...So
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Oh I'm sorry, Did I Break Your Conversation........Well Allow Me A Movie Thread by S&T
Just 5 minutes of me thinking before the Cubs started making me jump for joy again......
Qwi-Gon you simply cast in the younger age of his life, and have him work/train under Count Dooku. You plant the seeds of Dooku’s dealings within the Jedi, and why he eventually becomes weary of the Jedi ways. Maybe you tie in Plageius as the “villain” but also the subterfuge for whispering in the ear of Dooku. Not as malicious or powerful as Palpatine and Anakin, but same sort of premise. Still, you stick to toeing the line, you don’t full on heel turn Dooku, as even Obi Wan wasn’t sure he was completely gone by the time the Clone Wars began. You just type it up as Count is a bit of a wanderer/searcher for truth, and if the Jedi way is really the “right” way. (largely what Star Wars has always been based on) You can have Plageius be the mastermind behind everything but not have him actually duel or fight either “hero.” He could send a team of assassins after the Jedi and have them be the actual threat during the movie.
The sequel may be where you introduce Qwi-Gon to Obi Wan, and begin that partnership, with Yoda having a new(er) role. No Sith to deal with in this one, as they don’t even know Sith are still alive. (Plageius bein in the shadows in the first one is really only for Dooku to see, and he won’t even know he’s a Sith, just another rich man pulling strings of politicians is how the character is drawn up, Dooku wouldn’t even know he was being manipulated.) For that matter, he could also meet Qwi-Gon in this film, if needed, but would need a new/fresh character to be created as the “villain” of the film. Would be well before Palpatine (tho he can be referenced bein a politician) and long before Anakin is even born, or Clone Wars, or any of that. No Viceroy’s, no Droid Army’s, maybe get into some spy/smuggler stuff, bounty hunters and what not. Could possibly give them a chance to re-introduce Jango, under another name maybe () Maybe with earlier drafts of his Mandolorian armor? Perhaps go with the all-white version Boba was originally set to wear?
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Where's Jar Jar fit into all this? He needs a pretty prominant role.
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Kill my dreams 
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quai gone and doo koo were such terribly written characters in the prequels that I have no interest in watching a movie about them
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Jessica jones is so dark n messed up
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michael b jordan is cool but he isn't enough to hold his own franchise.
creed could go on to become his own iconic franchise but no one will ever come close to the heart and grit of the original rocky
rocky had some of the best scenes in creed. rocky is just way more compelling
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well one was a middle aged man living in poverty who used boxing as a way to survivemichael b jordan is cool but he isn't enough to hold his own franchise.
creed could go on to become his own iconic franchise but no one will ever come close to the heart and grit of the original rocky
rocky had some of the best scenes in creed. rocky is just way more compelling
and the other is a spoiled kid who had it all but decided to move across country because he likes punching people
big j 33
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If that's your read on the character than you missed or didn't care about the point of his story.
Creed might not be as compelling of a character, but they can easily make a good franchise about him.
And Stallone has also been playing Rocky for damn near 40 years... so of course his scenes will carry a lot of weight.
Creed might not be as compelling of a character, but they can easily make a good franchise about him.
And Stallone has also been playing Rocky for damn near 40 years... so of course his scenes will carry a lot of weight.
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they did an amazing job of creating a likeable character, they will def be able to make a franchise out of him as long as they dont kill off rocky any time soon
but if you look at his life story objectively and take out the personality, there is no reason to root for him.
but if you look at his life story objectively and take out the personality, there is no reason to root for him.
big j 33
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I would disagree. He's not the massive underdog that Rocky was... but Rocky was almost too much of an underdog to be believable
He's the ultimate underdog so that's why we all love him.
But for Donnie's life story, there's still a lot to root for. He had a troubled childhood, taken in by Mama Creed, didn't have to want for anything after that, but still felt like he didn't belong to that life. So while it was a wealthy and safe life, he's still a kid from the streets who didn't know his father. So he grows up never feeling that connection, living in a life that he doesn't feel he deserves, wanting to be a fighter but afraid of taking on the most famous name in boxing history.
So rather than keep in his safe and comfortable life, he leaves it behind (keeps the iPad though because come on), and goes to train in Philly. Then he puts in the work. Trains hard, does what Rocky tells him, supports Rocky when he gets sick, and then embraces his identity.
You root for him because you might feel the struggle of rejecting the comfortable life and going after something more challenging. Something that people tell you that you can't or shouldn't do. The entire 1st act of the movie is people telling him he shouldn't do it... but he keeps going. Take out the personality and it's a story of someone fighting for what they want, against a lot of opposition and doubt, struggling with your own identity and history, and so on.
Basically.. he's still got a rootable story.. you just have to do a little more work to get there.
But for Donnie's life story, there's still a lot to root for. He had a troubled childhood, taken in by Mama Creed, didn't have to want for anything after that, but still felt like he didn't belong to that life. So while it was a wealthy and safe life, he's still a kid from the streets who didn't know his father. So he grows up never feeling that connection, living in a life that he doesn't feel he deserves, wanting to be a fighter but afraid of taking on the most famous name in boxing history.
So rather than keep in his safe and comfortable life, he leaves it behind (keeps the iPad though because come on), and goes to train in Philly. Then he puts in the work. Trains hard, does what Rocky tells him, supports Rocky when he gets sick, and then embraces his identity.
You root for him because you might feel the struggle of rejecting the comfortable life and going after something more challenging. Something that people tell you that you can't or shouldn't do. The entire 1st act of the movie is people telling him he shouldn't do it... but he keeps going. Take out the personality and it's a story of someone fighting for what they want, against a lot of opposition and doubt, struggling with your own identity and history, and so on.
Basically.. he's still got a rootable story.. you just have to do a little more work to get there.
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I would disagree. He's not the massive underdog that Rocky was... but Rocky was almost too much of an underdog to be believableHe's the ultimate underdog so that's why we all love him.
But for Donnie's life story, there's still a lot to root for. He had a troubled childhood, taken in by Mama Creed, didn't have to want for anything after that, but still felt like he didn't belong to that life. So while it was a wealthy and safe life, he's still a kid from the streets who didn't know his father. So he grows up never feeling that connection, living in a life that he doesn't feel he deserves, wanting to be a fighter but afraid of taking on the most famous name in boxing history.
So rather than keep in his safe and comfortable life, he leaves it behind (keeps the iPad though because come on), and goes to train in Philly. Then he puts in the work. Trains hard, does what Rocky tells him, supports Rocky when he gets sick, and then embraces his identity.
You root for him because you might feel the struggle of rejecting the comfortable life and going after something more challenging. Something that people tell you that you can't or shouldn't do. The entire 1st act of the movie is people telling him he shouldn't do it... but he keeps going. Take out the personality and it's a story of someone fighting for what they want, against a lot of opposition and doubt, struggling with your own identity and history, and so on.
Basically.. he's still got a rootable story.. you just have to do a little more work to get there.
Great post. Strongly agree with this assessment
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i just cant agree with this when it comes to boxing
I would disagree. He's not the massive underdog that Rocky was... but Rocky was almost too much of an underdog to be believableHe's the ultimate underdog so that's why we all love him.
But for Donnie's life story, there's still a lot to root for. He had a troubled childhood, taken in by Mama Creed, didn't have to want for anything after that, but still felt like he didn't belong to that life. So while it was a wealthy and safe life, he's still a kid from the streets who didn't know his father. So he grows up never feeling that connection, living in a life that he doesn't feel he deserves, wanting to be a fighter but afraid of taking on the most famous name in boxing history.
So rather than keep in his safe and comfortable life, he leaves it behind (keeps the iPad though because come on), and goes to train in Philly. Then he puts in the work. Trains hard, does what Rocky tells him, supports Rocky when he gets sick, and then embraces his identity.
You root for him because you might feel the struggle of rejecting the comfortable life and going after something more challenging. Something that people tell you that you can't or shouldn't do. The entire 1st act of the movie is people telling him he shouldn't do it... but he keeps going. Take out the personality and it's a story of someone fighting for what they want, against a lot of opposition and doubt, struggling with your own identity and history, and so on.
Basically.. he's still got a rootable story.. you just have to do a little more work to get there.
to me the need and aggressive mindset to want to give up everything to fight people just isnt a likeable character trait
the worst possible situation would be him finding out he's not good enough, not living up to his fathers name and going back home to his comfortable life in bel air
he even gets his title shot purely because of who his father was, same with his trainer (rocky).
Rocky is a story of a no name off the streets becoming a legend, the american dream.
Creed is a story of a kid who works hard but without his dad's name and reputation he would be a nobody, the american reality.
in the first rocky movie he legit thought he was going to die in the ring
I would compare his lifestory to if lebron's kid grew up wanting to be a football player and being one anyways even though daddy doesnt agree
...So
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big j 33
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It's even more relevant in boxing. That's the point Avon makes to him in the gym.. those guys have no other options but to fight, yet Adonis chooses that life. Same thing Rocky tells him, why would you pick a boxer's life unless you had to? Because he wants it that badly.
And your worst possible situation are pretty legitimate fears and motivations for a character. The worst possible outcome for our hero is finding out he's not good enough, he embarrasses his family and tarnishes his father's name. The same father he struggles to identify with and embrace. You're holding it against him that he's from a wealthy family.. but strip that away and it's about a guy who would be shamed and embarrassed and forced to live the rest of his life knowing he wasn't good enough and failed.
You mentioned how he only gets the shot because of who his father is.. and that's exactly the point. No one expects him to be a real Creed.. he's only there because of his name.. and that's his motivation. Not to mention.. that's how Rocky got picked in the first place.
Apollo picks his name out of a book because his nickname is the Italian Stallion. That's the only reason he got picked. Not because he had the biggest heart or was the fan favorite, but because he was a bum with a good nickname. If Rocky was the local hero who just never got his fair shot in boxing.. then maybe.. but Rocky is a bum who fights bums and never really applied himself and tried.. but once he gets his shot based on his name.. that's why he takes it seriously and takes advantage of his opportunity.
Just because Donnie goes back to a comfortable life and Rocky goes back to the life of an enforcer, doesn't mean his journey is any less relevant. I'd say a lot of us who love Rocky live a far more comfortable life than he did in the first movie.. so it's not like we relate to his struggle. Same for Donnie. just because we don't come from the same kind of wealth doesn't mean we can't identify with his struggle and decisions.
And your worst possible situation are pretty legitimate fears and motivations for a character. The worst possible outcome for our hero is finding out he's not good enough, he embarrasses his family and tarnishes his father's name. The same father he struggles to identify with and embrace. You're holding it against him that he's from a wealthy family.. but strip that away and it's about a guy who would be shamed and embarrassed and forced to live the rest of his life knowing he wasn't good enough and failed.
You mentioned how he only gets the shot because of who his father is.. and that's exactly the point. No one expects him to be a real Creed.. he's only there because of his name.. and that's his motivation. Not to mention.. that's how Rocky got picked in the first place.
Apollo picks his name out of a book because his nickname is the Italian Stallion. That's the only reason he got picked. Not because he had the biggest heart or was the fan favorite, but because he was a bum with a good nickname. If Rocky was the local hero who just never got his fair shot in boxing.. then maybe.. but Rocky is a bum who fights bums and never really applied himself and tried.. but once he gets his shot based on his name.. that's why he takes it seriously and takes advantage of his opportunity.
Just because Donnie goes back to a comfortable life and Rocky goes back to the life of an enforcer, doesn't mean his journey is any less relevant. I'd say a lot of us who love Rocky live a far more comfortable life than he did in the first movie.. so it's not like we relate to his struggle. Same for Donnie. just because we don't come from the same kind of wealth doesn't mean we can't identify with his struggle and decisions.
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lawdog1
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Some widely varying opinions on Creed, but a good illustration of what makes this thread. Real interesting points on both sides.
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seems like your blinded by your love of the character to see that all his fears and life choices are nothing worth writing home about.
every protagonist in every sports movie ever wants it as badly as he does, when being successful in said sport is the characters only option for "survival" it makes the story more interesting it adds more weight to the end result.
I'm not holding anything against him, he's a great character and I cant wait to see his next movie.
I'm just pointing out that his story and rich upbringing results in the end result being less impactful than your average underdog sports movie
every protagonist in every sports movie ever wants it as badly as he does, when being successful in said sport is the characters only option for "survival" it makes the story more interesting it adds more weight to the end result.
I'm not holding anything against him, he's a great character and I cant wait to see his next movie.
I'm just pointing out that his story and rich upbringing results in the end result being less impactful than your average underdog sports movie
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the first act of creed is pretty much point by point the fresh prince theme song playing in reverse
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sea manup
, it sounds like your main contention with Adonis is that he chooses this life when he doesn't need to and that he comes from money. So the whole underdog story and rooting for him isn't as good or worthy of rooting for. I can get it but I think it'd be repetitive if they gave us just another ultimate underdog story or tried to make his story worse than Rocky's.How much difference would it make to you storytelling wise if after Apollo's death over time his family lost all their money? and Adonis was legit broke as ****? I suggest this change now seeing the movie Creed yet but I think you get what I'm saying as far as changing the backstory for his journey to trying to prove himself worthy of his father's name.
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big j 33
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And saying that seems like you're blinded by your hatred of the character's wealth to see that his fears and life choices are still interesting conflicts and warrant support. See how easy that was to dismiss your points?
First you said it was about a spoiled rich kid who had it all.. when that isn't the character at all. Then you said there's no reason to root for him.. when there are plenty.
You just don't like those reasons.
His fears are classic conflicts and struggles for a story. Overcoming adversity, accepting your family and history, struggling with your own identity, etc. Maybe you don't like them and that's okay.. but they're universal fears and conflicts.. which can be applied to the rich, poor, middle class, etc.
And I'm glad he came from a wealthy upbringing (even though he was poor as a kid) because it makes it different than your average sports movie. If I want to watch a generic, sports underdog movie.. I can have my pick. But this one gives you something similar.. but different, and that's one of the things that makes it so good. And I don't know about you, but that final fight scene didn't lose ANY impact by me. At no point during that fight or the final scene did I think "Boy, this would have been better if it was poor his whole life"
First you said it was about a spoiled rich kid who had it all.. when that isn't the character at all. Then you said there's no reason to root for him.. when there are plenty.
His fears are classic conflicts and struggles for a story. Overcoming adversity, accepting your family and history, struggling with your own identity, etc. Maybe you don't like them and that's okay.. but they're universal fears and conflicts.. which can be applied to the rich, poor, middle class, etc.
And I'm glad he came from a wealthy upbringing (even though he was poor as a kid) because it makes it different than your average sports movie. If I want to watch a generic, sports underdog movie.. I can have my pick. But this one gives you something similar.. but different, and that's one of the things that makes it so good. And I don't know about you, but that final fight scene didn't lose ANY impact by me. At no point during that fight or the final scene did I think "Boy, this would have been better if it was poor his whole life"
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im not saying they did anything wrong or should have done anything differently, the way they worked the story was perfect and the creed's son angle was a super creative way to "reboot"
just pointing out that what made the movie great for me was the rocky stuff, creed being a likeable character and the direction, not his backstory which is perfectly fine in this context. just because I really enjoyed the movie doesnt mean I'm not going to talk about why other movies are more effective in certain elements, that's what this thread is about.
big j 33
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I see the point that Rocky's original journey can be more entertaining.. but it's more similar to Adonis' journey than you give it credit for.
Especially since you pointed out how he was only chosen because his name was Creed.. yet the only reason Rocky was picked was because of his dumb nickname
On a related note.. after watching Creed I watched Rocky I-IV.. and I'm tempted to watch V but I have no desire whatsoever.
Especially since you pointed out how he was only chosen because his name was Creed.. yet the only reason Rocky was picked was because of his dumb nickname
On a related note.. after watching Creed I watched Rocky I-IV.. and I'm tempted to watch V but I have no desire whatsoever.
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I would argue that there is a difference, rocky was chosen because of his name, creed was chosen because of who he is.
of course there are a bunch of parallels with rocky's story, but for me it was more in the plot points rather than the emotional connection.
its a movie though, we both took different things out of this movie and at the end of the day there's no right or wrong just interesting conversation
another interesting aspect of the characters, creed is pretty much the exact opposite of rocky's son
of course there are a bunch of parallels with rocky's story, but for me it was more in the plot points rather than the emotional connection.
its a movie though, we both took different things out of this movie and at the end of the day there's no right or wrong just interesting conversation
another interesting aspect of the characters, creed is pretty much the exact opposite of rocky's son
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Great post.
I would disagree. He's not the massive underdog that Rocky was... but Rocky was almost too much of an underdog to be believableHe's the ultimate underdog so that's why we all love him.
But for Donnie's life story, there's still a lot to root for. He had a troubled childhood, taken in by Mama Creed, didn't have to want for anything after that, but still felt like he didn't belong to that life. So while it was a wealthy and safe life, he's still a kid from the streets who didn't know his father. So he grows up never feeling that connection, living in a life that he doesn't feel he deserves, wanting to be a fighter but afraid of taking on the most famous name in boxing history.
So rather than keep in his safe and comfortable life, he leaves it behind (keeps the iPad though because come on), and goes to train in Philly. Then he puts in the work. Trains hard, does what Rocky tells him, supports Rocky when he gets sick, and then embraces his identity.
You root for him because you might feel the struggle of rejecting the comfortable life and going after something more challenging. Something that people tell you that you can't or shouldn't do. The entire 1st act of the movie is people telling him he shouldn't do it... but he keeps going. Take out the personality and it's a story of someone fighting for what they want, against a lot of opposition and doubt, struggling with your own identity and history, and so on.
Basically.. he's still got a rootable story.. you just have to do a little more work to get there.
I personally viewed Donnie's situation as a perfect example of the millennial generation: living pretty comfortable lives, but wanting to pursue their dreams and "prove" and "find" themselves. This stands in stark contrast to their parents / grandparents, who most likely didn't have the luxury of "doing what you love," but instead trying to survive and get food on the table.
I felt I could relate a lot more to Donnie's situation as a 24yo millennial.
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