***Official Political Discussion Thread***

[RustyShackleford]

 

 neo-libs like to pretend like the left somehow thinks Bernie is a perfect representation of us when he is very much a lesser of "two evils" as well.  The guy is terrible with foreign policy and would have been hobnobbing with the Saudis and Bibi too.  Homie called Hugo Chavez a dead communist dictator for godsakes 


The difference is we dont excuse his BS, while the #Resistance loves to explain away Barry and Abuleita Hillary's misdeeds.  Because when Barry was promising to deport  “felons not families” he wasn't also talking about mothers merely returning to see their children, and the deportation centers and blowing up little Arab kids are definitely #woke polices for POC.  


And yaaassss for Abuelita Hillary sticking up to that racist Bernie for supporting the Sandinistas.  The CIA sponsored genocide of poor indigenous and mestizo peasants was so lit, #NODAPL tho. 



But yes she's not a racist, and her presidency would have been just splendid for da POC.  



So who really looking funny in the light b?

I don't even know what to make of this. So your defense of Bernie and his supporters is basically Obama and Hillary are more racist


Throw is a couple far left buzzword and done.


See what I mean about GOP propaganda working on liberals too. When in doubt, run for the boogeymen

Of course you don't. Again you are vastly overrating the actual amount of Leftists that **** with Bernie like that.  He's a Zionist which last time a checked was a no-no for the far-left. 


I just don't understand how someone can claim to care about POC issues but then continue to overlook the impact neo-liberal policy and the continuance of American Imperialism has on POC around the world. 

So know you have moved on to strawmen.

Dude please, you keep repeating the world neoliberal is a dead giveaway that you do don't really know what you are talking about on economics. You're just using it as a way to conflate the Obamas and Clinton of the world, with Republican Party policy. And to distract from the fact that there is a legit debate to be had regarding far left policy proposals.

And I hope the next time Bernie suggest importing drugs, you scream neoliberal. All that deregulation, free market capitalism and free movement of goods must really piss you off

I made post you obvious took objection to, one where I never once claimed the hands of anyone was clean, and you decide your only comeback is to deflect and paint everyone else as some sort of racist. That my objection mean nothing, if I don't explicitly object to this too.

So dude please, spare me. My post were contain within a very specific context. You want to twist it now because I dared to insult Bernie Sanders

But I'm am not bothered, trying to paint liberal people of color, especially black ones as the real racist as the real ones selling everyone is destined to backfire on this "revolution". Tell me how that works out for you, building that board diverse coalition.

 

[whywesteppin]

didn't realize trump follows this thread:

Let us enjoy our friendly gentle breeze:

 

[IATT]

The GOP's propaganda machine is so fine tuned that many liberals don't even realize that it has control over them too.

The first person blamed for Ossof's loss is Nancy Pelosi. Just because she was used in attack ads.

It's stuff like:

 

[whywesteppin]

The GOP's propaganda machine is so fine tuned that many liberals don't even realize that it has control over them too.

The first person blamed for Ossof's loss is Nancy Pelosi. Just because she was used in attack ads.

It's stuff like:

They were showing trump's rally speech on CNN. I had forgotten just how full of **** he is. Every single word. Even the **** is full of ****.

It's futile to try to debate it point-by-point. He has no connection to the truth. He has no shame. He has no intellectual curiosity or intellect to begin with.

Even if he was a liberal champion, I would still hate him for just being an awful human being.

 

[rexanglorum]

Bobby, Rusty is very much in favor of a more just society on economic issues and on racial and other social issues.

Rusty points out a fact about revolutions which is almost always the case, the people who are revolutionary are never the people totally at the bottom of society. Right now, black folks are looking to remove the imminent dangers in their community and to make modest economic gains.

I wish that more voters of color had supported Bernie and other candidates further to the left but I understand where they are coming from and people like us, who want revolution, should support even the most centrists of Democrats over Republicans. Paradoxically, 10 or 20 years of incremental Clinton-Obama style Democrats would create rising expectations and modest gains in communities of color, which would whet the appetite for revolution.

Rather than opiateing the public, giving downtrodden communities a basic level of security and comfort, sets the stage for even more demands by that community.

 

[whywesteppin]

-

 

[RustyShackleford]

Dude c'mon. I get your point but you are playing fast and loose with the details on the Bernie part.

Bernie Sanders doesn't get labelled a racist just because he talks to Trump voters. He gets backlash because his resume of half stepping, dog whistling, an unfortunately turning a blind eye to white supremacy is too uncomfortably long.

Talk to Trump voters, cool. But all I ask is for him not to use coded right wing language, or say stupid **** like being PC is talking about trade deals, or telling me that ALL, not some but all Trump voters are not racist. Is asking him not to do those things too much to ask?

Furthermore, from a strategic standpoint, rich suburbs might be the Dems best way back because they are trending blue. That is because many of the same people Bernie Sanders goes to talk to are so lost in the white supremacy sauce that the near mention of the word "democrat" turns them off now. And the rational for is the Dems are for the brown people, not them. Bernie sits there and hardly pushes back sometimes at some of the vilest implications.

And Bernie could easily get some political capital to maneuvering with if he went into the black community too, like so many in the center left do. Like Hillary did for years before 2016, like Ossof has done, but nah. It is strictly touring Trump country and telling folk to have empathy on a demographic that threw the entire country under the bus.

Bernie Sanders made his bed. His comments implying black people have too much power in the primary could have gotten him labelled a racist or sws. And lets us not forget that when he was constantly caught falt footed on civil rights issues during the primary, try to pain Clinton as a racist was his go to tactic.

So I can't feel sorry if Bernie or any progressive if that remains the go to tactic.

--------------And Ossof ran in the district he grew up in, and most of his family lives in, and made his entrance into politics by working for John Lewis.

I don't see why he anyone going at his neck for running in that district.

- I'm not going to defend Bernie or tear down Ossoff. I just want there to be a single set of rules for progressives when they engage with white Republican voters.

The norms and and strategies for courting white voters should be uniform across the board. Right now they are not. Bernie gets criticized for telling lies and flattering low income whites, in the hopes that they will vote for Democrats. Meanwhile, a guy like Jon Ossoff is free to pander to wealthy whites, who voted for Republicans. When Jon Ossoff is out their preaching the gospel of "balanced budgets" and talking about how government all government departments waste money, he is channeling Goldwater right there.

If it is not okay for Bernie to assure Trump voters that non of them are deplorable in the hopes of winning elections, then it is not okay for Ossoff to talk about balanced budgets (which we know is a code for tax cuts, which be know is the successor to the n-word, when Charlie Rangel and Lee Atwater agree on something, it is probably true).

Now, I'm with you, I think that it is okay for Democrats to engage Trump voters as long as they speak honestly about white supremacy. But if we demand that Bernie tell laid off factory workers that they are privileged, Jon Ossoff damn well start telling well off whites the same thing.



- The Dems are making gains in the suburbs but it is not because affluent Republicans are switching sides, it is because of changing demographics.

As someone, who grew up in a "rich" suburban district that went from deep red to deep blue within a single decade, I can say, it was not because the wealthy, older home owners suddenly got woke. The district flipped because Latinos, Asians and younger people and renters of all races got organized and energized and overwhelmed the Republican base in the community.

Even the most affluent districts have plenty of poor and low income people and most affluent districts attract newcomers who are non white. Your best bet to is move to the left and engage those people rather than wasting your time trying to trick members of the petite bourgeoisie into think that you'll be more fiscally conservative than your Republican opponent.

I did not request that Bernie Sanders go in front of Trump voters and call them privileged, that was never the request I made from him. These people indulged in white supremacy big time but you still catch me saying I want better for these people because they live in economics despair. Hell he can even coddle them, I made specific examples of his line stepping. You want equal rules, fine. Bernie actions would still be more troubling.

-And apply your same logic to far left progressives. Bernie is going around promising these people things he knowingly can't deliver on without a Super Majority, galvanizing his base with half truth about what the Democratic party actually supports, and hope that you don't need to bring up social justice. Look at how that backfired in the VA primary.

I want the most left wing version of the Democratic Party but the truth is that I can't have progressive anywhere, do matter how much I try. But if the voters don't show up n the primary, and the Ossof's of the world win on a certain platform, what can I say?

I would love for the Democratic party to be free from pandering to these people, trust me.

 

[EddieDoyers]

Quist couldn't twerk the banjo hard enough for the populists

 

[IATT]

Example B:

 

[RustyShackleford]

I already admitted the upper middle class, democrat and republican, is a roadblock to economic justice.

These people don't want their marginal tax rates touched, zoning laws changed, school funding altered, they want their son mortgage interest, and capital gains taxes to be low, and would cry bloody murder if we uncap payroll taxes.

They are a part of the political coalition I am in, but trust if I had it my way it wouldn't only be the 1% that would have to make some sacrifices.

---------------------

The thing I tell my most far left friends that it is wrong to judge a Barrack Obama presidency, a potential Hillary Clinton presidency, or even a Bill Clinton presidency on what they did or will do in the face of a GOP controlled Congress. Look at their platforms. Hillary with a liberal supermajorty would be way better than Bernie with a GOP congress.

If Obama had a liberal supermajorty his whole 8 years. Bernie's platform looks like an incremental step not a large leap. You would have a public option, you would have 12 dollars minimum wage, you would have free community college, you would EIC and some sort of wage insurance, and a large jobs bill. You would have ton of things you want, not everything, but a lot of major things.

Once you get someone hooked on the sweet addictive taste of the government conspiring in your favor, you never want to let it go and you show up to vote to keep it in place. This is what pitch Turtle Faced Mitch knew. That if Obama gave people this ****, the GOP would be done as a strictly conservative party because not even white supremacy t be enough deliver wins. Minorities and the poor showed up to vote to protect their economic interest would cause hell for the right.

And their would be sufficient political pressure at all President candidates to move left.

That is why I never conflate so called center left policy with right wing policy. There is a massive difference.

 

[EddieDoyers]

Example B:

lol bruh tried to portray himself as a feminist only to get exposed as a dumb shill for his father

 

[whywesteppin]

Example B:

(my reply, obscenities blotted out)

 

[RustyShackleford]

Quist couldn't twerk the banjo hard enough for the populists

Quist should have found a reporter from the BBC and went upside his head wit that Banjo.

Ben Barson would probably hear the strings move all the way in DC and start dancing a gig.

 

[rexanglorum]

I did not request that Bernie Sanders go in front of Trump voters and call them privileged, that was never the request I made from him. These people indulged in white supremacy big time but you still catch me saying I want better for these people because they live in economics despair. Hell he can even coddle them, I made specific examples of his line stepping. You want equal rules, fine. Bernie actions would still be more troubling.

-And apply your same logic to far left progressives. Bernie is going around promising these people things he knowingly can't deliver on without a Super Majority, galvanizing his base with half truth about what the Democratic party actually supports, and hope that you don't need to bring up social justice. Look at how that backfired in the VA primary.

I want the most left wing version of the Democratic Party but the truth is that I can't have progressive anywhere, do matter how much I try. But if the voters don't show up n the primary, and the Ossof's of the world win on a certain platform, what can I say?

I would love for the Democratic party to be free from pandering to these people, trust me.

I just have to disagree, I think that a Democrat talking like Goldwater is worst then what Bernie has said (and make no mistake, Bernie has said a few things that are out there and are worrisome).

Claiming that political correctness is all about trade policy is inaccurate and tone deaf to white Supremacy. So is talk of balanced budgets and government waste.

Places like the 6th District of Georgia, the Phoenix metro area and most of Orange County, California, are built on bloated federal defense contracts, interstate freeways, an excellent public education system, Federal Housing policy and massive transportation and infrastructure projects. Most of the DNC dotted upon "college educated, 'moderate' Republicans" are affluent entirely because of a big and activist government. Those affluent exoburbanites know exactly what "cut spending" and "balanced budgets" mean. You know what it means, everyone knows what it means.

I am surprised that you take it so easy on Democrats who are basically peddling a version of Goldwater lite.


I respect Jon Ossoff for running, the 6th is deep red and the organization that he built may flip the 6th in the not too distant future. He showed that you can get lots of people involved and that Republicans do very well in large parts due to overall low turnout (which, of course, is induced by Republicans in many places). I am not going to second guess him so much as declare that we can all learn from this experience.

The take away should be that "highly educated" white supremacists are as solid or almost as solidly behind Trump as the much maligned low income whites who supported Trump. Democrats and the people in the center left media need to stop acting like high income, credentialed Republicans are the "good" conservatives and that low income "white trash" Trump voters are the "bad" conservatives.

 

[leavemeglazzies]

"Both parties are the same"

The monthly reminder of some of our NTers who were so much smarter than those who chose to vote for the obvious candidate, even if they considered it as the lesser of two evils.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Dude, you're basically doing what Bobbby was doing. This whole "I'm surprised someone like you" would support such a thing nonsense. The implication is why would a black man make excuses for someone sounding like one of the vilest politicians to every run for president.

Let me make something clear. I give nearly every Dem a break, progressive to moderate, strategically it is a tough pill to shallow, but if I have any chance at any substantive policy to help my community to get done, I must give them the benefit of the doubt. They violate, I have no problem saying **** them. If anything, centrist catch it from me far worse than progressives. But the dudes that come at me with this "I thought you were for social justice" ****, and to be honest it has been numerous people that claim to be progressive, never seem to have a problem when I go off on centrist. If I am part of a coalition, and I know that means putting your faith in people that really do not deserve ****. Ossoff's rhetoric is troubling, yes I agree, what is more troubling is his vague because he leaves it open for sws moderates to fill in the blanks. But I must trust that he will be a reliable pro civil right vote in the house.

Isn't that the exact leap of faith you told me a while back about progressives. To give them leeway on the sometimes-questionable rhetoric and trust they will do the right thing in office, and wait until they violate to get mad. So, I'm confused, was that to just progressives?

However, like I have mentioned numerous times, Bernie Sanders crimes are not one-to-one with Ossoff like you want to be portrayed. And I have to bring up Bernie again because if you'll want to take issue every time I go at him, let us put something into perspective once again.

How many chances should Bernie Sanders get? It is not only the trade deals or paying dumb about Trump voters motives. He is also still running around talking about identity politics nonsense, he also pedaled the idea for weeks that black people's power in the Dem primary should be weaken because they didn't vote for him (no mention of his lazy *** campaigning). And he gets these breaks after I excuse his indulgence in white supremacy. Because his crime bill vote is nowhere near as innocuous as he would lead people to believe.

So while he and Clinton both started in the **** with me, and I could judge them from there, Sanders is way ahead of Ossoff in the line stepping category. So you ask me why Ossoff gets a little bit more of a break, maybe it because Jon Ossoff has not shown his *** as consistently as Bernie Sanders. But hey, he is like 40 years younger, so maybe give him time and he will, and I will be address him with the same energy I do anyone else.

-----------
You want all conservatives to be view the same ok, fair request. No matter the motives, that is fair

Now onto another point since you chose to tie me with his supposed "good" conservative bad conservative stuff. Let me remind you, dudes like Bobby, or any other person that wants to come at me with this **** in the future.

I condemn conservatives of all kinds for their nonsense and indulgence in white supremacy. But when it comes to the upper middle class I am pretty sure I have talked about how much I want to raise their taxes, and cut their safety net to fund one for lower classes. I condemned all the ways they plunder black and brown people. While I do have vitriol for this group, I can more easily wrap my head about their votes for the most part. They are voting within their economic interest, so I can understand why they would not want someone like me deciding fiscal policy.

Now on the other side, onto the other group. These people that vote against the economic interest routinely, just for the chance at seeing people in my community get hurt, so they can revel in that ****. Yet I still maintain should also have a decent life.; for them have affordable health care, that the government should guarantee then a job, and decent wage, that they should have sufficient food in the pantry, and a decent place to live. I get called all kinds of nonsense on NT and in my person life for expressing these views

I could be way more callous and vitriolic towards everyone.. Every democrat that says something I don't like, every conservative that views my life as inconsequential, and every white person that I perceive as even the slightest bit complicit in the system of white supremacy. And you know what, I think I would be somewhat justified for that.

But I don't. The end game is still justice, for everyone, if I allow myself to go down that road I will lose sight of that.

So, while I respect you a lot and I respect your opinion, to be frank I really don't care that me not ranting about Ossoff's rhetoric "surprises" you.

 

[ksteezy]

Watching these idiots root while Trump blatantly insults them for being poor is like watching an SNL skit....lmao

I'm convinced these fools don't even actually listen to a word he says and blindly support him simply because he stands for the complete opposite progress that Obama made...racism is too SKROOOONG in this nation

 

[rexanglorum]

Dude, you're basically doing what Bobbby was doing. This whole "I'm surprised someone like you" would support such a thing nonsense. The implication is why would a black man make excuses for someone sounding like one of the vilest politicians to every run for president.

Let me make something clear. I give nearly every Dem a break, progressive to moderate, strategically it is a tough pill to shallow, but if I have any chance at any substantive policy to help my community to get done, I must give them the benefit of the doubt. They violate, I have no problem saying **** them. If anything, centrist catch it from me far worse than progressives. But the dudes that come at me with this "I thought you were for social justice" ****, and to be honest it has been numerous people that claim to be progressive, never seem to have a problem when I go off on centrist. If I am part of a coalition, and I know that means putting your faith in people that really do not deserve ****. Ossoff's rhetoric is troubling, yes I agree, what is more troubling is his vague because he leaves it open for sws moderates to fill in the blanks. But I must trust that he will be a reliable pro civil right vote in the house.

Isn't that the exact leap of faith you told me a while back about progressives. To give them leeway on the sometimes-questionable rhetoric and trust they will do the right thing in office, and wait until they violate to get mad. So, I'm confused, was that to just progressives?

However, like I have mentioned numerous times, Bernie Sanders crimes are not one-to-one with Ossoff like you want to be portrayed. And I have to bring up Bernie again because if you'll want to take issue every time I go at him, let us put something into perspective once again.

How many chances should Bernie Sanders get? It is not only the trade deals or paying dumb about Trump voters motives. He is also still running around talking about identity politics nonsense, he also pedaled the idea for weeks that black people's power in the Dem primary should be weaken because they didn't vote for him (no mention of his lazy *** campaigning). And he gets these breaks after I excuse his indulgence in white supremacy. Because his crime bill vote is nowhere near as innocuous as he would lead people to believe.

So while he and Clinton both started in the **** with me, and I could judge them from there, Sanders is way ahead of Ossoff in the line stepping category. So you ask me why Ossoff gets a little bit more of a break, maybe it because Jon Ossoff has not shown his *** as consistently as Bernie Sanders. But hey, he is like 40 years younger, so maybe give him time and he will, and I will be address him with the same energy I do anyone else.

-----------
You want all conservatives to be view the same ok, fair request. No matter the motives, that is fair

Now onto another point since you chose to tie me with his supposed "good" conservative bad conservative stuff. Let me remind you, dudes like Bobby, or any other person that wants to come at me with this **** in the future.

I condemn conservatives of all kinds for their nonsense and indulgence in white supremacy. But when it comes to the upper middle class I am pretty sure I have talked about how much I want to raise their taxes, and cut their safety net to fund one for lower classes. I condemned all the ways they plunder black and brown people. While I do have vitriol for this group, I can more easily wrap my head about their votes for the most part. They are voting within their economic interest, so I can understand why they would not want someone like me deciding fiscal policy.

Now on the other side, onto the other group. These people that vote against the economic interest routinely, just for the chance at seeing people in my community get hurt, so they can revel in that ****. Yet I still maintain should also have a decent life.; for them have affordable health care, that the government should guarantee then a job, and decent wage, that they should have sufficient food in the pantry, and a decent place to live. I get called all kinds of nonsense on NT and in my person life for expressing these views

I could be way more callous and vitriolic towards everyone.. Every democrat that says something I don't like, every conservative that views my life as inconsequential, and every white person that I perceive as even the slightest bit complicit in the system of white supremacy. And you know what, I think I would be somewhat justified for that.

But I don't. The end game is still justice, for everyone, if I allow myself to go down that road I will lose sight of that.

So, while I respect you a lot and I respect your opinion, to be frank I really don't care that me not ranting about Ossoff's rhetoric "surprises" you.

Of course, Jon Ossoff is not Barry Goldwater, he's not even close. Also, it is unfair to make you be the stand in for everything i do not like about the DNC.

Forget about the specific cases of Bernie Sanders and Jon Ossoff, I look out and I see Democratic Party elites and the center left pundit class generally being negative about the idea of courting low income Republicans but positive about the idea of courting high income Republicans.

I ask myself, why. Why is that the case? Some of Trump's low income white voters voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. None of Trump's high income supporters voted for Obama in 2008 or 2012 or for any other Democrat in the last 20 to 30 years. I mention the Obama to Trump voters not to exonerate the white working class but to highlight the fact that low income Trump voters seem more persuable than do high income Trump voters.

And yet the mainstream of the Democratic Party has this confidence that these McMansion dwelling, life long Republicans will soon be voting for Democratic candidates. At the same time, they are convinced that a Machinist in Michigan, who voted for Obama in 2012, is a lost cause.

I don't want to force you to defend an asymmetry that you yourself do not support. I really do wonder why Democratic elites are so eager to engage with Trump's wealthier supporters and are so weary of attempts, by anyone, to talk to Trump's poorest supporters. My most cynical answer is that the big donors for the DNC want the party to expand in such a way that it can win without making any new and expensive policy concessions. My somewhat more charitable explanation is that DNC elites are themselves well off suburbanites and they can see the humanity in their wealthy Republican neighbors while they see the distant, low income, "trailer trash" Republicans as being less reasonable and less intelligent and therefore more loyal to Donald Trump.

I'm not even trying to single out the DNC or other Party elites. Just as patriarchy and white supremacy run deep in our society, classism is a part of the American experience. We not only have vast levels of income inequality but we also have a subconscious belief that wealthy people are more virtuous and more deserving of deference and leniency than poorer people.

Unfortunately, this internalized classism is clouding the judgment of Democrats and causing them to waste time and energy and political capital on America's staunchest conservative group, older, white people who hail from the petite bourgeoisie. When we go out of our way to show the upper middle class that Democrats mean them no harm, we alienate and innervate all those other groups who we need to mobilize if we are to ever start winning again.

 

[IATT]

 

[rolaholic]

@justinhendrix: Newt Gingrich acknowledges Donald Trump lied about tapes to try to intimidate James Comey before Senate testimony.

https://t.co/rrZNjwQwTP https://t.co/x2kVk2ULOH

They're so bad at this

 

[ksteezy]

So they blantantly admit Trump used a lie to intimidate an fBI director out of testifying and this somehow isn't obstruction of Justice?

 

[dragicon]

So they blantantly admit Trump used a lie to intimidate an fBI director out of testifying and this somehow isn't obstruction of Justice?

He's not a politician though... he should get a pass!

 

[AEA18]

The president isn't a politician

His instincts are to lie, sounds like a politician to me.

 

[dragicon]

The president isn't a politician

The only difference between trump and a "normal" politician, is that he is more blatant with his corruption and lies.


.... but her emails

 

[ksteezy]

Dude is the most despicable human being in existence....not even exaggerating