwin was anything but a rag doll on the ground in the 2nd then you're fooling yourself. He was even breathing hard in the post fight interview in the ring.
That it takes more than 1 clean Carwin shot to knock him out? Nobody said Brock had a glass chin.
btw, I don't think he fight should have been stopped. The ref did an excellent job. Imo, he should get a bonus too because another ref would've stopped that fight and in turn the better fighter (on that day) would not have won. I said that if Carwin picked his shots better and got 2-3 more clean ones in then it would've been stopped for sure (prob as a result of KO though).
bastitch
Staff member
- Jan 10, 2000
- 1,611
- 173
I've just watched the fight for the 5 and 6th times. Shane Carwin is gassed by about 2:30 in the first, and while Brock took some big shots, he was still clearly putting his arms to try to control Shane's arms and even throwing little jabs to demonstrate he was trying to defend himself. There's only maybe 15 seconds where you can really think he was ready to be stopped. But even then, he was still active on the bottom.
I'm really curious what exactly Greg Jackson's gameplan was. Carwin was so dominant in the 1st round, I'm sure a lot of that went out the door.
One of the few things I noticed during the fight that I didn't notice on first viewing and random notes:
1. Gene Simmons must be blind. He's like in the 6 row on the floor with the fighters on his side of the cage with NO obstructions and he's still watching the fight on the big screen.
2. Brock won a ton of fans over last night. During weigh-ins all the way until he came into the arena, he was getting booed heavily. It was a pretty damn memorable comeback.
3. Brock putting his lower mouthpiece in Joe Rogan's pocket is gold. Rogan's reaction is better: "I"ll sell it on eBay".
4. Jim Ross, Goldberg, Stone Cold, Dwayne Johnson and Paul Heyman all in the house was pretty neat. I'm not much of a Pro Wrestling fan anymore, but that's still awesome. IT could have only been better if he walked out holding a Singapore cane with Heyman at his side. I mean, he DID come out to "Enter Sandman".
5. Kendall Grove must have naked pictures of a Zuffa employee or something. He'll probably have a UFC job forever if he can stay above .500.
That was a fun card, wasn't it?
I'm really curious what exactly Greg Jackson's gameplan was. Carwin was so dominant in the 1st round, I'm sure a lot of that went out the door.
One of the few things I noticed during the fight that I didn't notice on first viewing and random notes:
1. Gene Simmons must be blind. He's like in the 6 row on the floor with the fighters on his side of the cage with NO obstructions and he's still watching the fight on the big screen.
2. Brock won a ton of fans over last night. During weigh-ins all the way until he came into the arena, he was getting booed heavily. It was a pretty damn memorable comeback.
3. Brock putting his lower mouthpiece in Joe Rogan's pocket is gold. Rogan's reaction is better: "I"ll sell it on eBay".
4. Jim Ross, Goldberg, Stone Cold, Dwayne Johnson and Paul Heyman all in the house was pretty neat. I'm not much of a Pro Wrestling fan anymore, but that's still awesome. IT could have only been better if he walked out holding a Singapore cane with Heyman at his side. I mean, he DID come out to "Enter Sandman".
5. Kendall Grove must have naked pictures of a Zuffa employee or something. He'll probably have a UFC job forever if he can stay above .500.
That was a fun card, wasn't it?
- Jul 24, 2007
- 5,485
- 14
Not always.
Look at my post before the fight. I said that Brock would take it.
Those first few minute surprised the hell out of me because Brock looked genuinely lost. He literally did not know %$% to do standing up.
If Overeem would take a fight from Brock then it prob wouldn't be through punches. A mediocre knee from Overeem would be about equivalent to a clean Carwin shot. Knees produce a hell of a lot more force than a punch. Knees also have the added benefit of doing (substantial) damage even if they are partially blocked.
bastitch
Staff member
- Jan 10, 2000
- 1,611
- 173
I wrote out a 3 paragraph response to this that was erased when I somehow pressed "Back", and I'm too lazy to write it all out again.Originally Posted by wawaweewa
Yes, I was referring to Lesnar.
When you have absolutely no Stand-up game then what can you be but mediocre in today's MMA world? Yes, Lesnar is a beast on the ground (although I would've liked to see how he worked another 260 lb+ who wasn't gassed) but his stand up is atrocious. Did you see how he was literally running away with his back toward Carwin?
Second of all, you (and others) act as if Carwin has great stand up. Carwin doesn't have great stand up skills. He does punch like a mule kicks though. If Carwin could throw even decent knees that fight would be over 2 min into the first.
It turned out that Carwin was his own biggest enemy in that fight. He started wailing on Lesnar (not landing good punches) because he was looking for a ref stoppage. He either should've picked his shots better or just stood up. Of course this is "Monday morning quarterbacking" but Carwin shot himself in the foot with that he did when he had Lesnar down.
The only thing this fight proved was that a one dimensional fighter (Carwin is even more one dimensional than Brock) is good enough to be the Champion in the HW division. Why? Because there are few real HW out there. The 230lb'ers have a huge disadvantage against the 250+'s.
However, as the payday's increase in MMA you will see more and more real HW enter the division.
What did Lesnar show in the fight? That he can sub a rag doll? If you think Carwin was anything but a rag doll on the ground in the 2nd then you're fooling yourself. He was even breathing hard in the post fight interview in the ring.
That it takes more than 1 clean Carwin shot to knock him out? Nobody said Brock had a glass chin.
btw, I don't think he fight should have been stopped. The ref did an excellent job. Imo, he should get a bonus too because another ref would've stopped that fight and in turn the better fighter (on that day) would not have won. I said that if Carwin picked his shots better and got 2-3 more clean ones in then it would've been stopped for sure (prob as a result of KO though).
In short:
1. Brock's a wrestler, first and foremost. And he does it pretty well. It's the one MMA skill that, if you're world class, will always give you and advantage regardless of the skillset of your opponent because you control where the fight will take place. That is completely unlike BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai, karate, Judo, etc. We marvel at how the sport has evolved and how well-rounded the sport has become, but the MMA landscape is still littered with a lot of guys that are only really good at one thing. And A LOT of guys out there that are only good at one thing are good at wrestling.
2. Brock's speed, athleticism and cardiovascular endurance makes him the exact opposite of "mediocre". He's a physical freak. Wrestling + the physical advantage Brock has over his opponents gives him a clear advantage.
It's MMA. There's no real perfect "mixture" of skills you need to have to win because there's just too much to try to be good at. But if you have a clear cut advantage in one area that you can't gameplan to stop (meaning his athletic advantage and size), you're going to win most of the time.
What's more important? Being well-rounded and multi-dimensional, or getting the W?
- Jul 24, 2007
- 5,485
- 14
I don't disagree with what you said. My point is that what the fight showed was that Lesnar could be beat and it wouldn't take a an exceptionally great fighter to do it.Originally Posted by Bastitch
I wrote out a 3 paragraph response to this that was erased when I somehow pressed "Back", and I'm too lazy to write it all out again.Originally Posted by wawaweewa
Yes, I was referring to Lesnar.
When you have absolutely no Stand-up game then what can you be but mediocre in today's MMA world? Yes, Lesnar is a beast on the ground (although I would've liked to see how he worked another 260 lb+ who wasn't gassed) but his stand up is atrocious. Did you see how he was literally running away with his back toward Carwin?
Second of all, you (and others) act as if Carwin has great stand up. Carwin doesn't have great stand up skills. He does punch like a mule kicks though. If Carwin could throw even decent knees that fight would be over 2 min into the first.
It turned out that Carwin was his own biggest enemy in that fight. He started wailing on Lesnar (not landing good punches) because he was looking for a ref stoppage. He either should've picked his shots better or just stood up. Of course this is "Monday morning quarterbacking" but Carwin shot himself in the foot with that he did when he had Lesnar down.
The only thing this fight proved was that a one dimensional fighter (Carwin is even more one dimensional than Brock) is good enough to be the Champion in the HW division. Why? Because there are few real HW out there. The 230lb'ers have a huge disadvantage against the 250+'s.
However, as the payday's increase in MMA you will see more and more real HW enter the division.
What did Lesnar show in the fight? That he can sub a rag doll? If you think Carwin was anything but a rag doll on the ground in the 2nd then you're fooling yourself. He was even breathing hard in the post fight interview in the ring.
That it takes more than 1 clean Carwin shot to knock him out? Nobody said Brock had a glass chin.
btw, I don't think he fight should have been stopped. The ref did an excellent job. Imo, he should get a bonus too because another ref would've stopped that fight and in turn the better fighter (on that day) would not have won. I said that if Carwin picked his shots better and got 2-3 more clean ones in then it would've been stopped for sure (prob as a result of KO though).
In short:
1. Brock's a wrestler, first and foremost. And he does it pretty well. It's the one MMA skill that, if you're world class, will always give you and advantage regardless of the skillset of your opponent because you control where the fight will take place. That is completely unlike BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai, karate, Judo, etc. We marvel at how the sport has evolved and how well-rounded the sport has become, but the MMA landscape is still littered with a lot of guys that are only really good at one thing. And A LOT of guys out there that are only good at one thing are good at wrestling.
2. Brock's speed, athleticism and cardiovascular endurance makes him the exact opposite of "mediocre". He's a physical freak. Wrestling + the physical advantage Brock has over his opponents gives him a clear advantage.
It's MMA. There's no real perfect "mixture" of skills you need to have to win because there's just too much to try to be good at. But if you have a clear cut advantage in one area that you can't gameplan to stop (meaning his athletic advantage and size), you're going to win most of the time.
What's more important? Being well-rounded and multi-dimensional, or getting the W?
Like I said before. Carwin hits exceptionally hard but that doesn't mean he has a great stand up game. He doesn't. If Brock looked even halfway decent in the stand up with him then I would give Brock a lot more credit. He looked absolutely atrocious. Maybe that was a fluke and he was giving Carwin too much respect? I can't say.
What should be clear now is that 250+ lb'ers fighting 230lb'ers are at a huge advantage simply because of weight. I realize there aren't enough true
HW;s in the sport but there should be 2 separate divisions. The solution is easy. Raise the pay at the HW level and soon enough you'll find some gems.
You'll waste some big paychecks on bums but that would be just the cost of improving the division.
- Jan 30, 2006
- 9,932
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:
{ for people on other forums saying carwin didnt gas,
I have to give credit for brock for coming back and showing some heart. But to act like he didnt get handled in the first round and ran away isnt hating.
He showed that he isnt this unstoppable force that he thinks he is. His striking is not as good as some people thought. Some people even say hes a better version of bob sapp
.
He def surprise me with the choke, i thought he was going to mount carwin and gnp to a W.
I think the cain fight will be better, cain def has a better gas tank, heavy hands and good wrestling.
I have to give credit for brock for coming back and showing some heart. But to act like he didnt get handled in the first round and ran away isnt hating.
He showed that he isnt this unstoppable force that he thinks he is. His striking is not as good as some people thought. Some people even say hes a better version of bob sapp
He def surprise me with the choke, i thought he was going to mount carwin and gnp to a W.
I think the cain fight will be better, cain def has a better gas tank, heavy hands and good wrestling.
- Jun 16, 2005
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Lesnar won me over last night. Unlike Chris Brown, his emotions taking over were actually genuine
Truthfully though, he fought like a champion, was tested for the first time and persevered. I'd like to see someone who's as physically equal to him fight him and right now the only guy I can think of is Bobby Lashley, another former WWE guy who's also got a nice background in wrestling.
If Lashley can get the proper striking/ground defense training, I honestly think he'd have the best chance to not only having a fight with Brock that lasts longer than 6 minutes, but also possibly beating him.
Truthfully though, he fought like a champion, was tested for the first time and persevered. I'd like to see someone who's as physically equal to him fight him and right now the only guy I can think of is Bobby Lashley, another former WWE guy who's also got a nice background in wrestling.
If Lashley can get the proper striking/ground defense training, I honestly think he'd have the best chance to not only having a fight with Brock that lasts longer than 6 minutes, but also possibly beating him.
- Sep 14, 2009
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Originally Posted by doyung9
Lesnar won me over last night. Unlike Chris Brown, his emotions taking over were actually genuine
Truthfully though, he fought like a champion, was tested for the first time and persevered. I'd like to see someone who's as physically equal to him fight him and right now the only guy I can think of is Bobby Lashley, another former WWE guy who's also got a nice background in wrestling.
If Lashley can get the proper striking/ground defense training, I honestly think he'd have the best chance to not only having a fight with Brock that lasts longer than 6 minutes, but also possibly beating him.
Put Shane/Brock in there 6 more times and I wouldn't be surprised to see Shane win in a 7 game series.
Shane is not really that far below from Brock after last night.
Brock still hasn't fought Cain or Dos
Lashley? What is wrong with people?
- Jul 11, 2002
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man, i dont like brock, but he proved a lot yesterday...props to him
- Apr 25, 2005
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I think calling Brock a "mediocre" fighter because of his stand up is like calling Anderson Silva a "mediocre" fighter because of his ground game. Yeah, Brock was getting destroyed trying to stand with Carwin, but so did Mir and Gonzaga. And both of them have above average stand up game.
- Sep 14, 2009
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Except Anderson's ground game is more than exceptional.
Brock's stand up is shoddy.
But I agree I won't call Brock a mediocre fighter, yet he's still very beatable. The HW division is too good for anyone to be considered that much better than the other.
- Apr 25, 2005
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Okay, I admit that was a bad example. The point that I was trying to make was that you can't really call Brock's stand up terrible because even dudes with good stand up have gotten crapped on by Carwin.
And I dunno if you can call Spiders ground game "more than" exceptional. Who has he really had to do work off his back against? The only person I can think of is Hendo, and Hendo clearly won that first round.
- Jun 6, 2007
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Finally an entertaining UFC card from start to finish. Now I'm hyped up to see Cain vs Lesnar.
- Nov 2, 2000
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Cain Velasquez will be overmatched against Brock Lesnar. Velsaquez has enjoyed a stength advantage over each of his 8 previous opponents. He will be at a considerable strength disadvanatge against Lesnar.
Junior Dos Santos, Fedor Emelianenko, and a juiced up Alistair Overeem are all much more interesting opponents for Lesnar. After Fedor's loss to Werdum, it seems unlikely he will fight in the UFC anytime soon because there's not nearly as much pressure on Dana White to sign him. To get Fedor in the Octagon, White would still likely have to give Fedor's management some type of co-promotion. Now that Fedor is no longer the consensus #1 heavyweight in MMA, there is no reason for the UFC to bend over backwards to get him in the Octagon. Hopefully, Dana White can sign Overeem. He's transformed himself into a beast of a heavyweight.
- Jan 30, 2006
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anderson submitted travis lutter who is a black belt off his back,
- Dec 27, 2005
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I don't know, Shane got to work on both his physical and mental conditioning and then, his ground game. He can tell his heart dropped when he couldn't finish Brock, his focus was gone, and fatigue set in. Once Brock took him down, it was a wrap.Originally Posted by ex carrabba fan
Originally Posted by doyung9
Lesnar won me over last night. Unlike Chris Brown, his emotions taking over were actually genuine
Truthfully though, he fought like a champion, was tested for the first time and persevered. I'd like to see someone who's as physically equal to him fight him and right now the only guy I can think of is Bobby Lashley, another former WWE guy who's also got a nice background in wrestling.
If Lashley can get the proper striking/ground defense training, I honestly think he'd have the best chance to not only having a fight with Brock that lasts longer than 6 minutes, but also possibly beating him.at Lashley having the best chance
Put Shane/Brock in there 6 more times and I wouldn't be surprised to see Shane win in a 7 game series.
Shane is not really that far below from Brock after last night.
Brock still hasn't fought Cain or Dos
Lashley? What is wrong with people?
