***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[IATT]

 

[osh kosh bosh]

osh kosh bosh

Since you were right supposedly right about Monkeypox and Defund the police, are you gonna bring up our exchanges in those threads

-Like you being banned from the Monkeypox thread because you were upset public health official would not call out transmission among gay men/

You got baited my Lionblood, then flippant with everyone else, lost your cool, and started posting a white supremacist 4Chan meme to insult people's intelligence

Which led to you getting a thread ban

the monkeypox i agree, you weren't against me on that.

oh I certainly towards the was mocking people for taking self evidently silly positions, so you got me there. I think time vindicates me on that.

the defund the police tbh separating in my mind whose position was what is difficult as it was a while ago
so i don't want to misquote your position on that.


like I said we agree on most things, what do you think are disagreement rate is? it's like what 5% of issues, probabaly not even that much.
half are disagreements are over tactics not even the underlying point.

 

[sneeker]

as much as I don't like Ben as a Republican(?), I do agree with him with the discussion about gender/sex. there is no such thing for humans to have gender fluidity nor gender flexibility as anatomy defines us. we are not asexual beings like some life forms are. just because one thinks that a person feels/think to be the other gender spectrum doesn't make them as such. they are still what they are anatomically,culturally, politically, socially speaking. it is not obsolete but brings order as well. opening up a can of worms like gender fluidity is chaotic as there is no way of determining one is pretending to be as such. although I must say that we should improve our treatment of others with their sexuality behaviors, it doesn't mean that we have to change and set new norms just to please a non-existing issue just because a few wanted it to be so and so. just look at this one for example and say if there is nothing wrong with her.....

or this classic example of a "MAAM(?)"

 

[gry60]

Yah the context of debating male and female difference
Ben is claiming that gender theorist are the ones collapsing this distinction by refusing to acknowledge any difference between trans women and biological women.

which is true you see outlets like scientific America forwarding the idea that SEX, (not gender) but SEX is also a spectrum.

As Ben Shapiro acknowledged, intersex people exist. They're not quite X and they're not quite Y; they're both.

Where do they fit in Ben's binary mammal paradigm?

they are still what they are anatomically,

see my question above.

culturally, politically, socially speaking.

Yeah, that is highly dependent on the society.

That's the issue with making universal statements about sex, gender and the roles assigned to them: the moment you look outside your social construct, you start to notice a lot of **** that makes you question the justifications behind the way your own society is organized.

How many of y'all rock earrings, rings that are not wedding rings, braids, and dreadlocks? That's effeminate as **** where I'm from.

Mister Man, do know your way around a kitchen? That's a woman's job and place. A man never sets foot in the kitchen where I'm from. My SIL's husband is like that. Dude will go to bed with water in his stomach if his wife is not here to cook and feed him. I think it's ridiculous.

Not to mention that all this can change within a lifetime. A century ago, the genders assigned to pink and blue were not female and male.

So now what?

 

[RustyShackleford]

yah and I agree there are other factors but I said simply because the tories are in charge of the government it doesn't mean that it means that people on the ground who work at gender clinics are conservatives.
and you have there in black and white progressives activist groups were pressuring doctors to adopt these treatments. and it seemed to impact treatment.

I believe you mentioned something that happened in Scandavnia's government doing something then pulling back

So I mentioned the Tories because YOU brought up progressives being in government and in charge and causing bad outcomes. So I was pointing out that things got bad under conservative control

I get you to need to lie to yourself to make you feel superior, but I like I have told you before, people have memories

And there you have it in black and white something that supports my argument, but you need to ignore that to make this argument work

it's not fan fictions, it's right there in black and white.
and to assume that wouldn't happen in america a far less regulated more entrepreneurial health care system is crazy.

I am calling your categorization our exchange fan fiction

Not what happened at the clinic


And I didn't assume ****, MY ORGINAL POINT WAS THAT THE US SYSTEM'S INCENTIVES ON TREATMENT WOULD LEAD TO BAD OUTCOMES.
You clearly don't want to discuss things in an honest way

Which is one of my points

if you missed the story update I guess you missed it.
I actually don't make a habit of doing victory laps on things I was right about, but I can in the future if you would like.

This is a ******* lie

But do whatever you want famb

Knock yourself out

I am sure when people return that energy when you are wrong, or mock your behavior, you will take that in stride

 

[osh kosh bosh]

As Ben Shapiro acknowledged, intersex people exist. They're not quite X and they're not quite Y; they're both.

Where do they fit in Ben's binary mammal paradigm?

see now you're are doing exactly what ben was talking about turning sex into spectrum like gender.
there being tiny amount of people with genetic disorders of sexual development does not mean sex is now a spectrum.

it someone is born without legs it doesn't mean homo sapiens are not bipedal species rather they exist on s spectrum of bipedalism.
there are only two sex's. and there are people who are neither sex. there is no spectrum of sex.

That's the issue with making universal statements about sex, gender and the roles assigned to them: the moment you look outside your social construct, you start to notice a lot of **** that makes you question the justifications behind the way your own society is organized.

How many of y'all rock earrings, rings that are not wedding rings, braids, and dreadlocks? That's effeminate as **** where I'm from.

Mister Man, do know your way around a kitchen? That's a woman's job and place. A man never sets foot in the kitchen where I'm from. My SIL's husband is like that. Dude will go to bed with water in his stomach if his wife is not here to cook and feed him. I think it's ridiculous.

Not to mention that all this can change within a lifetime. A century ago, the genders assigned to pink and blue were not female and male.

So now what?

again none of this is at dispute, there various practices that coded culturally as feminine and masculine that exist on a spectrum.
this is obviously true,

the question is should we use that to segregate sports, or prisons, or locker rooms.

which is a political question not scientific. hence why NDT doesn't take a strong position on it.

 

[RustyShackleford]

the monkeypox i agree, you weren't against me on that.

oh I certainly towards the was mocking people for taking self evidently silly positions, so you got me there. I think time vindicates me on that.

the defund the police tbh separating in my mind whose position was what is difficult as it was a while ago
so i don't want to misquote your position on that.


like I said we agree on most things, what do you think are disagreement rate is? it's like what 5% of issues, probabaly not even that much.
half are disagreements are over tactics not even the underlying point.

So your data points on me running and hiding are

-Me not doing it
-You can't remember what my argument was in the original discussion
-You not even asking me for new information regarding a specific aspect of the previous discussion
-And leaving out a bunch of context about a previous discussion

I just want to make things clear about my cowardice in the face of being incorrect

 

[osh kosh bosh]

I believe you mentioned something that happened in Scandavnia's government doing something then pulling back

So I mentioned the Tories because YOU brought up progressives being in government and in charge and causing bad outcomes. So I was pointing out that things got bad under conservative control

I get you to need to lie to yourself to make you feel superior, but I like I have told you before, people have memories

And there you have it in black and white something that supports my argument, but you need to ignore that to make this argument work



I am calling your categorization our exchange fan fiction

Not what happened at the clinic


And I didn't assume ****, MY ORGINAL POINT WAS THAT THE US SYSTEM'S INCENTIVES ON TREATMENT WOULD LEAD TO BAD OUTCOMES.
You clearly don't want to discuss things in an honest way

Which is one of my points

AND I'VE NEVER DISAGREED WITH THAT. our disagreement stemmed from me blaming progressives activist attitudes on gender and sex
creating pressure fuling bad outcomes.

that was clearly happening at Tavistock.

This is a ****ing lie

But do whatever you want famb

Knock yourself out

I am sure when people return that energy when you are wrong, or mock your behavior, you will take that in stride

it's not a lie, it's self evidently true. I didn't rehash the kiwi farms discourse.
Im not the on brings up defund the police. despite the fact that people still bring that up with my name in multiple threads.

and we don't even disagree that much so I wouldn't even have many occasions to take a victory lap
so no it's obviously not a lie.

 

[1995]

I think these are topics that people actually haven't researched and have bought into them because of broader ideological commitments.
I used to be the exact same way, I bought into a lot of the gender stuff because I assumed the science was strong.

it's not strong and psychologically difficult to confront being misled by people on your own side.

when consertives makes arguments questioning gender stuff, it's easy to dismiss.
when a progressive does it's harder.

That's not it

I'm hinting at the fact that your apparent baseline is "I'm 100% right and one day you'll all be sorry for disagreeing with me"

 

[osh kosh bosh]

So your data points on me running and hiding are

-Me not doing it
-You can't remember what my argument was in the original discussion
-You not even asking me for new information regarding a specific aspect of the previous discussion
-And leaving out a bunch of context about a previous discussion

I just want to make things clear about my cowardice in the face of being incorrect

1. I mentioned all the prominent disagreements where ive been against the consensus of the thread. I didn't say you were on the wrong side of every on of these disagreements.

again we don't disagree that often.

the two things I did mention, the Tavistock I think you're wrong about it, and I think these are mental gymnastics to avoid conceding the point.
two if you didn't follow the Keffals story fine I can accept that my bad.

 

[RustyShackleford]

AND I'VE NEVER DISAGREED WITH THAT. our disagreement stemmed from me blaming progressives activist attitudes on gender and sex
creating pressure fuling bad outcomes.

that was clearly happening at Tavistock.

Dude that is not strictly what happened. I made a post saying that all people as you talk about is progressive attitudes but we don't discuss how incentives in the healthcare system cause bad outcomes.

You mentioned three international examples to counter that. And I point out the issues with those data points

Clearly, the fact that the NHS, and the clinic specifically were not set up to handle the surge of patients, help lead to bad outcomes. The example you post that you feel is such a gotcha even discusses that.

Seems like you want to strip out a bunch of context here

it's not a lie, it's self evidently true. I didn't rehash the kiwi farms discourse.
Im not the on brings up defund the police. despite the fact that people still bring that up with my name in multiple threads.

and we don't even disagree that much so I wouldn't even have many occasions to take a victory lap
so no it's obviously not a lie.

I am speaking generally, not just between us

If you feel you were proven right about something, you will take a victory lap

I think it was M Mark Antony who repeated the same joke a bunch of people has been making for a while, and you went off and were talking about how right you were proven. You didn't go into how said specifically what in the original exchange.

 

[sneeker]

How many of y'all rock earrings, rings that are not wedding rings, braids, and dreadlocks? That's effeminate as **** where I'm from.

Mister Man, do know your way around a kitchen? That's a woman's job and place. A man never sets foot in the kitchen where I'm from. My SIL's husband is like that. Dude will go to bed with water in his stomach if his wife is not here to cook and feed him. I think it's ridiculous.

Not to mention that all this can change within a lifetime. A century ago, the genders assigned to pink and blue were not female and male.

So now what?

these examples are more about gender bias rather than determining factors of gender. while bias has changed over time, it is still separate from what is a established fact rather than societal norm. same goes with jobs but it doesn't mean it should be delegated to certain gender. gender neutrality in jobs became a norm to bring equal opportunity to both gender spectrum but is not a determinant to what your sex is, however there would still be biases where they let me handle certain situations over a lesbian or a transexual co-worker. especially when handling violent patients or carrying heavy loads of equipment. now if I were only a jack-***, I would refute to tell them to do it themselves since we are all employees being paid the same salary doing the same job.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

That's not it

I'm hinting at the fact that your apparent baseline is "I'm 100% right and one day you'll all be sorry for disagreeing with me"

that's actually not my baseline at all.

I say things all the time, where I'm not certain. you guys just overlook those things.
again I don't disagree agree with this thread very often.


it's because I do disagree when I have a lot of information about something and people are saying obviously untrue things.
Im not going to sugar coat it.

- monkeypox was disease that was mostly spread between men having sex with
- we do not have good evidence on the efficacy of gender affirming care.
- gender identity is a theory not a scientific fact.
- you can't reform police and spend less money at the same time.


i take a strong position because these things are just observably true.
and im not going to allow social pressure or something to get me buy into stuff that doesn't make sense.

 

[gry60]

see now you're are doing exactly what ben was talking about turning sex into spectrum like gender.

My question was very simple: where do they fit?

Spectrum:

used to classify something, or suggest that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points.

Nobody is arguing that there are more than two sexes. However, there are some humans who were born with both characteristics. The moment it's been observed, you cannot state that all humans are only male or female. It doesn't matter that it is a genetic disorder. It's there, and it has to be acknowledged.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Dude that is not strictly what happened. I made a post saying that all people as you talk about is progressive attitudes but we don't discuss how incentives in the healthcare system cause bad outcomes.

You mentioned three international examples to counter that. And I point out the issues with those data points

Clearly, the fact that the NHS, and the clinic specifically were not set up to handle the surge of patients, help lead to bad outcomes. The example you post that you feel is such a gotcha even discusses that.

Seems like you want to strip out a bunch of context here



I am speaking generally, not just between us

If you feel you were proven right about something, you will take a victory lap

I think it was M Mark Antony who repeated the same joke a bunch of people has been making for a while, and you went off and were talking about how right you were proven. You didn't go into how said specifically what in the original exchange.

i don't think ive ever said, progressive activist culture is the ONLY factor.
there are obviously other factors. I don't think i've ever disagreed with that. im pretty sure I said so at the time.

I absolutely believe that americans independent entrepreneurial health care system is a huge factor in this.
you would be crazy not to think that

I think it's INCREDIBLY suspect that in the most profit motivated health care system in the developed world.
people are pushing the most expensive and profitable treatment for gender dysphoria.


so on that we agree.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

My question was very simple: where do they fit?

Spectrum:


Nobody is arguing that there are more than two sexes. However, there are some humans who were born with both characteristics. The moment it's been observed, you cannot state that all humans are only male or female. It doesn't matter that it is a genetic disorder. It's there, and it has to be acknowledged.

the fast majority of inter sex people can be classified of as male or female, it might just require more work to make that classifications.

and there are some intersex people who are neither male nor female. they fit into neither category.


but there is not third sex. there is no spectrum of small gamete production and large gamete production.
there are only two sexes.

and again you are simply proving Ben's point buy collapsing the difference between sex and gender.

 

[1995]

that's actually not my baseline at all.

??

You said this less than 2 hours ago

Look at at the end of the day, I'll be proven correct about this, just like I was with defund the police or monkey pox or my other "reactionary" takes.

The NYTimes has already moved towards my position, I encourage everyone to get on the bus before it's too late.

Keep in mind that I'm specifically talking about your takes on gender identity

 

[dacomeup]

Make them stand on this in 2024 too

 

[osh kosh bosh]

??

You said this less than 2 hours ago



Keep in mind that I'm specifically talking about your takes on gender identity

yeah on this, I don't take that stance on every opinion.

just a small very select topics where I've read and done a lot of research on. and the evidence is clear.


people don't want to debate on the merits, because it's not particularly close.
its not like a close thing that can go either way. it's simply true. there is no settled scientific consensus on gender identity.

 

[dacomeup]

Like I said before, this is a white fragility law.

DeSantis is racist as hell

That’s my old professor

 

[dacomeup]

Im absolutely not a reactionary if I was a reactionary I would simply not be a progressive.

Lol you really believe this

 

[dacomeup]

Look at at the end of the day, I'll be proven correct about this, just like I was with defund the police or monkey pox or my other "reactionary" takes.

The NYTimes has already moved towards my position, I encourage everyone to get on the bus before it's too late.

 

[osh kosh bosh]

Lol you really believe this

of course. it's self evident.

if i was reactionary to progressivism, I would be reflexively opposed to progressivism.

but im not, I agree with progressives on like 90% of issues.


there's a narrow band of issues that relate to my specific worldview and opinions on speech, art and in group dynamics that I disagree with some progressives about.
im extremely consistent on this. and it's not some reflexive pose. anyone can see this by simply reading my opinions.

 

[elpablo21]

Double

 

[RustyShackleford]

1. I mentioned all the prominent disagreements where ive been against the consensus of the thread. I didn't say you were on the wrong side of every on of these disagreements.

again we don't disagree that often.

You said In the future you will be proven right, and I will act like I never said anything....

there is certainly something wildly pathetic going on.
the mental gymnastic you were doing to protect progressives on this issue in the past completely fits the bill.


but hey man don't let me stop you, you can be party to absurdities
as long as no one is a big ol meanie to progressives. I got you.



and when it all comes crashing down you can pretend like you were never there.

I asked for previous examples of me doing this, because previous behavior should inform about future behavior

And you really could not do it

So you were making the accusation about ME specifically, so I dunno why you want to act like you were not taking a shot at me.

Like you said "you" in a direct quote of my comment, who else would I think you are speaking about?

the two things I did mention, the Tavistock I think you're wrong about it, and I think these are mental gymnastics to avoid conceding the point.
two if you didn't follow the Keffals story fine I can accept that my bad.

But I am pointing out that my original post about this issue wasn't

I made a macro comment regarding our (America) healthcare systems, and you responded by naming off other healthcare systems and accusing them of having a rot that affects their judgment

If there is some withering rot in the institutions, then it undercuts your point that one reversed course, and the other has been run by conservatives for years

I am saying the political right runs the NHS, that is it. The clinic was under them, so they are the ones that had the power to close them.

Do you know the political leanings of all the admins and doctors there? Because it seems like it wasn't closed down simply for their ideological leanings getting them in trouble...

England Overhauls Medical Care for Transgender Youth (Published 2022)

The National Health Service is closing England’s sole youth gender clinic, which had been criticized for long wait times and inadequate services.

www.nytimes.com

Since you raised this data point, would you like to discuss the issues of underfunding socialized medical systems results in bad incentives and outcomes? Hmmm. Or was I just supposed to see this example and accept your "its the progressive fault" framing

Especially when this was the response from activists in the UK....



Yes, I ignored Canada because I am not up on the latest happening in Canadian health care services when it comes to gender-affirming care. You provided me with no specific examples, again the convo was taking place on a macro level.

But I was trying to undercut your argument here, and I felt 2/3 did the job sufficiently.

Sorry but was this was suppose to be some sort of gotcha?



So the coalition of people are self-correcting

It is almost like there is no consensus held by progressives, even though someone routinely acts like there is for the sake of his argument

You can read from there. My last post was this....

Dude I made my ****ing point about a specific part of the discussion that critics give little attention to.

You moved the goalpost to recenter the discussion on how it is just progressive rot, and you based that argument on a bunch of assumptions

I am telling you a) your argument handwaves too much for me to accept it, b) My point was about how bad outcomes happen absent of ideology

I'm not being obtuse, you just don't like I am not buying the **** you selling without question




I am taking about progressives

In the original discussion, I was trying to say bad things happen even without ideology.

Do you want me to concede that ideological pressure played a part in the bad outcomes in Tavisstock, sure I have no problem admitting that given the new evidence. But my position now like it was back then, was talking about how things can do bad as far as treating trans youth in the absence of ideology. Not just outright dismissing the claimed ideology played a part. I said at the time neither I nor you know the ideological leanings. And you were ignoring other factors that undercut your argument, and still do, that there were structural problems other than ideological pressure with the clinic and trans activist wanted it closed

I dunno how it is mental gymnastic for me to want my point accurately talked about

Isn't that the whole reason you went off on people for making the "The need more funding" joke?

Like why do you think you deserve grace you actively deny to others?