OFFICIAL NBA 2017-2018 Off-Season Thread

[100027]

how do we define more impressive? i found it more impressive when he was putting up 30 a night in OKC because the task was more difficult, he's still great in his role now but the level of difficulty was higher

that's why i stand on Westbrooks season being better than Harden's last year because it was a bit more difficult for Russ, both had phenominal seasons, However James having a system catered to him AND being paired with Teammates who exceled around his game just wasn't as impressive as Russ doing what he did despite his teammates being counterproductive towards his strengths

This year will probably the best Russ we'll see, they can Currently set out a lineup where he can have four shooters around him while he attacks & he should be more dangerous than ever

I don't agree that it was more difficult for him at all, I believe his teammates and coaches were enabling him to get those stats (there are many, many plays where Adams and Kanter intentionally boxed out to allow Russ to get the rebound) and he had the freedom to chase those stats even when it was to the detriment of the team.

He was in almost the perfect stat chasing scenario. You couldn't get away with that with PG and Melo on your team because they wouldn't be willing to sacrifice their own stats to him to that extent.

 

[Vincent Van Goat]

Post gsw eragoing to be worth the gsw 4 peat

Plus if they don't 4 peat it's like a bonus

Win win

So much incoming talent and young pro talent already developing. Not even worried about the next three years, it'll be amazing watching teams evolve

 

[rbk93]

Any good player can average more stats if they have the ball more simply as a result of volume.

Last year Westbrook had the highest usage rate of all time. He also had very impressive statistics. It's great that he was able to get those stats with the highest usage rate of all time, but again he had the highest usage rate of all time.

I'm sure many players in this league would benefit statistically if they had the highest usage rate of all time and just played purely in regards to their own stats rather than winning games.

Westbrook is a top 10 player of course, but he's not the best player simply because he had a higher usage rate than everyone else.

That didn't answer my question. Give me an example of a player who averages "big stats" without ball domination.

 

[100027]

That didn't answer my question. Give me an example of a player who averages "big stats" without ball domination.

? Your question was "Elaborate". Do you have a more specific question?

I didn't say that you can average big stats without dominating the ball to some extent, I said that it's a scale and Westbrook had the highest usage rate of all time.

 

[rbk93]

that's why i stand on Westbrooks season being better than Harden's last year because it was a bit more difficult for Russ, both had phenominal seasons, However James having a system catered to him AND being paired with Teammates who exceled around his game just wasn't as impressive as Russ doing what he did despite his teammates being counterproductive towards his strengths

Reality is the teams both catered to each player. Just compare the perception between Dwight and Durant.

 

[100027]

If you want an extremely simplistic example (and I'm not saying this is a good methodology, but it provides some perspective:

"What Other Stars Would Average With Westbrook’s Usage Rate"

Russell Westbrook: 31.7ppg, 11rpg, 10.4apg, 5.6tov, 42fg% usage 42%
LeBron James: 37ppg, 8.2rpg, 12.4apg, 6tov, 54fg% original usage 29.7%
Steph Curry: 35ppg, 4.5rpg, 9apg, 4tov, 46fg% original usage 29.5%
Kevin Durant: 38ppg, 8.2rpg, 7.2apg, 2.87tov, 44fg% original usage 27.8%
James Harden: 36ppg, 8rpg, 14apg, 7tov, 44fg% original usage 34%
Isaiah Thomas: 35.7ppg, 2.7rpg, 7.5apg, 3.3tov, 46fg% original usage 34.4%
Kawhi Leonard: 35.7ppg, 6rpg, 4.6apg, 2.7tov, 49fg% original usage 31%

 

[trynafeelmink]

Any good player can average more stats if they have the ball more simply as a result of volume.

Last year Westbrook had the highest usage rate of all time. He also had very impressive statistics. It's great that he was able to get those stats with the highest usage rate of all time, but again he had the highest usage rate of all time.

I'm sure many players in this league would benefit statistically if they had the highest usage rate of all time and just played purely in regards to their own stats rather than winning games.

Westbrook is a top 10 player of course, but he's not the best player simply because he had a higher usage rate than everyone else.

Again please tell me what you would have preferred OKC as constructed last year to do in order to win more games. Do you honestly & truly believe that Westbrook holding back his usage rate & allowin Oladipo to try & create or letting Kanter work the post would have led to more victories. what was the option other than allowing WB that freedom?

also his usage rate being so high & teams knowing he was the only one they had to stop, along with the amount of games he closed making big play after big play in close games adds to the impressiveness of the task

 

[rbk93]

To me, you didn't answer the question. You're talking in circles.

 

[100027]

To me, you didn't answer the question. You're talking in circles.

Dude. What's your actual question? I can't read your mind.

Again please tell me what you would have preferred OKC as constructed last year to do in order to win more games. Do you honestly & truly believe that Westbrook holding back his usage rate & allowin Oladipo to try & create or letting Kanter work the post would have led to more victories. what was the option other than allowing WB that freedom?

also his usage rate being so high & teams knowing he was the only one they had to stop, along with the amount of games he closed making big play after big play in close games adds to the impressiveness of the task

I do actually believe that moving the ball around the offense more equitably would have benefitted the team, yes. And there is a constant pattern where when guys play selfishly their teammates look worse, and then we use that to give them an excuse for playing selfishly.

Whereas the complete reverse happened with Harden, where he made his teammates so much better that people actually use that as a reason to denigrate Harden.

To me that's just ridiculous, but people love their ball hog basketball.

 

[antidope]

 

[100027]

BTW if you don't think the narrative has been rewritten, the vegas over-under for Houston heading into last season was 41.5 and for OKC was 45.5.

But yes, everyone on the Thunder was complete trash and Houston was full of star talent.

 

[rbk93]

You said averaging bigger stats without dominating the ball is "more impressive", I want a direct example of what player that is.

 

[hardens beard]

To me, you didn't answer the question. You're talking in circles.

I guess you would have to define what dominating the ball is. To me usage doesn't always reflect ball dominance.

 

[100027]

You said averaging bigger stats without dominating the ball is "more impressive", I want a direct example of what player that is.

Dominating the ball relative to Westbrook. Is that really so hard for you to understand?

And the example would be every player who has ever averaged any type of impressive stats. Every player.

Jesus.

 

[rbk93]

To me usage doesn't always reflect ball dominance.

How doesn't it?

 

[trynafeelmink]

If you want an extremely simplistic example (and I'm not saying this is a good methodology, but it provides some perspective:

"What Other Stars Would Average With Westbrook’s Usage Rate"

Russell Westbrook: 31.7ppg, 11rpg, 10.4apg, 5.6tov, 42fg% usage 42%
LeBron James: 37ppg, 8.2rpg, 12.4apg, 6tov, 54fg% original usage 29.7%
Steph Curry: 35ppg, 4.5rpg, 9apg, 4tov, 46fg% original usage 29.5%
Kevin Durant: 38ppg, 8.2rpg, 7.2apg, 2.87tov, 44fg% original usage 27.8%
James Harden: 36ppg, 8rpg, 14apg, 7tov, 44fg% original usage 34%
Isaiah Thomas: 35.7ppg, 2.7rpg, 7.5apg, 3.3tov, 46fg% original usage 34.4%
Kawhi Leonard: 35.7ppg, 6rpg, 4.6apg, 2.7tov, 49fg% original usage 31%

I get what this is trying to do, but this doesn't account For what would happen if your teammates are legit BAD fits next to your game.... there isn't one person on this list who's team you can look at & say the pieces around them don't fit.

Also this doesn't account for the obvious fatigue and wear that having that kind of Usage would have on the Player

 

[rbk93]

Dominating the ball relative to Westbrook. Is that really so hard for you to understand?

And the example would be every player who has ever averaged any type of impressive stats. Every player.

Jesus.

So again, you're not answering the question...talking in circles.

 

[100027]

So again, you're not answering the question...talking in circles.

It's clear you lack a basic level of comprehension. I'm sorry.

I'm going to humor you one more time. LeBron James averaged 27, 8, and 9 in 07-08 with a 31% usage rate.

Now that I have "answered your question" will you continue to ignore everything else I said, or are you just unable to think conceptually past that point?

 

[hardens beard]

How doesn't it?

Usage is defined by how the possession ends. So if a player scores, gets fouled, has a TO or misses the shot.

Let's use Rondo for example. He routinely pounded the ball in an effort to look for an assist but his usage was never high because he didn't end the possession.

 

[addict4sneakers]

How doesn't it?

Joel Embiid

 

[100027]

Usage is defined by how the possession ends. So if a player scores, gets fouled, has a TO or misses the shot.

Let's use Rondo for example. He routinely pounded the ball in an effort to look for an assist but his usage was never high because he didn't end the possession.

That's a fairly niche example though, Rondo is an extreme outlier for that.

 

[100027]

James Harden had a 28% usage rate last year and averaged 29, 11, and 8. Obviously you already know this, but I will go through the motions for you nonetheless.

 

[wavycrocket]

You said averaging bigger stats without dominating the ball is "more impressive", I want a direct example of what player that is.

Steph Curry. Kawhi Leonard. Kevin Durant

 

[trynafeelmink]

Dude. What's your actual question? I can't read your mind.



I do actually believe that moving the ball around the offense more equitably would have benefitted the team, yes. And there is a constant pattern where when guys play selfishly their teammates look worse, and then we use that to give them an excuse for playing selfishly.

Whereas the complete reverse happened with Harden, where he made his teammates so much better that people actually use that as a reason to denigrate Harden.

To me that's just ridiculous, but people love their ball hog basketball.

For the last time his teammates that he made "better" put up the same #'s they did w/o him in other situations....... Also why are we acting as if Harden didn't have the ball in his hand the Majority of the game also along with playing an extra 148 minutes on the court. the only difference between the two last season was that Russ team did help him to grab an extra board here & their and instead of Kicking the ball out to Shooters, Russ was kicking it out to roberson, Gibson, & Sabonis

 

[atransta]

Any good player can average more stats if they have the ball more simply as a result of volume.

Last year Westbrook had the highest usage rate of all time. He also had very impressive statistics. It's great that he was able to get those stats with the highest usage rate of all time, but again he had the highest usage rate of all time.

I'm sure many players in this league would benefit statistically if they had the highest usage rate of all time and just played purely in regards to their own stats rather than winning games.

Westbrook is a top 10 player of course, but he's not the best player simply because he had a higher usage rate than everyone else.

I was really impressed by Russ's stamina to maintain that high usage throughout the year.