***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[niketalker23]

Son finally gets a car and it's a Japanese beater, with plans to buy a muscle car from Da Obama era but still worried about

da car I drive I had access for forever, I just decided to make it brand new looking and renovated it to drive strong once I officially took ownership over it, which saves me from having to delay my Cuban and still have wheels.

after da Cuban is secure, I'll be free to get w/e I want (although I might delay it a lil bit to get a bracelet)

I love this thread.

 

[boris]

it was created during da oil embargo...same as da National speed limit...

car manufacturers are going to invest in things that make them money.

all this arbitrary cafe standards pushed da US auto manufacturers to concentrate on SUV/truck sales because da regulations made car production unprofitable...you add da fact that Foreign brands didn't have to subject themselves to expensive UAW union costs & healthcare then it's. so they were operating at a disadvantage.

Please post some reports so that we can understand what you mean by unprofitable.

 

[niketalker23]

We all have different priorities, there's no way I would drop 14k on a chain, but live with mom dukes. This is wild

so da logic some of ya would have is get my own place in NYC, and live dolo?..i don't have a family, and im my mom's only son...she'd die of loneliness. IDK where ya from, but we don't leave mothers alone in Latin culture.

Im Mexican and we don't do that either.

The difference is I chose to take my mom out of a bad situation, not mooch off of her public assistance (which my mom never got anyway).

My mom sacrificed a lot to bring us to this country. There is no way in hell I'm going to let her live like a damn rat til the day she dies, she's done too much for me for me to let that happen.

 

[ninjahood]

Please post some reports so that we can understand what you mean by unprofitable.

here's a old Forbes article that breaks it down.

Detroit’s dirty little secret is that a lot of its cars don’t make any money.

While most pickup trucks, sport utility vehicles and luxury cars are profitable, automakers tend to lose money on cars that sell for under $30,000. The trick is figuring out which ones.

Getting the data from the car companies is the hard part. “At one time, we did have info from the dealers on what they sold,” says Mike Greywitt Mike Greywitt , spokesman for J.D. Power and Associates . “They were indicating how much profit they were making on each car. It’s not being made public now.”

Another thing that makes judging profitability hard is that what one company says is profitable may not be in the eyes of another company if, for example, one company measures operating profits and the other measures fully accounted profits. What the car companies can’t hide, however, are the reasons why certain types of vehicles make more money than others.

SUVs, for instance, come with low development costs (comparatively inexpensive designs based on pickup-truck chassis) and a different set of governmental requirements, like looser fuel-economy mandates.

Shared components–especially when vehicles use the same mechanical underpinnings, or “platform” (or just “architecture”)–like those between sport utilities and pickup trucks are the backbone of cost-saving automotive enterprises. Commonality is what, to a large degree, makes premium American vehicles profitable: They are often based on cheaper cars. Ford Motor ‘s Lincoln Town Car, for example, is pretty much the same underneath as a Ford Crown Victoria or Mercury Grand Marquis–not that much harder to build, but Ford can sell it for $20,000 more. General Motors has a similar strategy for using its Chevrolet Silverado pickup as the basis for the more expensive Suburbans and Tahoes.


Most premium American SUVs gross between $5,000 and $15,000 per vehicle. Some are even more profitable. The Lincoln Navigator makes around $20,000 per vehicle even though it isn’t much more expensive to build than a lower-priced Ford Explorer or F-Series pickup, and doesn’t have much more content. That’s what brand, in this case Lincoln, is all about: adding value to something that has a limited amount of real value.

These days rejuvenated luxury brand Cadillac makes money on pretty much every vehicle, and its Escalade sport utility is GM’s most profitable vehicle line (and the bigger, higher-priced Escalade ESV is likely even more profitable, as it doesn’t cost much more to build).

But options are where the carmakers really make their profits. The reason is that options carry an average markup of 100% per item, and buyers looking for more upmarket cars are going to be more likely to splash out on such goodies as navigation systems, leather seats and limited-edition hubcaps. SUVs and pickup trucks, most of which are sold “fully loaded,” make a lot of money for their options. Hummer makes an average of $1,300 on accessories per vehicle. The Chevrolet Silverado pickup–one of GM’s most profitable vehicles–has a base price of $18,936, but the average transaction price skyrockets to between $37,000 and $40,000 because of its options.

Unfortunately for Detroit, its small cars have the opposite relationship between sticker and transaction prices. The outgoing Chevrolet Malibu, for example, has an MSRP of about $18,000–but dealers are selling it for $13,000. Cars like the Chevrolet Cavalier and Dodge Neon tend not to make money for Detroit. The small trucks and cars are commodities with fierce overseas competition, so pricing pressure is heavy.

High labor costs contribute to Detroit’s struggle with profitability as well. The average American factory worker makes about $47 an hour, and the labor rates are typically the same for small and big cars. Engineering and manufacturing costs are also more severe in the initial years of a new vehicle. If a car company sets up a $500 million plant, payable over the first two years, the calculated costs of building cars go down once the tooling has been amortized.

A vehicle begins to make more money after initial investment costs have been handled, but vehicles can also become too far removed from overhauls or their original engineering. The Dodge Intrepid is priced so low that it likely does not make much money, but it probably does better than the neglected Ford Taurus–years removed from a redesign and headed for the guillotine–because it is not being dumped into low-margin, cut-rate fleets like the Taurus. American automakers often use fleet sales to keep plants running (see “Fleet Favorites“).

American automakers’ inability to make much money on smaller passenger cars has created their current lopsided focus on trucks. In 1990, 33% of General Motors’ sales were light trucks, but by 2002 that number had climbed to 58%–and to 65% at Ford and 76% at Chrysler .

Underselling, especially through incentives and rebates–which have been criticized in recent months for eating profits on American car sales–is what seems most to complicate the intentions of car companies, even if General Motors “does plan a certain incentive level even in a business case,” according to Tom Kowaleski Tom Kowaleski , executive director of product communications for General Motors.

But automakers are trying to refine their strategies. As a part of its effort, Ford has created “Total Value Management,” a team of 1,000 engineers who work with suppliers to investigate vehicle components that could be cheaper, or of higher quality.

Ford also wants to churn more vehicles off Mazda ‘s new 6 platform (Ford owns a controlling stake in Mazda). Earlier this year, Ford said it wanted to build ten vehicles on the platform for North America, but that number may have shrunk to five.

GM’s recent alliance with Daewoo will allow it to build and sell entry-level small cars without the traditional cost hurdles that are exclusive to American automakers: high labor costs, plus health care and pension for their workers. By the end of 2003, GM will have spent $3 billion on pension expenses for the year. “Health care rivals or even exceeds the cost of steel,” says Toni Simonetti Toni Simonetti , general director of financial and international communications at GM.

Such platform sharing will help General Motors and Ford become more efficient and flexible, like their foreign competitors who make it so hard to make money on smaller cars. American automakers would love to gobble more profits there, and are probably kept awake at night wondering how. In the meantime, the Americans who oversee the development and production of light trucks and luxury cars will continue, relatively speaking, not to worry

http://www.forbes.com/2003/10/06/cx_dl_1006feat.html

 

[everysingletime]

Some of these GOP heads seem to flip flop harder than professional wrestlers.

 

[ksteezy]

So ninja, answer me simply without citing some link, without Trump, muscle car production would have stopped completely, like every big engine coupe would be extinct, or would they just be made in smaller numbers and still be accessible should you want to drop the cash on one? Or would these American muscle car companies have the technology to pack the big punch of American muscle into a much environment friendly car?...if they can provide you with the same punch while being conscious of our environment, why would you oppose that?

 

[MVP]

When the fat man screws up all these trade agreements, the Hemi is going to be even more inaccessible.

 

[RustyShackleford]

This is why I know that Ninja is full of it when he says he is a market loving capitalist.

Market Capitalist should have the utmost faith in innovators and technology improvements; they believe that it is what drives the business cycle.

It is one thing to complain about lack of variety or increased cost in the short run, it is another thing to worry that they would go away forever.

For him to think that car manufacturers and other firms would not have tried to figure out how to beat the CAFE restrictions is him being a economic "shook one"

-And more generally I always find it funny that Republicans will have the utmost faith that they can reform markets in a way that will lead to economic prosperity for the rich and big businesses.

But the second you ask them to reform markets to they lead to economic prosperity for the lower middle class and poor.....IMPOSSIBLE! SOCIALISM! YOU ARE PICKING WINNERS!

 

[leavemeglazzies]

When the fat man screws up all these trade agreements, the Hemi is going to be even more inaccessible.

Nah, he'll just spend money on luxuries while his family is starving, like these guys:

 

[boris]

 

Getting the data from the car companies is the hard part. “At one time, we did have info from the dealers on what they sold,” says Mike Greywitt Mike Greywitt , spokesman for J.D. Power and Associates . “They were indicating how much profit they were making on each car. It’s not being made public now.”

Another thing that makes judging profitability hard is that what one company says is profitable may not be in the eyes of another company if, for example, one company measures operating profits and the other measures fully accounted profits. What the car companies can’t hide, however, are the reasons why certain types of vehicles make more money than others.

This is why I ask. I want to understand what is considered "profitable". There's a difference between making zero profit or losing money and making less profit than desirable.

 

[ninjahood]

So ninja, answer me simply without citing some link, without Trump, muscle car production would have stopped completely, like every big engine coupe would be extinct

yes, as da Cafe laws were structured in regards to averaging da fleet and car brands were to comply they would be gone.

look up da malaise era...I already happened once.

it's had damaging long lasting stigmas that fuel "Foreign >> domestic" to this day

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaise_era

 

[Mark Antony]

There's V8 muscle cars you can flip a switch and get the gas mileage of an accord. That's beautiful, engineers met the challenge. Sure the slower, more fuel efficient cars aren't moving like they did when gas was 4 bucks, but given the unpredictable nature of the prices that will come around again. Only thing they had to do was lobby to adjust to the market and tweak the number the fleet needed to be dedicated to be ultra fuel efficient.

 

[ksteezy]

This is why I know that Ninja is full of it when he says he is a market loving capitalist.

Market Capitalist should have the utmost faith in innovators and technology improvements; they believe that it is what drives the business cycle.

It is one thing to complain about lack of variety or increased cost in the short run, it is another thing to worry that they would go away forever.

For him to think that car manufacturers and other firms would not have tried to figure out how to beat the CAFE restrictions is him being a economic "shook one"

-And more generally I always find it funny that Republicans will have the utmost faith that they can reform markets in a way that will lead to economic prosperity for the rich and big businesses.

But the second you ask them to reform markets to they lead to economic prosperity for the lower middle class and poor.....IMPOSSIBLE! SOCIALISM! YOU ARE PICKING WINNERS!

Is like fam, we are in the year 2017!!! These dudes talmbout coal mines, rustbelts and **** what type of retro lifestyle they trying to dump America into? While the rest of the world moves ahead...dumb

 

[ksteezy]

There's V8 muscle cars you can flip a switch and get the gas mileage of an accord. That's beautiful, engineers met the challenge. Sure the slower, more fuel efficient cars aren't moving like they did when gas was 4 bucks, but given the unpredictable nature of the prices that will come around again. Only thing they had to do was lobby to adjust to the market and tweak the number the fleet needed to be dedicated to be ultra fuel efficient.

Yeah maybe because I'm not a car guy, I don't see how this would affect anyone to the point they would ride so hard to defend and vote for an obvious BIGOT WHITE SUPREMACIST....but with technology moving at the pace it has, America focusing on coal is moving backwards.

 

[ninjahood]

There's V8 muscle cars you can flip a switch and get the gas mileage of an accord. That's beautiful, engineers met the challenge.

it wasn't gonna be enough...for companies to average 54.5 MPG by 2020, hybrid & EV sales would've had to of been at least 20-30% of all vehicles sales, and V8 cars would've been scrapped or downsized with smaller less powerful engines. once gas got dumb cheap there was absolutely no way anyone was gonna buy expensive fuel sipping hybrids when more affordable bigger power cars & trucks are right there to be had. Customers voted with their wallets. u can't make people buy things they don't want.

Obama Administration rushed da midterm view of 2017 1 year early to spite da process...

 

[Mark Antony]

This is why I know that Ninja is full of it when he says he is a market loving capitalist.

Market Capitalist should have the utmost faith in innovators and technology improvements; they believe that it is what drives the business cycle.

It is one thing to complain about lack of variety or increased cost in the short run, it is another thing to worry that they would go away forever.

For him to think that car manufacturers and other firms would not have tried to figure out how to beat the CAFE restrictions is him being a economic "shook one"

-And more generally I always find it funny that Republicans will have the utmost faith that they can reform markets in a way that will lead to economic prosperity for the rich and big businesses.

But the second you ask them to reform markets to they lead to economic prosperity for the lower middle class and poor.....IMPOSSIBLE! SOCIALISM! YOU ARE PICKING WINNERS!

Is like fam, we are in the year 2017!!! These dudes talmbout coal mines, rustbelts and **** what type of retro lifestyle they trying to dump America into? While the rest of the world moves ahead...dumb

Dudes would rather beg for these unskilled positions to come back than for the education to up skill. Bad news for them is they're not coming back, if so it'll be a temporary symbolic victory. Automation is the way of the future and it only makes perfect business sense. If it's one thing everyone can agree on is that businesses don't have a heart, it's about the bottom line, there's isn't a business in the world that will regress and forfeit profits for some obscure midwestern town.

 

[frshstunna]

This is why I know that Ninja is full of it when he says he is a market loving capitalist.

Market Capitalist should have the utmost faith in innovators and technology improvements; they believe that it is what drives the business cycle.

It is one thing to complain about lack of variety or increased cost in the short run, it is another thing to worry that they would go away forever.

For him to think that car manufacturers and other firms would not have tried to figure out how to beat the CAFE restrictions is him being a economic "shook one"

-And more generally I always find it funny that Republicans will have the utmost faith that they can reform markets in a way that will lead to economic prosperity for the rich and big businesses.

But the second you ask them to reform markets to they lead to economic prosperity for the lower middle class and poor.....IMPOSSIBLE! SOCIALISM! YOU ARE PICKING WINNERS!

Is like fam, we are in the year 2017!!! These dudes talmbout coal mines, rustbelts and **** what type of retro lifestyle they trying to dump America into? While the rest of the world moves ahead...dumb

The 1950's , when America was "great" and you could buy a muscle car for $2500

 

[ninjahood]

and 66% of our electricity is still gotten from Coal & natural gas...

 

[handullz]

c'mon b....

engine specs is literally a core of why u buy a car...it has huge impacts on da MSRP of da car... those shiny badges behind da car mean something you know

I wonder sometimes when Jay-Z was talking bout 4.6 rovers ya knew what he was talking bout

even da most sense consumer know more government rules on car = more expensive car.

Guess we'll have to just disagree on this point, my g.

Because I just don't feel engine power is something that majority of Americans consider when buying a car.

I think it's a very small subset that considers this.

And in regards to making cars more expensive, it sounds like just the BIG DOG muscle cars will be more expensive... 8 cylinder and up.

But the lower cylinder whips will remain in line with what consumers buy.

But meh.. let's wait and see what happens. I'm looking at copping homes / businesses... I'll pass on whips for now.

"We have a lot of killers" sounds like something other countries should be concerned about and should probably institute some restrictions.

It's equivalent to "what about black on black crime"

 

[dankenstien88]

There's V8 muscle cars you can flip a switch and get the gas mileage of an accord. That's beautiful, engineers met the challenge.

Cylinder deactivation is absolute hell on an engine. It eats through cams like no other, resulting in frequent rebuilds that far exceed the cost of fuel saved.

This example is actually supporting ninjas argument. Sure, they met the challenge. Cadillac used the same system in the 1980s. The technology has been there for nearly 40 years, but its extremely hard on the engine and its natural wear patterns. The only reason we're seeing it again is due to cafe restrictions. It's a legal loophole to advertise better mpgs, even though any owner who knows his head from his *** gets their ECU reflashed to hit on all 8 first thing to extend the life of their motor.

 

[seandon23]

I've been reading about the CAFE regulations now and it's pretty interesting from some of the articles I've read. I can definitely see the arguments against regulation as well as for it

 

[ksteezy]

Dudes would rather beg for these unskilled positions to come back than for the education to up skill. Bad news for them is they're not coming back, if so it'll be a temporary symbolic victory. Automation is the way of the future and it only makes perfect business sense. If it's one thing everyone can agree on is that businesses don't have a heart, it's about the bottom line, there's isn't a business in the world that will regress and forfeit profits for some obscure midwestern town.

This mentality is so **** backwards, i gotta say Trump pulled the biggest con anyone could ever pull....dude cemented his name in the history books for sure, he tapped into the ignorant majority of America and fed them pipe dreams.

 

[everysingletime]

I was reading up on an article that explained why Betsy DeVos is so unpopular

...

Didn't realize the line in the snl skit about needing guns in schools to protect against bears was not comedic hyperbole. Betsy DeVos had actually said that

 

[boris]

Dudes would rather beg for these unskilled positions to come back than for the education to up skill. Bad news for them is they're not coming back, if so it'll be a temporary symbolic victory. Automation is the way of the future and it only makes perfect business sense. If it's one thing everyone can agree on is that businesses don't have a heart, it's about the bottom line, there's isn't a business in the world that will regress and forfeit profits for some obscure midwestern town.

People like ninja are down with that corporate welfare. We need to bend all the rules because the poor corporations aren't meeting da bottom line.

 

[Mark Antony]

There's V8 muscle cars you can flip a switch and get the gas mileage of an accord. That's beautiful, engineers met the challenge.

Cylinder deactivation is absolute hell on an engine. It eats through cams like no other, resulting in frequent rebuilds that far exceed the cost of fuel saved.

This example is actually supporting ninjas argument. Sure, they met the challenge. Cadillac used the same system in the 1980s. The technology has been there for nearly 40 years, but its extremely hard on the engine and its natural wear patterns. The only reason we're seeing it again is due to cafe restrictions. It's a legal loophole to advertise better mpgs, even though any owner who knows his head from his *** gets their ECU reflashed to hit on all 8 first thing to extend the life of their motor.

Good to know. What rate of failure are we seeing on these modern era cars?