***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[jape]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/man-...ng-dylann-roof-style-attack/story?id=45555800

welp...trump effect setting in

 

[rexanglorum]

Here is the thing, the thing I think many progressives don't realize, Hillary's message doesn't land like that on everyone.

When you are marginalized by the socioeconomic system, you focus on the oppressive forces that are right in front of you, not the ones doing the major damage in the background.

A single mother struggling couldn't give a **** about our trade deals, a dude that is getting railroaded by the criminal justice system doesn't care about single payer, and the immigrant hiding in fear doesn't give a damb about Wall Street speculation. Many progressives, especially Bernie, struggle when they can't repeat their stump speech.

They way many white progressive talk about social issue disgust me because the implicitly paint them as not as important or borderline inconsequential. If their platform can be instituted, that should take care of most issues.

Hillary Clinton's talent (or skill built through preparation) is that she knows, and can verbalize the most pressing issue facing nearly everyone in the Democratic base. They need this, I can do this for them, and can cut a deal here. She is not about sweeping changes, she is about incremental gains. That might be a turn off for a progressive hungry for revolution to overthrow the horrible economic system will live under, but for the oppressed, it still represents a lot.

I teold all my Bernie Bros friends, when they needed an explanation about why black people didn't "give Bernie a chance" is that when you're marginalized, gaining equal participation (even in a crooked system) seems like an improvement. And that is fundamentally how Hillary won the primary, by not promising the world, but promising better. To progressive that might seem like crumbs, but to the person struggling, it might be the world.

And I will keep harping on this because I feel it goes beyond just progressives doing more to attract black and brown voters. If some progressive keep acting like policies that will improve the lives of the marginalized as beneath them (The ACA, Dodd-Frank, $12 minimum wage) or secondary (immigration reform, criminal justice reform, etc.) they will never gain control of the Democratic party. The Hillary Clintons and Cory Bookers of the world will always out flank them when the time comes.

On the first point, I agree that it is problematic when Bernie Sanders talks about "the major issues." I know he means, let's not get caught up in the D.C. Gossip and let's focus n policy but I can see how a person of color or a LGBTQIA person could feel like "well he considers my survival to be a minor issue."

On the second point, it ties in with the Coates-Obama discussions about reparations. Coates voted for Bernie and he is looking at black economics through the lens of Piketty where whites will always enjoy a racial wealth gap even if full racial equality is realized in a legal and social and political sense. Obama, representing the majority view of black America, posited a sort of Gerschenkron Criterion for black America where full equality would mean that black people would enjoy faster rates of growth compared to white Americans and then racial wealth gap would eventually close.


I do feel like Hillary people were unfair to Bernie when Bernie had a detailed plan, the response was "well, Paul Ryan won't let that fly." When his plans were vague, the Hillary partisans would say "why doesn't he have a have detailed plan?". Where Bernie needed to be more on the ball was on immigration. Hillary killed him in that immigration town hall last winter.

While issues of criminal justice reform has to go through Congress and State Capitols and mayoral offices, immigration is all Federal and almost all under the President's power. If you know that you will lose heavily with Southern blacks, you must at least draw even with Hispanics in order to win the Democratic nomination.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I think America as a serious issue with young white males getting radicalized.

People like Bill Maher and Sam Harris will complain all day about Islam being a collection of bad ideas, warn against Muslims being radicalized and most of the Muslim world agreeing with jihadist in some way.

Yet they will criticized "PC liberals" that don't allow the Alt-Right to have a platform, and ignore that mainstream conservatives share many of the same views as the Alt-right

When someone has cultural anxiety, poor impulse control, and can rationalize their hatred, look the **** out.

And that is true not only on many young men in the Muslim world, but also young white men in middle America.

 

[rexanglorum]

I think America as a serious issue with young white males getting radicalized.

People like Bill Maher and Sam Harris will complain all day about Islam being a collection of bad ideas, warn against Muslims being radicalized and most of the Muslim world agreeing with jihadist in some way.

Yet they will criticized "PC liberals" that don't allow the Alt-Right to have a platform, and ignore that mainstream conservatives share many of the same views as the Alt-right

When someone has cultural anxiety, poor impulse control, and can rationalize their hatred, look the **** out.

And that is true not only on many young men in the Muslim world, but also young white men in middle America.

The Machiavellian side of me is like "well getting radicalized is what young males are supposed to do." We, as liberals, need to radicalize them onto our side more aggressively.

I wish that we would do a better job of emphasizing that liberal policies expand your menu of options in life and low paid, precarious gig work all done with no social safety net serves to rob you of agency in your life. That message would appeal to all voters but young men in particular and young white men the most.

 

[IATT]

 

[IATT]

And speaking of meatloaf:

 

[rexanglorum]

Where Bernie most dropped the ball was just not studying up on intersectionality. While he was not a "single issue candidate, he is most comfortable talking about economic inequality and the outsized influence of wealthy people and organization in our politics.

Through better knowledge of intersectionality he would have been able to deftly pivot a conservation to social justice towards economic justice. He could have linked plutocracy and oligarchy to the legal and social barriers faced by racial and gender minorities.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Here is the thing, the thing I think many progressives don't realize, Hillary's message doesn't land like that on everyone.

When you are marginalized by the socioeconomic system, you focus on the oppressive forces that are right in front of you, not the ones doing the major damage in the background.

A single mother struggling couldn't give a **** about our trade deals, a dude that is getting railroaded by the criminal justice system doesn't care about single payer, and the immigrant hiding in fear doesn't give a damb about Wall Street speculation. Many progressives, especially Bernie, struggle when they can't repeat their stump speech.

They way many white progressive talk about social issue disgust me because the implicitly paint them as not as important or borderline inconsequential. If their platform can be instituted, that should take care of most issues.

Hillary Clinton's talent (or skill built through preparation) is that she knows, and can verbalize the most pressing issue facing nearly everyone in the Democratic base. They need this, I can do this for them, and can cut a deal here. She is not about sweeping changes, she is about incremental gains. That might be a turn off for a progressive hungry for revolution to overthrow the horrible economic system will live under, but for the oppressed, it still represents a lot.

I teold all my Bernie Bros friends, when they needed an explanation about why black people didn't "give Bernie a chance" is that when you're marginalized, gaining equal participation (even in a crooked system) seems like an improvement. And that is fundamentally how Hillary won the primary, by not promising the world, but promising better. To progressive that might seem like crumbs, but to the person struggling, it might be the world.

And I will keep harping on this because I feel it goes beyond just progressives doing more to attract black and brown voters. If some progressive keep acting like policies that will improve the lives of the marginalized as beneath them (The ACA, Dodd-Frank, $12 minimum wage) or secondary (immigration reform, criminal justice reform, etc.) they will never gain control of the Democratic party. The Hillary Clintons and Cory Bookers of the world will always out flank them when the time comes.

On the first point, I agree that it is problematic when Bernie Sanders talks about "the major issues." I know he means, let's not get caught up in the D.C. Gossip and let's focus n policy but I can see how a person of color or a LGBTQIA person could feel like "well he considers my survival to be a minor issue."

On the second point, it ties in with the Coates-Obama discussions about reparations. Coates voted for Bernie and he is looking at black economics through the lens of Piketty where whites will always enjoy a racial wealth gap even if full racial equality is realized in a legal and social and political sense. Obama, representing the majority view of black America, posited a sort of Gerschenkron Criterion for black America where full equality would mean that black people would enjoy faster rates of growth compared to white Americans and then racial wealth gap would eventually close.


I do feel like Hillary people were unfair to Bernie when Bernie had a detailed plan, the response was "well, Paul Ryan won't let that fly." When his plans were vague, the Hillary partisans would say "why doesn't he have a have detailed plan?". Where Bernie needed to be more on the ball was on immigration. Hillary killed him in that immigration town hall last winter.

While issues of criminal justice reform has to go through Congress and State Capitols and mayoral offices, immigration is all Federal and almost all under the President's power. If you know that you will lose heavily with Southern blacks, you must at least draw even with Hispanics in order to win the Democratic nomination.

-Politically, I think the most important thing the progressive left has to remember about Coates' views on reparations is that while Coates understand why Obama and many black people have the view that they do, he doesn't feel the same way about Sanders. Bernie being so dismissive about the issue doesn't gel with the rest of his platform and sales pitch. If there is any mainstream politician out there that should be supporting reparations, it should be Sanders.

Like I said before, Bernie on nearly every economic issue claimed he was better than Hilary. Not just marginally better, but flat out superior. But when it came to social issues, especially regarding black people, Bernie's entire defense was "I'm as good as Hillary". So the progressive immigration stretches far and wide for all things, except helping people of color? How come Bernie? Now that is fine, Hillary and Bernie's plans were decent, but it was fair to point out this inconsistency with Bernie. When Coates did it, Bernie fans and his campaign were dismissive.

Not only that, the major comeback was agian "Hillary Clinton doesn't support them" (so what, you claim to be better than her on every economic issue) or Barrack Obama doesn't support them. And I'm not stupid, neither are most black voters, they brought up Obama as a defense not because he is the president but because he is the black president. To make matter worst it was shameful when the election ended and Bernie started running around talking about identity politics (which as you know I have many issue with), because he used Obama's skin color as a shield when it was convenient for him.

-While I voted for him, I felt he needed to explain many of his plans more. Bernie was not meeting the bare minimum that most Democrats give during a primary. Also, given that Obama ripped Hillary apart for the individual mandate in Hillarycare 2008, I could see why diehard Clinton supporters would want to run that same play on Bernie. Also I can see where diehard Clinton supporters are coming from, Hillary has been denied "fairness" in political campaigns a lot, and Bernie was being handled with kid gloves compared to 2008 and even 2004.

-Bernie left himself wide open for the pragmatism attacks though. For years he was critical for Obama for not doing enough, and for taking half measures. During the primaries he stupidly, and repeatedly ,gave one example of him working with McCain to pass a veterans bill. A bill he acknowledged got neutered, as proof he could work with the GOP and get things done.

He thought it showed that he could reach across the aisle and work with Republicans, but it left it open for:

a) a counter attack from Hillary to say "see, I guess compromise and half measures are not so bad after all, huh Bernie"

b) he for some reason he thought it was wise interviews to give his example of him working with Republicans, in the same breath he says finally concedes Obama faced obstructionism because of his race, Hillary is hated too, and the GOP **** on Bill. Which left me confused. Is he saying he is somehow special because he is not a black dude, a women, or white trash. Or is he conceding that the GOP messes with everyone. Which in that case, may we should lower our expectations and vote for the person with more experience dealing with their buffoonery.

 

[tokes99]

All other variables being constant, women in politics are playing the game on a harder difficultly setting.

The same set of behavior can make a women seem like a female dog while a male will seem like an "alpha." An emphatic and expressive male politician is passionate while a women who does the same thing is "emotional."

It also should be noted that to the extent that there is gender solidarity, there is much more brotherhood than there is sisterhood. Low income men and even men of color feel more connection with wealthy and white conservative politicians then do wealthy white women feel a connection with another women who is running for office.

In some ways the politics of gender and sex is different from the politics of race and ethnicity but in other ways it is very much the same. We have dog whistles, internalized oppression, public and psychological wages and the fact that for dominant groups even a little bit of equality feels like oppression.

not that i disagree with the general sentiment that 'women have a higher degree of difficulty in obtaining & using power' stated above, but i am surprised how much people have entertained it as a narrative in this specific case...wherein she did get more votes, was the more qualified candidate in every way, except for the way that arguably matters most for politicians on the presidential stage; articulating a point of view in a way that inspires/resonates with people...and while i can admit that maybe the 'dog whistles' of male privilege has had more affect on being able to identify with her that i can consciously admit to, it strikes me that the bigger problem was that her campaign made a huge miscalculation about the electorate

I think America as a serious issue with young white males getting radicalized.

People like Bill Maher and Sam Harris will complain all day about Islam being a collection of bad ideas, warn against Muslims being radicalized and most of the Muslim world agreeing with jihadist in some way.

Yet they will criticized "PC liberals" that don't allow the Alt-Right to have a platform, and ignore that mainstream conservatives share many of the same views as the Alt-right

When someone has cultural anxiety, poor impulse control, and can rationalize their hatred, look the **** out.

And that is true not only on many young men in the Muslim world, but also young white men in middle America.

The Machiavellian side of me is like "well getting radicalized is what young males are supposed to do." We, as liberals, need to radicalize them onto our side more aggressively.

I wish that we would do a better job of emphasizing that liberal policies expand your menu of options in life and low paid, precarious gig work all done with no social safety net serves to rob you of agency in your life. That message would appeal to all voters but young men in particular and young white men the most.

rarely is it put that way, but i guess it is a pertinent question; where is the radical left in the u.s.??? is it just a non-starter here in the states?

 

[RustyShackleford]

I think America as a serious issue with young white males getting radicalized.

People like Bill Maher and Sam Harris will complain all day about Islam being a collection of bad ideas, warn against Muslims being radicalized and most of the Muslim world agreeing with jihadist in some way.

Yet they will criticized "PC liberals" that don't allow the Alt-Right to have a platform, and ignore that mainstream conservatives share many of the same views as the Alt-right

When someone has cultural anxiety, poor impulse control, and can rationalize their hatred, look the **** out.

And that is true not only on many young men in the Muslim world, but also young white men in middle America.

The Machiavellian side of me is like "well getting radicalized is what young males are supposed to do." We, as liberals, need to radicalize them onto our side more aggressively.

I wish that we would do a better job of emphasizing that liberal policies expand your menu of options in life and low paid, precarious gig work all done with no social safety net serves to rob you of agency in your life. That message would appeal to all voters but young men in particular and young white men the most.

Nice in theory, but these young men getting radicalized are white supremacist.

A better economic situation doesn't solve the issue. All you would get is white supremacist in better economic situation.

 

[ninjahood]

Trump knows he ain't getting the Black vote. He did that **** to give his dumbass base "proof" he's not racist.

and yet...



in 1998 (album was meeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhh)

 

[gry60]

*facepalm*

 

[rolaholic]

Don't expect the problem of young radicalized WS on the alternative right to be addressed under this administration .

They already said they won't be investigating right wing terrorism anymore

Speaking of which, I never want to hear the both candidates were trash argument again. The people that say that either don't want to, or are not capable of critical analysis. Bunch of faux intellectuals popped out of nowhere these past few months, cats need to sit the **** down 

This cat I used to rock with is a Bernie bro and is so damn stubborn. He takes wikileaks as a gospel and voted for Jill Stein. And he think the entire Russia thing is BS. Like son please cartwheel into a room full of hornets nests. ******* Sanders has fractured the Democratic party into moderates vs. Pseudo intellectual know it alls who have no foresight

Word?

So now it's Berne fault that the Dems ignored a big part of their base for years until election time came?

Not sure how the current state of the DNC has anything to do with him,if anything, he mobilized and energized a lot of the disillusioned Dem voters to actually start paying attention again.

 

[trueprada]

 

[IATT]

So nfl and Texas about to really go at it?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/b...tle-with-nfl-over-bathroom-bill?CMP=edit_2221

 

[ksteezy]

@ "occupy Democrats" being everywhere u turn.

Ironic you watch 16 hours of political shows that praise Trump...

I follow a liberal FB page.

 

[ksteezy]

and yet...



in 1998 (album was meeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhh)

Son that was close to 2 decades ago.

 

[IATT]

But I thought the other ppl were the snowflakes..



http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...kushner-for-complaining-about-cnn-oh-baby-boy

 

[AEA18]

Racist folks love to be entertained by people they hate.

So they'll rub elbows with Black athletes, musicians, actors/actresses, etc. if they are famous.

Spike Lee showed this line of thinking through Pino (John Turturro) character in DTRT. All his favorite entertainers were Black yet he hated Black people.

So trump being on a Method Man skit from '98 means absolutely nothing!

 

[rolaholic]

@Reuters:Stop hurling insults and listen, Pope Francis tells politicians https://t.co/7LpJcNL5mh https://t.co/ySB0G0DjMB

I'm waiting on all the so called Christians in Trump's base to **** on the Pope in defense of their new deity

 

[IATT]

@Reuters:Stop hurling insults and listen, Pope Francis tells politicians https://t.co/7LpJcNL5mh https://t.co/ySB0G0DjMB

I'm waiting on all the so called Christians in Trump's base to **** on the Pope in defense of their new deity

You know it's coming.. dude couldn't name a single verse in the Bible.. then later resorted to just making up one after couple days




Anyways, 2017:

 

[mvp07]

But I thought the other ppl were the snowflakes..



http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...kushner-for-complaining-about-cnn-oh-baby-boy

One thing is for certain, everyone knows this administration will never achieve peace in the Middle East. You can bet it will be a sh**show ending in more chaos than ever before.

Already established the consensus that all deals will be pro-Israel, clearly an anti Islam admin, the mediator for peace is a Jewish guy - heavily influenced by Israeli interest and lastly, 0 qualified people to do the job. Why would a Muslim country leader even bother lmao.

 

[RIP sleazyy]

@Reuters:Stop hurling insults and listen, Pope Francis tells politicians https://t.co/7LpJcNL5mh https://t.co/ySB0G0DjMB

I'm waiting on all the so called Christians in Trump's base to **** on the Pope in defense of their new deity

You know it's coming.. dude couldn't name a single verse in the Bible.. then later resorted to just making up one after couple days




Anyways, 2017:

This photo has don't trust us written all over it

Lookin like a coalition of used car salespeople.

 

[gry60]

@Reuters:Stop hurling insults and listen, Pope Francis tells politicians https://t.co/7LpJcNL5mh https://t.co/ySB0G0DjMB

I'm waiting on all the so called Christians in Trump's base to **** on the Pope in defense of their new deity

He's Catholic, not Christian




































































/s

 

[whywesteppin]

As Presidents Live Longer, Doctors Debate Whether To Test For Dementia


http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...for-presidential-dementia-testing-grow-louder

At 70, Trump is the oldest American president to ever take office. Couple his age with a family history of dementia — his father Fred developed Alzheimer's disease in his 80s — and one could argue that the question of baseline cognitive testing for the U.S. head of state has taken on new relevance.