***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[whywesteppin]

Am I the only one watching the trial?

Dems coming with the receipts today.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah I think the bigness is pretty important.

easy to dismiss say success in vermont or oregon, as Sui generis, the result of being small a racially homogenous states




if having the progressive in charge does not work at the scale of california why would it work at the scale of the entire country.

-Yeah I agree on bigness matters, but California doesn't represent the whole of left-wing governance in the US and there are counterexamples.

Also: Washington, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Virginia now. Whose are much more populous and more diverse states than Oregon and Vermont. Those should be easily dismissed as well?

Also again, the marginal vote in California is not a progressive, most Dems in the state government are probably not on the leftmost side of the left-wing distribution. I mean Klein used the city where that might be true to make a call for the entire state.

-Is the last line about voter perception or reality? Because in reality that the answer is easy, running California is different than running the US. In every way that is important.

If we are talking about voters, then won't they also consider the failings of right-wing governance as well?

 

[TooOlfForThisIsh]

So basically, Progressivism doesn't work in California because Californians are not actually progressive and so it hasn't really been tried. You can have all the signs in the world in your front yard, but if you push back on mixed income housing development in you hood, than your NIMBY *** is not progressive.

Someone should point Ezra to Paul Samuelson's not-quite-so-recent theory on revealed vs. expressed preferences.

Clickbait headlines that contradict the natural conclusions of an article are not super helpful.

 

[blastercombo]

Am I the only one watching the trial?

I can’t watch much more. Really is an open and shut case that will still be rejected by the GOP.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

-Yeah I agree on bigness matters, but California doesn't represent the whole of left-wing governance in the US and there are counterexamples.

Also: Washington, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Virginia now. Whose are much more populous and diverse states. Those should be easily dismissed as well?

Also again, the marginal vote in California is not a progressive, most Dems in the state government are probably not on the leftmost side of the left-wing distribution. I mean Klein used the city where that might be true to make a call for the entire state.

-Is the last line about voter perception or reality? Because in reality that the answer is easy, running California is different than running the US. In every way that is important.

-the marginal vote in california is certainly to the left of those states.
-two of which have wildly popular republican governors
- and washington is limited to a degree with no personal income tax.

there way more limits how far left those states can be policy wise.


imo fixating on california makes sense.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The thing is, there is no unified "they" in California.

It is failures are not caused by universal inaction. As in progressive (progressives are not even in the majority in Cali, the left is diverse in the state) just choosing to do nothing.

It is failure coordination. Basically, some want reforms, others use their veto powers to stop it. Cali also has problems structurally that are much bigger and harder to solve (like the tax code and the fact the state catches on fire every damn year now)

So **** is just compounding on one another.

sure yeah, there are structural factors for everything.

but I think you are underestimating the amount of

progressive voters,
progressive institutions,
and allegedly progressive politicians

that are just reflexively NIMBY.

They won't call it that. they will frame it as "housing justice."
or as some kind of cultural preservationism
or some leftist anti-capitalism opposition to developers.
or some other bs

I see the same thing in Toronto.


they all pretend to be pro housing but if you really press people,
the average progressive functionally is opposed to housing.




at a certain point when does a policy outcome become a choice?
at what point is it revealed preference?

 

[Fozz]

don't forget Reagonomics, aka trickle down BS tax cuts for the rich

I remember being taught this in my Econ/Political Science class. Thought it was trash then, still think it was trash now.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Despite the structural factors California has managed to do a ton on climate

and very little on say housing, and school segregation.




I think it's because they want to do stuff about the former,
and they don't want to do anything about the latter.

 

[RustyShackleford]

-the marginal vote in california is certainly to the left of those states.
-two of which have wildly popular republican governors
- and washington is limited to a degree with no personal income tax.

there way more limits how far left those states can be policy wise.


imo fixating on california makes sense.

-Please show me evidence of the marginal vote in Cali is left of these states. I seriously doubt this. I think you are conflating median with marginal. Yes I would agree that the median might be to the left, but I don't know about the marginal

-The two states with wildly popular Republican governors also have state legislators with veto-proof majorities. Just this week Democrats in Maryland overrode a veto to extend commenter train service into Virginia. Hogan has also been sabotaging transit projects in the state.

So if voters electing moderate Republicans that extremely different than what the National Republican party has to offer means something the fact that the voters also gave Dems the power to override their vetos should mean something as well.

-What are these limits? You mention Washington having no property tax. California can't even tax their state in an efficient way because of conservatives and the Prop 13 ********. That wreck havoc on California.

I get taking a special interest in Cali makes sense because of it size. But handwaving every counter-example of positive left win governance, ignoring other systems at play, and not even including critiques of right-wing governance, seem like a reach to me.

California needs to do better, but its failings are not some general examples of progressivism and its failings. That just seems to me like adopting a right-wing framing of the discussion

 

[RustyShackleford]

sure yeah, there are structural factors for everything.

but I think you are underestimating the amount of

progressive voters,
progressive institutions,
and allegedly progressive politicians

that are just reflexively NIMBY.

They won't call it that. they will frame it as "housing justice."
or as some kind of cultural preservationism
or some leftist anti-capitalism opposition to developers.
or some other bs

I see the same thing in Toronto.


they all pretend to be pro housing but if you really press people,
the average progressive functionally is opposed to housing.




at a certain point when does a policy outcome become a choice?
at what point is it revealed preference?

I don't think that I am. I said this...

The thing is, there is no unified "they" in California.

It is failures are not caused by universal inaction. As in progressive (progressives are not even in the majority in Cali, the left is diverse in the state) just choosing to do nothing.

It is failure coordination. Basically, some want reforms, others use their veto powers to stop it. Cali also has problems structurally that are much bigger and harder to solve (like the tax code and the fact the state catches on fire every damn year now)

So **** is just compounding on one another.

I have said routinely in there that NIMBYISM is a problem that is a problem that infest the entire political spectrum, I have never let progressives off the hook for it.

The thing is, there are progressive YIMBYS in Cali, there are progressive housing advocates, tons of progressive that would like multifamily housing to proliferate through the state, **** the zoning laws.

it is just that there is too much veto power in the state. Like there is every damn where, and that is especially troublesome when it comes to housing. Often times it is one progressive group at odds with another.

I am saying you make it out to be like there is some coordinated effort and consensus among progressive in the state to do nothing. And that is not the case.

 

[gry60]

@ cspan cutting off the video because of "language"

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I don't think that I am. I said this...



I have said routinely in there that NIMBYISM is a problem that is a problem that infest the entire political spectrum, I have never let progressives off the hook for it.

The thing is, there are progressive YIMBYS in Cali, there are progressive housing advocates, tons of progressive that would like multifamily housing to proliferate through the state, **** the zoning laws.

it is just that there is too much veto power in the state. Like there is every damn where, and that is especially troublesome when it comes to housing. Often times it is one progressive group at odds with another.

I am saying you make it out to be like there is some coordinated effort and consensus among progressive in the state to do nothing. And that is not the case.

fair enough.


as far as coordination.

i don't think there is a coordinated effort. I think many progressive voters, institutions, and politicians.
independently don't want to build more housing.

and they work independently to ensure it doesn't happen.

 

[RustyShackleford]

sure yeah, there are structural factors for everything.

but I think you are underestimating the amount of

progressive voters,
progressive institutions,
and allegedly progressive politicians

that are just reflexively NIMBY.

They won't call it that. they will frame it as "housing justice."
or as some kind of cultural preservationism
or some leftist anti-capitalism opposition to developers.
or some other bs

I see the same thing in Toronto.


they all pretend to be pro housing but if you really press people,
the average progressive functionally is opposed to housing.




at a certain point when does a policy outcome become a choice?
at what point is it revealed preference?

Sidenote, I legit thought of nawghtyhare when I saw this post structure

I thought for a second you were gonna ask me if I was black, call me a bum, and then tell me to be blessed, all in one stanza

 

[gry60]

Just wondering, did they not present Marco Rubio's words after Bidens campaign bus was assaulted? They need to name names.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

-Please show me evidence of the marginal vote in Cali is left of these states. I seriously doubt this. I think you are conflating median with marginal. Yes I would agree that the median might be to the left, but I don't know about the marginal

-The two states with wildly popular Republican governors also have state legislators with veto-proof majorities. Just this week Democrats in Maryland overrode a veto to extend commenter train service into Virginia. Hogan has also been sabotaging transit projects in the state.

So if voters electing moderate Republicans that extremely different than what the National Republican party has to offer means something the fact that the voters also gave Dems the power to override their vetos should mean something as well.

-What are these limits? You mention Washington having no property tax. California can't even tax their state in an efficient way because of conservatives and the Prop 13 bull****. That wreck havoc on California.

I get taking a special interest in Cali makes sense because of it size. But handwaving every counter-example of positive left win governance, ignoring other systems at play, and not even including critiques of right-wing governance, seem like a reach to me.

California needs to do better, but its failings are not some general examples of progressivism and its failings. That just seems to me like adopting a right-wing framing of the discussion

i take your point about marginal vs median.

if you had to rank, of the large states you mentioned where do you think progressives have the most influence over policy?

 

[RustyShackleford]

fair enough.


as far as coordination.

i don't think there is a coordinated effort. I think many progressive voters, institutions, and politicians.
independently don't want to build more housing.

and they work independently to ensure it doesn't happen.

Some don't, probably sure

But I think the major issue is that most do think they do, but they have really stupid ideas about how the housing supply needs to increase. And they only want it to happen on their own narrow terms. Even worse, they think they are doing good when they do such things

Forever vetoing development projects because of some god damn reason

So racist NIMBYISM stop development in the burbs, and misguided liberals do it in cities

And everyone gets ******

 

[deuce king]

A video for you and about you dwalk31 .

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Some don't, probably sure

But I think the major issue is that most do think they do, but they have really stupid ideas about how the housing supply needs to increase. And they only want it to happen on their own narrow terms. Even worse, they think they are doing good when they do such things

Forever vetoing development projects because of some god damn reason

So racist NIMBYISM stop development in the burbs, and misguided liberals do it in cities

And everyone gets ****ed

you know yah most of them have some impossible to reach standard for when they think housing is good.


but im actually constantly surprised by the amount of "people are bad" talk that comes from progressives.
i think it comes from a kind of 60's hippie environmentalism.

argue with an old toronto leftist and they basically take the position that more people" is bad.

 

[heatpinoyboy]

I grew up in the Bay and it's not as progressive as a lot people make it seem. We failed to protect gig workers, failed to start change on archaic property taxes, and failed to uplift affirmative action. California is highly conservative in parts of northern california, central california, and inland areas.

I would bargain that it's the "progressive-ness" of California that is overrated. I live in the Berkeley area and live ~30 minutes away from boot party fanatics.

 

[gry60]

 

[mplsdunk]

Well according to nt any state that votes blue is amazing and any state that votes red is a waste land.

it’s the same **** here. Mn votes blue but it’s not progressive. We’ll never have legal green and they just let the cops run around and kill everyone and our government is so anti small business it’s not even funny.

they just mask it all with a couple “everyone is welcome here” signs in their yard. When it comes time to protest “get out of the freeway thugs!”

 

[IATT]

 

[Belgium]

Has to happen sooner or later I suppose. I report the payments I receive through Bitcoin but I doubt I'd have much trouble laundering it in various ways if I wanted to. I withdrew somewhere around €2k cash from a Bitcoin ATM in Ghent once and it required literally zero personal information. None whatsoever. I had to verify my wallet but the one I used didn't contain any personal information. No ID, no name, no phone, no address, nothing. I don't know if those ATMs even have an alert system like normal ATMs/banks have if you attempt to withdraw over €5k.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-crypto-currencies-crime-idUSKBN2AB1UD
Just 270 crypto addresses laundered $1.3 billion in dirty funds last year, research shows
Criminals are using a small group of cryptocurrency brokers and services to launder hundreds of millions of dollars of dirty virtual money, research shared with Reuters showed on Thursday.

 

[gry60]

Well according to nt any state that votes blue is amazing and any state that votes red is a waste land.

it’s the same **** here. Mn votes blue but it’s not progressive. We’ll never have legal green and they just let the cops run around and kill everyone and our government is so anti small business it’s not even funny.

they just mask it all with a couple “everyone is welcome here” signs in their yard. When it comes time to protest “get out of the freeway thugs!”

Just look at how some of those cities are treating teachers, forcing them to go back to in-person schooling by using the CDC's latest guidance, when they damn well know the HVAC systems of poorly funded public schools probably don't have adequate filters to protect teachers and kids from covid.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Has to happen sooner or later I suppose. I report the payments I receive through Bitcoin but I doubt I'd have much trouble laundering it in various ways if I wanted to. I withdrew somewhere around €2k cash from a Bitcoin ATM in Ghent once and it required literally zero personal information. None whatsoever. I had to verify my wallet but the one I used didn't contain any personal information. No ID, no name, no phone, no address, nothing.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-crypto-currencies-crime-idUSKBN2AB1UD
Just 270 crypto addresses laundered $1.3 billion in dirty funds last year, research shows
Criminals are using a small group of cryptocurrency brokers and services to launder hundreds of millions of dollars of dirty virtual money, research shared with Reuters showed on Thursday.

I honestly think there should be a carbon tax on as many bitcoin transactions as possible

It takes a ridiculous amount of energy to mine that funny money