***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RustyShackleford]

you can observe what ever you want, I think the observations are stupid.
it's just a way to delegitimize dissent.

you spend days go on and on about conservatives,
but I don't not sit here claiming there is some secret reactionary animus towards conservatives.

that i have secret insight via my ethernet connection.

Dude, do whatever the **** you want

Say whatever you want to me

And I will snap back and put up with your whining about it for weeks, if not years

Like I said, I'm not the only person that notices how you move. Multiple people in multiple threads do

But I guess that is just the midwit opinion

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Dude, do whatever the **** you want

Say whatever you want to me

And I will snap back and put up with your whining about it for weeks, if not years

Like I said, I'm not the only person that notices how you move. Multiple people in multiple threads do

But I guess that is just the midwit opinion

"my move"

yes when people say stupid untrue things about me I will point that is stupid and untrue.
please forgive me I beg you.

but I guess everyone says it so it must be true, but hey what do I know?
im but a simple contrarian.

 

[RustyShackleford]

and how do you explain Canada, UK, Sweden also producing similarly bad outcomes.

I can totally agree USA health care system adds a particular kind of fuel to the fire.


of course this is true. but there is a deeper rot withing progressive institutions that allows incoherent ideologies to bloom.

dismiss it as culture war none sense if you want, I think it matters.

So your examples include Sweden, which after some time changed its policy, and the UK where the Tories have controlled the NHS since 2010.

You describe progressives' ideas within institutions are a deeper withering rot, but how dare someone call you reactionary when it comes to progressives

I don't dismiss taking issue with progressive ideas as culture war nonsense

I am describing how YOU do it on NT a lot of the time as culture war nonsense

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So your examples include Sweden, which after some time changed its policy, and the UK where the Tories have controlled the NHS since 2010.

You describe progressives' ideas within institutions are a deeper withering rot, but how dare someone call you reactionary when it comes to progressives

I don't dismiss taking issue with progressive ideas as culture war nonsense

I am describing how YOU do it on NT a lot of the time as culture war nonsense

you know Rusty ive come to the conclusions that you simply have an irrational hatred heterodox anti cancel cultures which you unfairly lump me into

and our disagreements don't stem from your authentic consideration of the facts at hand
but actually from a irrational reactionary deep seated hatred, which causes you to reflexively defend progressives and go on and on about conservatives.


if only you could rid your self of this character flaw, you can finally take Joe Manchin into your heart as your lord and savoir.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So your examples include Sweden, which after some time changed its policy, and the UK where the Tories have controlled the NHS since 2010.

You describe progressives' ideas within institutions are a deeper withering rot,

so after some time of giving children and experimental drug regimen with limited evidentiary basis, and amputating body part in hopes of curing mental health issues.
they have now changed their policy...wow I feel so comforted about progressive institutions.

you think the people who ran the tavistock gender clinic were on the political right?
id find that pretty shocking.

and then you ignore canada.


like I already said I think the worm has turned on this stuff and progressives are slowly getting right on this topic.
unfortunately jon Stewart is late

 

[RustyShackleford]

you know Rusty ive come to the conclusions that you simply have an irrational hatred heterodox anti cancel cultures which you unfairly lump me into

and our disagreements don't stem from your authentic consideration of the facts at hand
but actually from a irrational reactionary deep seated hatred, which causes you to reflexively defend progressives and go on and on about conservatives.


if only you could rid your self of this character flaw, you can finally take Joe Manchin into your heart as your lord and savoir.

Did you think this tired piece of satire was supposed to upset me as much as you are right now?

I'm confused

I know you must have felt this was gonna be some heat when you were typing this joint out

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Did you think this tired piece of satire was supposed to upset me as much as you are right now?

I'm confused

I know you must have felt this was gonna be some heat when you were typing this joint out

its simply a a recitation of your thought process.
feel whatever you want about it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

"my move"

yes when people say stupid untrue things about me I will point that is stupid and untrue.
please forgive me I beg you.

but I guess everyone says it so it must be true, but hey what do I know?
im but a simple contrarian.

Dude, I just told you to do whatever you want

I said you can defend yourself from criticism

But I think there are some unique differences at how people come at me that they do you

The fact you lack a lot of self-awareness as to why people come at you as they do is funny to me though

But in fairness, people are much more upfront with why the have a problem with me

 

[RustyShackleford]

its simply a a recitation of your thought process.
feel whatever you want about it.

Cool

I don't give a ****

At least make it funny next time

 

[dacomeup]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/07/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

This was really interesting. Crazy that he did this 3 semesters in to law school as well. Political prodigy.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Dude, I just told you to do whatever you want

I said you can defend yourself from criticism

But I think there are some unique differences at how people come at me that they do you

The fact you lack a lot of self-awareness as to why people come at you as they do is funny to me though

But in fairness, people are much more upfront with why the have a problem with me

im perfectly aware. i simply think it is stupid.

people make all manner of criticism of me. I don't confront everyone.

 

[Sharpshoeter13]

Not the type of flex in the history of flexing

 

[Nike Jordan]

 

[RustyShackleford]

so after some time of giving children and experimental drug regimen with limited evidentiary basis, and amputating body part in hopes of curing mental health issues.
they have now changed their policy...wow I feel so comforted about progressive institutions.

you think the people who ran the tavistock gender clinic were on the political right?
id find that pretty shocking.

and then you ignore canada.

I made a macro comment regarding our (America) healthcare systems, and you responded by naming off other healthcare systems and accusing them of having a rot that affects their judgment

If there is some withering rot in the institutions, then it undercuts your point that one reversed course, and the other has been run by conservatives for years

I am saying the political right runs the NHS, that is it. The clinic was under them, so they are the ones that had the power to close them.

Do you know the political leanings of all the admins and doctors there? Because it seems like it wasn't closed down simply for their ideological leanings getting them in trouble...

England Overhauls Medical Care for Transgender Youth (Published 2022)

The National Health Service is closing England’s sole youth gender clinic, which had been criticized for long wait times and inadequate services.

www.nytimes.com

The closure followed an external review of the Tavistock clinic in London, which has served thousands of transgender patients since the 1990s. The review, which is ongoing, has raised several concerns, including about long wait times, insufficient mental health support and the surging number of young people seeking gender treatments.

Since you raised this data point, would you like to discuss the issues of underfunding socialized medical systems results in bad incentives and outcomes? Hmmm. Or was I just supposed to see this example and accept your "its the progressive fault" framing

Especially when this was the response from activists in the UK....

Transgender advocates in Britain welcomed the changes but emphasized that many questions still remained about how they would affect care for young people.

“We are optimistic, cautiously optimistic, about the news,” said Susie Green, chief executive of Mermaids, an advocacy group for transgender and gender-diverse youth. “There is a two-and-a-half-year waiting list to be seen for your first appointment. We’ve seen the distress caused to young people because of that.”

Yes, I ignored Canada because I am not up on the latest happening in Canadian health care services when it comes to gender-affirming care. You provided me with no specific examples, again the convo was taking place on a macro level.

But I was trying to undercut your argument here, and I felt 2/3 did the job sufficiently.

Sorry but was this was suppose to be some sort of gotcha?

like I already said I think the worm has turned on this stuff and progressives are slowly getting right on this topic.
unfortunately jon Stewart is late

So the coalition of people are self-correcting

It is almost like there is no consensus held by progressives, even though someone routinely acts like there is for the sake of his argument

 

[gry60]

you think the people who ran the tavistock gender clinic were on the political right?
id find that pretty shocking.

The framing of the story surrounding the causes of the clinic closure changes depending on whether you read BBC or National Review.

BBC:

Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust has been told to shut the clinic by spring after it was criticised in an independent review.
Instead, new regional centres will be set up to "ensure the holistic needs" of patients are fully met, the NHS said.
The trust said it supported plans for a new model due to a rise in referrals.
The changes will take place after an independent review, led by Dr Hilary Cass, said the Tavistock clinic needed to be transformed.

The Cass review was commissioned in September 2020 amid the rise in demand, long waiting times for assessments and "significant external scrutiny" around GIDS' approach and capacity, the NHS said.
In an interim report earlier this year, Dr Cass said:

• The service was struggling to deal with spiralling waiting lists
• It was not keeping "routine and consistent" data on its patients
• Health staff felt under pressure to adopt an "unquestioning affirmative approach"
• Once patients are identified as having gender-related distress, other healthcare issues they had, such as being neurodivergent, "can sometimes be overlooked"

She then suggested introducing local hubs, writing that the current provider model "is not a safe or viable long-term option".

But this is the framing of right-wing outlets (National Review):

The U.K. Turns Its Back on Transgender Ideology​

By the way, one thing that IS mentioned in the BBC article (and missing from the National Review editorial) is that some the Stonewall group (pro-LGBT) welcomed the decision to close the clinic, which supports the assertion that the issue had more to do with the process of transition with that particular center than the idea of transitioning itself.

A Stonewall spokesperson said: "The creation of new specialist regional centres in London and Manchester next year, with more to follow, will go some way to addressing the strain experienced by having just a single, centralised service."

 

[RustyShackleford]

im perfectly aware. i simply think it is stupid.

people make all manner of criticism of me. I don't confront everyone.

Yah, I disagree

 

[RustyShackleford]

The framing of the story surrounding the causes of the clinic closure changes depending on whether you read BBC or National Review.

BBC:



But this is the framing of right-wing outlets (National Review):


By the way, one thing that IS mentioned in the BBC article (and missing from the National Review editorial) is that some the Stonewall group (pro-LGBT) welcomed the decision to close the clinic, which supports the assertion that the issue had more to do with the process of transition with that particular center than the idea of transitioning itself.

This is one of the reasons I call dude reactionary

He acts like he is the only one taking the issue seriously, then throws out an example without context

 

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I made a macro comment regarding our (America) healthcare systems, and you responded by naming off other healthcare systems and accusing them of having a rot that affects their judgment

If there is some withering rot in the institutions, then it undercuts your point that one reversed course, and the other has been run by conservatives for years

again do you think that people run the day to day operations of the tavistock clinic are on the political right?

I think it's obvious aren't, even just by using educational attainment as a simple heuristic, they are going to be to the left of the population.
let alone administors and doctors of a gender clinic.

the fact that torries have been control of government to me is just a cope.
gender ideology is born progressive institutions, and the ability to ask question about it without being labeled a bigot is enforced by progressives.
regardless of the failure of conservatives governments to properly regulate it.

The closure followed an external review of the Tavistock clinic in London, which has served thousands of transgender patients since the 1990s. The review, which is ongoing, has raised several concerns, including about long wait times, insufficient mental health support and the surging number of young people seeking gender treatments.

Since you raised this data point, would you like to discuss the issues of underfunding socialized medical systems results in bad incentives and outcomes? Hmmm. Or was I just supposed to see this example and accept your "its the progressive fault" framing

the cass review is no longer ongoing, it was completed and the principle problem is not just the long wait times.
it also sites the lack of evidence supporting their treatment protocols, the lack of any effective data gathering to gauge the effectiveness
and the lack of investigation or mental health care of patients with co morbidites.

so group of medical professional engaged in a novel treatment protocol, with no strong evidence of efficacy
and the proceed to not collect and do rigorous followups, and not investigate various comorbidities
or the massive shifts in the demographics of people presenting with gender dysphoria.

now why do you think these people did this?

tbh "these doctors had ideological blind spots reinforced by in group homogeneity"
is a charitable and reasonable interpretation but Im certainly open to more nefarious ones.

this mistake is happening in private systems, in single payer systems in totally government run systems.
i just don't think you blame the unique systemic health care issues in each health care system when they are giving you similar result and problems.

So the coalition of people are self-correcting

It is almost like there is no consensus held by progressives, even though someone routinely acts like there is for the sake of his argument

if you think their isn't ideological valence to gender theory, i don't know what to say,.
i haven't met to many conservative in the the gender ideology space but maybe im missing it.

 

[1995]

 

[gry60]

The Problem With Herschel Walker and His Republican Enablers Is Not Their Hypocrisy

The Georgia Senate candidate’s travails have neatly illuminated the GOP’s ugly core.

newrepublic.com

But to read the mainstream media’s coverage of Walker’s gaffes and transgressions—his previously unidentified children from different partners, his spaced-out climate change commentary about “China’s bad air” taking over America’s “good air space,” a seemingly never-ending litany of resume-inflating lies—you’d think that everyone reporting these incidents imagines that the hypocrisy police are sure to arrive on the scene to make an arrest. What they’re missing is that the law of gravity is no longer in effect; the point of view that Senate candidates need to possess plainly evident core values or sturdy credentials to hold high office has been beaten into obsolescence by McConnell, who is the sole arbiter of who gets to run for Senate as a Republican.

For McConnell, the ideal Senate Republican possesses one quality: They are a warm body with enough cognitive acuity and physical dexterity needed to cast votes according to his demands. No further values or credentials are required. And for the most part, the votes those senators will cast only really reify an agenda he has already successfully enacted. For the past decade, as Beltway journalists have touted him as a “master tactician” by the way he’s leveraged arcane Senate rules to his own advantage or praised him, inexplicably, as a civil rights hero because he ultimately voted for an eminently qualified Black woman to serve as attorney general after months of delaying her confirmation, they’ve largely ignored his masterwork: a federal judiciary transformed by his blowtorch and pickax.

It’s increasingly clear that the morality-neutral media coverage of a political environment that’s been dominated by an amoral political party has wrought substantial collateral damage, engulfing our democracy and its key institutions in an existential crisis. As The Daily Beast’s Matt Fuller noted, about the dual attacks on the U.S. Capitol and democracy on January 6, 2021, “The Real Tragedy of January 6 is That It’s Still Not Over.” The national discourse on how that assault on democracy is still ongoing is, in general, not being pursued with the urgency it demands. To the extent that it does receive coverage, it mostly centers on the various insurgents who are currently being prosecuted by the Department of Justice.
That’s all to the good, but there’s a more critical matter that’s going uncovered. The rise of unqualified-to-serve politicians in Congress, such as Tommy Tuberville—who couldn’t beat Vanderbilt as head football coach at Auburn or name the three branches of government—or potentially Walker, if elected, is also a serious attack on democracy.

People who don’t believe in government are stacking that government with politicians, who at best, boast about not even having the slightest clue about the basics of their job or public policy, and who, at worst, think of public service as the most effective tool for grifting and trolling. Furthermore, this phenomenon has arrived at a moment in which the ability of the political press to provide a check on this slide into illiberalism has atrophied. For too many reporters clustered inside the Beltway, the emergence of comically unqualified candidates—or outright QAnon-pilled seditionists—is just one more interesting moment in American politics; the fuel for bemusement, rather than a clanging alarm.
Which brings us back to Herschel Walker. There is no imminently arriving “gotcha” moment, no matter how more lurid the news gets. Walker isn’t a “hypocrite” by any conventional definition—and neither are his fellow Republicans. Hypocrisy, you see, is entirely dependent on the existence of a preexisting core belief that one might violate. But Republicans have engineered a universe in which they receive qualified immunity from crimes of hypocrisy: They have inculcated their base with the belief that they are amid an ongoing culture war filled with spectral threats, up to and including anyone in the media who might arrive on the scene to offer, “Hey, perhaps Herschel Walker isn’t going to serve the public interest, based on what we know to be true about him.” Reporting that reflects what any objective observer could identify independently as “hypocrisy” is merely a bump in the road, a Twitter rage cycle to nowhere.
Earlier this week, inside-the-Beltway publication Politico
granted anonymity to a Republican operative to share his thoughts on how Republicans feel about Walker’s candidacy. What he said was as revealing as it was grotesque: “It’s not that we knew about this specific case, but he’s a wealthy, famous football player who is obviously spreading his seed.”
That one sentence gives away so many games at once, it could make Tuberville look like Knute Rockne: Republicans do not respect Walker, they hold racist views on who Black people are in this country, and they do not care about family values or abortion. “Seed” is a pretty dismissive way to characterize the “unborn” which Republicans pretend to prioritize over all else.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

The framing of the story surrounding the causes of the clinic closure changes depending on whether you read BBC or National Review.

BBC:



But this is the framing of right-wing outlets (National Review):


By the way, one thing that IS mentioned in the BBC article (and missing from the National Review editorial) is that some the Stonewall group (pro-LGBT) welcomed the decision to close the clinic, which supports the assertion that the issue had more to do with the process of transition with that particular center than the idea of transitioning itself.

Im telling you man it's BS, ive looked into forget liberal conservative look at the report.
its just a dodge to imply it was close principally because of long wait times.

they didn't have strong evidence for the treatment protocol they were using.
and they didn't do followups, they don't have good evidence on the long term impacts of the drugs they were using.

im sorry but pretending like this a wait time issue is a perfect example of a liberals obfuscating on this issue



the long wait times, might have been a problem, but that is a "I hate this food but the portions are too small"

 

[RustyShackleford]

again do you think that people run the day to day operations of the tavistock clinic are on the political right?

I think it's obvious aren't, even just by using educational attainment as a simple heuristic, they are going to be to the left of the population.
let alone administors of and doctors clinic.

the fact that torries have been control of government to me is just a cope.
gender ideology is born progressive institutions, and the ability to ask question about it without being labeled a bigot is enforced by progressives.
regardless of the failure of conservatives governments to properly regulate it.
the cass review is no longer ongoing, it was completed and the principle problem is not just the long wait times.
it also sites the lack of evidence supporting their treatment protocols, the lack of any effective data gathering to gauge the effectiveness
and the lack of investigation or mental health care of patients with co morbidites.

so group of medical professional engaged in a novel treatment protocol, with no strong evidence of efficacy
and the proceed to not collect and do rigorous followups, and not investigate various comorbidities
or the massive shifts in the demographics of people presenting with gender dysphoria.

now why do you think these people did this?

tbh "these doctors had ideological blind spots reinforced by in group homogeneity"
is a charitable and reasonable interpretation but Im certainly open to more nefarious ones.

this mistake is happening in private systems, in single payer systems in totally government run systems.
i just don't think you blame the unique systemic health care issues in each health care system when they are giving you similar result and problems.



if you think their isn't ideological valence to gender theory, i don't know what to say,.
i haven't met to many conservative in the the gender ideology space but maybe im missing it.

Yeah this is dumb.

I said the Torries run the NHS, which is true

You are coming is that I'm supposed to know the ideology of the people running the clinic. I don't, and neither do you. You don't know their internal motivations

With no evidence, you just guessing and we are just supposed to accept this guess as truth because it helps your argument? Classic Osh hypocrisy, doing something in an argument you would never accept from someone else.

You ignore the other issues with the clinic that have nothing to do with ideology

Torries' control of the NHS is a fact. Once again you have to dismiss it because it gets in the way of your flimsy point

The clinic opened in the 90s, so in the 90s it was captured by progressive politics too.

The activist welcomed the change too.

You are just running your mouth here, ignoring anything that gets in the way of your point

And getting upset when someone points that out

 

[RustyShackleford]

Im telling you man it's BS, ive looked into forget liberal conservative look at the report.
its just a dodge to imply it was close principally because of long wait times.

they didn't have strong evidence for the treatment protocol they were using.
and they didn't do followups, they don't have good evidence on the long term impacts of the drugs they were using.

im sorry but pretending like this a wait time issue is a perfect example of a liberals obfuscating on this issue



the long wait times, might have been a problem, but that is a "I hate this food but the portions are too small"

This post is beautiful.

When presented with something that gets in the way of your argument just say they are lying

But yeah, lets act like me suggesting you are reactionary on this topic was outta pocket

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Yeah this is dumb.

I said the Torries run the NHS, which is true

You are coming is that I'm supposed to know the ideology of the people running the clinic. I don't, and neither do you

With no evidence, you just guessing and we are just supposed to accept this guess as truth because it helps your argument? Classic Osh hypocrisy, doing something in an argument you would never accept from someone else.

You ignore the other issues with the clinic that have nothing to do with ideology

Torries' control of the NHS is a fact. Once again you have to dismiss it because it gets in the way of your flimsy point

The clinic opened in the 90s, so in the 90s it was captured by progressive politics too.

The activist welcomed the change too.

You are just running your mouth here, ignoring anything that gets in the way of your point

And getting upset when someone points that out

Okay so to be clear.

You believe there is no way of knowing the ideological valence of gender theory.
it could be progressive it could be conservative,
unless we read the minds of each gender clinicians, there no way of knowing what their thoughts on gender ideology are.

if you met a gender clinician, you would have no idea if there were conservative or progressive.

and concepts like gender identity, male/female assigned at birth. all these things that come from gender ideology.

that has zero or littel impact, on separate doctors, in different countries, all are making similar mistakes.



okay man.